PR: ECOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIV AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION

[Casinomeister]

Bryan, the issue dates back to the Referspot days - monies that continue to be owed are from player bases established years ago and still active. I don't think that these casinos were in the rogue pit back then, I don't recall complaints during the Referspot days. Maybe I am wrong, it has been years.

As far as Microgaming goes, they are the only people other than GP who KNOW about the volume of the Referspot legacy player issue, they were the ones who mapped players and affiliates over from Referspot to GP.

I would very much like to see Microgaming take an active interest here.

As far as eCOGRA goes, I totally agree.

GP has been in and out of the Rogue Pit since 2006 - with warnings in 2005 (remember the puzzling Neteller deactivations in Bonus player accounts? You participated in that thread ) .

As far as Microgaming goes, they have no access to player or affiliate records etc. These are on the casino servers and MGS would need their permission to access them. So going after MGS doesn't make sense. You need to focus on GP.

It's GP that affiliates had a contract with - they are the ones that you should be focused on. If they broke that contract then get a lawyer or perhaps contact their licensing entity (Kahnawake).

The problem with this situation is that all we can do is to speculate on what is owed to some webmasters - if anything. Are we to expect MGS to act on speculation and boot them from Microgaming? What kind of precedence would that be?

EXACTLY! To bad folks don't get ALL the facts/details correct before they open thier pie hole! lol

I do have my facts straight. I've spoken to the CEOs of both organizations (MGS and eCOGRA) over the phone within the past day. Who have you spoken to?

First and last warning: be courteous to your host.

 

[Webzcas]

As far as Microgaming goes, they have no access to player or affiliate records etc. These are on the casino servers and MGS would need their permission to access them. So going after MGS doesn't make sense. You need to focus on GP.

Just to confirm. What I have boldened is actually fact or certainly was the case when I worked for Ladbrokes in Gibraltar as manager of the IT Department - responsible for looking after the Ladbrokes Casino and Poker Servers.

Microgaming of course have full access to the actual gaming servers, so they can provide maintenance and upgrades of the casino software.

BUT - The Player Tracking Servers ( PTS which then changed to Casper circa Aug 2005 ) - Microgaming had no access to these. This is where all the player and affiliate data was/is stored. Indeed if we needed MGS to work on those boxes for what ever reason, they were given limited access.

So in short, what Bryan has stated was certainly the case between 2000 - 2005 when I worked for Ladbrokes and I daresay it is the same now.

 

[dominique]

As far as Microgaming goes, they have no access to player or affiliate records etc. These are on the casino servers and MGS would need their permission to access them. So going after MGS doesn't make sense. You need to focus on GP.

Boy, I had sure forgotten about that. Trip down memory lane.

Anyway, in this case Microgaming does know. See, Referspot was a unique system, and then GP decided to use the aff system designed by Microgaming.

It is Microgaming who mapped the legacy players over, not Referspot, not GP, Microgaming did the actual migration.

At least that is what the ex-aff manager said.

Hence Microgaming knows the size of the data regarding legacy players, and quite possibly a lot of detail.

There is no way Microgaming is as unaware as eCOGRA, since they themselves moved the Referspot database into the GP microgaming driven affiliate system.

 

[spearmaster]

Hence Microgaming knows the size of the data regarding legacy players, and quite possibly a lot of detail.

Highly unlikely they would know any of the detail. A DB migration would entail writing a script to move the fields from one data record into the corresponding fields into a new record in the new system, testing against a small, possibly fake, sample first to ensure the data is going to the right place, then running the script once.

The only detail they would likely know, if at all, is how many records (equating to number of players) were created.

However, in the new system, there would likely have been some field used to identify the origin of a record, and if so this is the only way that players acquired through Referspot could have been filtered out - otherwise all players would appear the same in the system.

Or, worse yet - the design meant that data from Referspot would have had to be imported to GP on a MONTHLY basis, rather than actually mapping the player information and letting the new system take care of the work. In this scenario, once GP shut down, they also STOPPED importing Referspot data and hence caused exactly what you appear to be seeing now.

In either case, it is highly unlikely MGS would be aware of any anomaly, and eCOGRA certainly wouldn't know any better either. Even GP may simply have forgotten that they stopped importing the Referspot data.

So I wouldn't go apportioning blame just yet. I would, however, pose to GP and to MGS questions about how the integration was done, and how data was seemingly lost/dropped over the last year...

 

[AussieDave]

Highly unlikely they would know any of the detail.

