Powerbet freerolled me for $15,000 and is not paying winnings

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
Hello all. I signed up for Powerbet casino at the recommendation of a few people here because of their good payment records in the past - this was on November 8th. I took the WINBIG1 bonus and lost it pretty quickly, but then had good luck with a larger bonus that they happened to be offering that week. I had the good fortune to get the balance to about $15,000 and cleared the wagering requirements.

After some other play and so forth, I got bored and initiated a withdrawal. They wanted a "faxback" form and other documents to prove my identity (silly if you ask me), but I eventually got around to getting them faxed and scanned over to them. They then took quite a long time to pay me, and when I checked my NETeller account on January 4th, I saw a payment for $2300. However, all my withdrawals were for $2500. I asked what the deal was, they took days to respond, and then responded with this:

------------------

Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting the Casino Support Team.

Your deposits have been refunded into your neteller account. You are under the legal gambling age for Calinfornia (21). Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Please feel free to contact our 24/7 Support Team if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,
Chris
Casino Support Agent

-------------------

Now, I have attempted to play at other casinos where they don't allow 21 year old players, and they simply just stop you from signing up - which seems like the right thing to do. However, I did not lie on the signup form, and Powerbet knowingly allowed me to play at their site while I was under 21 years old. I am over 18 years old, and I'm allowed to play in many casinos here in California, so I did not violate their Terms and conditions about the age restriction.

Furthermore, please see this website proving that the minimum age of gambling is indeed 18 years of age with the exception of casinos that offer alcohol (which Powerbet doesn't, at least not to my knowledge):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Casinos: On March 7, 2000, voters approved Proposition 1A, amending the State Constitution, to allow federally recognized Indian tribes to have a monopoly on full casinos (banking card games, like blackjack, and all forms of slot machines). Gov. Gray Davis signed a model compact with a majority of the states 100+ tribes, which allows 18 year-olds to gamble in Indian casinos. Patrons have to be over 21 only if alcohol is served at the gaming tables and slot machines.

Other relevant quotes:

No tickets or shares in Lottery Games shall be sold to persons under the age of 18 years.

"No prize shall be paid to any person under the age of 18 years." Id. at 8880.32.

All that aside, they basically accepted my wagers knowing that I was underaged, and would not pay me a dime if I won - but I bet that they wouldn't refund my losses had I lost, right!?

Casinomeister, please do something about this. I have emailed their support and will file a PAB as well as RTG dispute (is Montana still the place to go?) and contact the casino support person on the board, Oliver Curran.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
You're misreading the law in California. You have no case. The 18years or older law only applies to casinos on Indian reservations, NOT online or other methods.

Just be glad they gave you your deposits back, and move on....Sorry to be harsh, but it doesn't look good.


Casinos: On March 7, 2000, voters approved Proposition 1A, amending the State Constitution, to allow federally recognized Indian tribes to have a monopoly on full casinos (banking card games, like blackjack, and all forms of slot machines). Gov. Gray Davis signed a model compact with a majority of the state’s100+ tribes, which allows 18 year-olds to gamble in Indian casinos. Patrons have to be over 21 only if alcohol is served at the gaming tables and slot machines. Tribes are free to place higher age limits on its patrons and employees, and can change the age limits whenever they wish. For example, the Cabazon Band of Mission Indians announced in September 1995 that it was raising the minimum age from 18 to 21 for its casino near Palm Springs and that it was firing all casino workers under 21; Harrah’s will run the Rincon casino with a minimum gambling age of 21.

I think you're citing from:

California law also allows cities and counties the local option of licensing gaming clubs, limited to nonbanked table games, without slot machines. There are more than 300 gaming clubs operating throughout the state; most age limits appear to be 21. The only state limit is a restriction requiring operators and owners to be at least 18 (California Business & Professions Code 19809).

This only applies to licensed gaming clubs IN California.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
The law says nothing about being 21 to play in casinos whatsoever - the casinos are allowed to set their own age limits. It merely says that many of the casinos are 21 years old, but that means some of the casinos are 18 years old, meaning the legal age to gamble is 18.

If it said "all of the casinos were 21," then Powerbet would have a case. But because the state allows even one non-Indian casino to permit 18 year old players, it means the legal age must be 18 years old unless alcohol is present.

Regardless of that fact, Powerbet knew I was from California and allowed me to play the site. Let's suppose that the legal age to gamble was really 21 (and it isn't, as I proved). Then why would Powerbet allow me to signup, deposit, accept a bonus, and play on the site?

Would they refund my money if I lost? I'll let you decide.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
The law says nothing about being 21 to play in casinos whatsoever - the casinos are allowed to set their own age limits. It merely says that many of the casinos are 21 years old, but that means some of the casinos are 18 years old, meaning the legal age to gamble is 18.

If it said "all of the casinos were 21," then Powerbet would have a case. But because the state allows even one non-Indian casino to permit 18 year old players, it means the legal age must be 18 years old unless alcohol is present.

Again, casinos on indian reservations can set their own age limits, NOT casinos/gaming clubs themselves. Show me a California law where it specifically states that you can be 18 and gamble in a casino not on an indian reservation, and I'll eat my words.


Regardless of that fact, Powerbet knew I was from California and allowed me to play the site. Let's suppose that the legal age to gamble was really 21 (and it isn't, as I proved). Then why would Powerbet allow me to signup, deposit, accept a bonus, and play on the site?

Would they refund my money if I lost? I'll let you decide.

The point is moot, they refunded your money. If you had lost, I doubt they would have, but right now, that's irrelevant.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
There is also no mention ANYWHERE in any law that says the legal age to gamble is 21. Try to find it, I guarantee you won't be able to find it in the code of law that exists.