Lets say they don't. But common sense tells you that a high % of these players would have come from affiliates. Either way MGS would have some idea as to the number of players migrated over.

Albeit not an exact science but a start.


Cheers



Dave

 

[spearmaster]

Lets say they don't. But common sense tells you that a high % of these players would have come from affiliates. Either way MGS would have some idea as to the number of players migrated over.

If you had read the post more carefully, you will see that I said

The only detail they would likely know, if at all, is how many records (equating to number of players) were created.

But - we were operating on the assumption that the aff system was being migrated, NOT the player system/servers. There is absolutely no reason why MGS would have to perform any player migration - only information pertaining to affiliates and player IDs attached to the affiliate. So, in theory, the % would've been 100...

 

[AussieDave]

only information pertaining to affiliates and player IDs attached to the affiliate.

What they wouldn't have a ball park idea as the number of players attached to aff id's? The number of DB records? I find that hard to believe.


Cheers



Dave

 

[dominique]

But - we were operating on the assumption that the aff system was being migrated, NOT the player system/servers. There is absolutely no reason why MGS would have to perform any player migration - only information pertaining to affiliates and player IDs attached to the affiliate. So, in theory, the % would've been 100...

Correct.

And regardless of the numbers, Microgaming knows that eCOGRA was not shown the complete data.

And as far as GP forgetting Referspot - LOL!

The whole thing was an exercise designed to stop paying on legacy players from US affiliates who could not continue to deliver as before after Microgaming left the US.

It is the same basis of thinking that is used when programs try to install quotas - if you don't send us more players we will discontinue to pay for work already performed.

GP, at this point, did exactly what it set out to do.

 

[spearmaster]

And as far as GP forgetting Referspot - LOL!

Not forgetting the program - but forgetting that they had stopped doing data migrations... easy to do if you are expecting to shut down a program. Also very stupid, I might add...

AussieDave - I said that the only detail they MIGHT possibly know is # of records - which is the same as # of players referred by affiliates. They wouldn't likely know any other details because the system is automated and by rights they should not be able to keep any of the other data anyhow.

MGS would not expect to know anything more, I don't think they would likely have been shown the results of the audit before eCOGRA informed the affiliates either. There are too many ass-u-mes being made that make no sense.

You can speculate all you like - I have already put in a request through CM for MGS and/or GP to explain EXACTLY how the player migration process was implemented. I'm doing this because I want the affs to get what they are entitled to, and not because I expect anyone to be absolved.

 

[AussieDave]

by rights they should not be able to keep any of the other data anyhow.

Most of this thread is based on speculation, so humour me.

At the time MGS, like right now, today (correct me if I'm wrong) but they collect royalties on every deposit. So they'd have to have some sort of records that they could cross reference.

What I'm saying is MGS would have some idea as to the number of players involved here and more importantly the amount of money involved.


Cheers



Dave

 

[spearmaster]

Most of this thread is based on speculation, so humour me.

At the time MGS, like right now, today (correct me if I'm wrong) but they collect royalties on every deposit. So they'd have to have some sort of records that they could cross reference.

What I'm saying is MGS would have some idea as to the number of players involved here and more importantly the amount of money involved.

First of all, they don't collect royalties on deposits; they collect royalties based on play. This is the same for every major gaming software manufacturer, the only difference being the % of royalty.

Secondly, if anything, they may have a total number of players referred by affs involved, which is not the same as the data of each individual player. Also, the total # of players referred by affs <> total # of players in system. Thus they wouldn't be able to correlate those numbers either.

Let's try and find out what went wrong before making wild accusations and apportioning of blame here. I am pretty sure eCOGRA was not complicit, just naive, hence my first post in this thread about integrity. And I am sure MGS is not happy about this situation either but someone has to find out what went wrong first before they can take action.

 

[AussieDave]

They don't collect royalties on deposits; they collect royalties based on play.

<derail>
Well that's not what I've been told.
I've got that from numerous MGS casino managers & upper management operational personnel.

That's why the casinos changed over to the flash games for bonuses. EG - get $1,000 and 1 hour to play. Before that was introduced the casinos would deposit a $10 free chip or similar into a each new casino players account.

The casino would pay a % of that (base was 25%. The more casinos you had the lower the %) which was paid to MGS. The same goes for every deposit.
</derail>


Cheers



Dave

 

[spearmaster]

<derail>
Well that's not what I've been told.
I've got that from numerous MGS casino managers & upper management operational personnel.

That's why the casinos changed over to the flash games for bonuses. EG - get $1,000 and 1 hour to play. Before that was introduced the casinos would deposit a $10 free chip or similar into a each new casino players account.

The casino would pay a % of that (base was 25%. The more casinos you had the lower the %) which was paid to MGS. The same goes for every deposit.
</derail>

You've been misled. Royalties are not paid on deposits.

 

[bonustreak]

After reading this latest letter from Sean at eCogra I really feel that their hands are tied on this. They were approached and asked to do an audit, they did the audit with whatever Grand Prive decided to hand over (remember they had a year to cool the books) and that is that. I for one am done with it and will just be happy to update my blacklist pages and make sure it contains the newest keywords to match all that has gone down these last few weeks and call it a day I cannot be bothered to spend more time on this.

 

[dominique]

Bryan, have you gotten in contact with Microgaming?

Still patiently waiting, but getting more miffed by the day here. Starting to look like Microgaming doesn't give a flying leap about it's affiliates.

 

[Casinomeister]

Bryan, have you gotten in contact with Microgaming?

Still patiently waiting, but getting more miffed by the day here. Starting to look like Microgaming doesn't give a flying leap about it's affiliates.

I spoke to their CEO a few days ago - give me a list of questions and I'll present it to them.

 

[RobWin]

I spoke to their CEO a few days ago - give me a list of questions and I'll present it to them.

So what did Mr. Raatgever have to say?
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[Tengil]

Bryan, have you gotten in contact with Microgaming?

Still patiently waiting, but getting more miffed by the day here. Starting to look like Microgaming doesn't give a flying leap about it's affiliates.

Well they couldnt care less about their players so what would you expect?

Just keep "GP issue" active, that way at least other casinos will think twice before closing their affiliate program.

 

[Casinomeister]

So what did Mr. Raatgever have to say?
____
____

He's just as frustrated like everyone else. He says the operator is adamant that the audit was conducted rightfully and the results were fair. He also discussed the role of MGS as a software provider and the limitations of what they can and can't do.

 

[RobWin]

He's just as frustrated like everyone else. He says the operator is adamant that the audit was conducted rightfully and the results were fair. He also discussed the role of MGS as a software provider and the limitations of what they can and can't do.

Thanks for the info Bryan, it is always much appreciated as most of us don't have the opportunity to speak to some of these big peeps like you do. We have to rely on your inside connections and also your insight into these matters as well, so just wanted to say "Thank You" for providing the rest of us with info that we may otherwise never know about...
____
____

 

[maxyzz]

He's just as frustrated like everyone else. He says the operator is adamant that the audit was conducted rightfully and the results were fair. He also discussed the role of MGS as a software provider and the limitations of what they can and can't do.

Here is the translation:

He says the operator may conduct the audit in a way whatever they like it to and are adamant on that. He also discussed the role of a MGS as a software provider and gave hints that they will not interfere (either directly or through the e-cogra route). The frustrations came from the fact that it isn't working out as expected.

(nro)

 

[dominique]

I spoke to their CEO a few days ago - give me a list of questions and I'll present it to them.

Will do, gimme a day or two to gather constructive questions that will hopefully help Microgaming ascertain what actually happened with the audit.

 

[Casinomeister]

Here is the translation:

He says the operator may conduct the audit in a way whatever they like it to and are adamant on that. He also discussed the role of a MGS as a software provider and gave hints that they will not interfere (either directly or through the e-cogra route). The frustrations came from the fact that it isn't working out as expected.

(nro)

Postings like that serve as an example on why there is so much mis-communication and bogus BS floating around concerning this issue. The CEO never said that - yet you seem to want to believe he said that.

Don't twist my words around (or words that I quote) to meet whatever agenda you have.

And I'd appreciate it if members here will allow this discussion to remain on track and not deviate into downward spirals of bullshit.

If you want real answers, keep your emotions in check and give me some serious questions.

 

[jetset]

And this poster is a university professor in Italy, ferchrissakes!

I agree, this sort of deliberate and fatuous misinterpretation does nothing to further the issue and get at some sensible and productive answers.

 

[maxyzz]

Postings like that serve as an example on why there is so much mis-communication and bogus BS floating around concerning this issue. The CEO never said that - yet you seem to want to believe he said that.

The rot starts at the top.

Don't twist my words around (or words that I quote) to meet whatever agenda you have.

And I'd appreciate it if members here will allow this industry to remain on track and not deviate into downward spirals of bullshit.

If you want real answers, keep your emotions in check and give me some serious questions.

It's a waste of time. Here is the answer:

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