More proof:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Gamblers in California must be a minimum of 18 years old. If however, alcohol is served there, the age is 21 and beyond.

And the popular chart found on many sites:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


See under California, Casinos & Slot Machines, it says 18/21, meaning it is 18 by itself and 21 if alcohol is present.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
Again, casinos on indian reservations can set their own age limits, NOT casinos/gaming clubs themselves. Show me a California law where it specifically states that you can be 18 and gamble in a casino not on an indian reservation, and I'll eat my words.

Tell you what - why don't you show me a law that says I have to be 21 to gamble? Powerbet is alleging that I am underage by the California law. As such, the burden of proof falls on them (and you, since you agree with them) to prove that it is illegal for me to gamble in my state being under 21 years of age.

Good luck!
 

kyleb

Dormant account
What 'hackkevin' is saying is correct - when someone makes a claim that you are in violation of the law, the burden of proof falls upon the accuser, not the accused.

I've done some cursory checking, and I can't find anything that says you have to be 21 to gamble in California. Considering that I've gambled at non-Indian casinos when I was under 21 (legally, too - showed my ID and everything), anecdotal evidence seems to support this claim.

winbig, do you have any evidence to the contrary?
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
What 'hackkevin' is saying is correct - when someone makes a claim that you are in violation of the law, the burden of proof falls upon the accuser, not the accused.

I've done some cursory checking, and I can't find anything that says you have to be 21 to gamble in California. Considering that I've gambled at non-Indian casinos when I was under 21 (legally, too - showed my ID and everything), anecdotal evidence seems to support this claim.

winbig, do you have any evidence to the contrary?


I would almost bet the farm that there is a law stating the fact that any gambling done (excluding bingo and lottery) outside a gaming club or indian reservation is illegal in CA.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
I would almost bet the farm that there is a law stating the fact that any gambling done (excluding bingo and lottery) outside a gaming club or indian reservation is illegal in CA.

That's not what Powerbet said was the problem. They said I was underaged. This is not in the law whatsoever, so, they don't have a case.

And if gambling online is illegal in California, why does every single casino operator allow bets from California if they allow bets from the United States? Do you mean to say that you agree with casinos freerolling people: Keep the money if they lose, don't pay if they win?
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
Nope, I don't condone it. I just know there's been plenty of other threads on here from people that are/were in the same situation, and they never got paid, either.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Avoid

This period between 18 and 21 is a big pitfall when gambling online. I suspect the law in California is imprecise because the US does not recognise internet gambling as legitimate, and is trying to make it specifically illegal. The law also seems to give Indian Reservations a monopoly on casinos with Blackjack & Slots games.
I doubt Powerbet have a sound case, and are just looking for a reason not to pay out $15,000. Given the many complaints about Powerbet, it was probably unwise depositing in the first place. Big bonuses at RTG seem to be the calling card of the rogue operator. The biggest bonuses I have ever seen were from the biggest rogue I have ever known, Crystal Palace once offered me over $30,000 in a single coupon! (Followed by another 14 if I lost!)

To be safe, any player wanting to play online should wait till they reach 21 rather than run the risk of this 18/21 confusion.
 

OliverCurran

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Location
Malta
Minimum Age

Hi all,

Well I am not surprised that fraudsters like Kyleb come online to support other fraudsters like Hackkevin, after all, they even play from the same IP address!

Our information is that you do indeed need to be over the age of 21 to play from California.

Therefore we refunded ALL the deposits Hackkevin ever made at Power Bet - even those he'd made previously and lost!

I don't think we can be more fair than that!

Best regards
Oliver Curran
Power Bet Casino
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
In reference to the other thread started by KyleB, how do you explain having the same IP as five other people here at the forum Hackkevin, when you say you are in California, and four of the six are supposedly in Washington? And you all have a complaint against the same casino in approximately the same timeframe? I believe in coincidence, but not this much.
 

umberto

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 30, 2003
Hello Oliver.

Nice seeing you around. Why did you let this player register anyway? Would you have paid back the deposits of the underaged player had he not won the 15.000$? I guess not as you ve been doing all the last years.... So, I can not stand you being here stating
I don't think we can be more fair than that!
It's pathetic...

Have fun...
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
Haha, same IP as these people in California and Washington, right.

Here, I did your homework for you. Take a look at the attached image to this post and see that my IP is not even based in California due to my ISP being a bunch of idiots and routing IP's incorrectly. I am based in Madison, WI if you go by the IP I am posting from right now - Casinomeister himself can validate.

But then again, I guess I'm from Washington too. Just another obvious lie to do whatever it takes to not pay the player his money when he risks his money, has all the supporting documentation to prove he is indeed a real person, and doesn't play from the same IP. Pretty standard, I guess. :thumbsup:
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Actually Kevin, I wasn't referencing anything that Oliver Curran posted, I was referring to the post made by Casinomeister earlier today in the thread that KyleB started.

Yeah, I guess I meant Dave, but you still share his IP address, and he Rachel's.

In fact, the following members share IP addresses:

kyleb
BBKPoker
hackkevin
rachelrae
dddestroyer
leenperkins

And most of these members have an issue with Powerbet (amongst others). So what am I supposed to think?

This is reminiscent of a massive fraud ring from Washington state that I dealt with several years ago. I'm wondering if I dig up these records, perhaps some of the same IPs, names, emails addresses and other similarities will surface. I'm not accusing anyone of fraud here, but there are a number of things that don't jive.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
Hi all,

Well I am not surprised that fraudsters like Kyleb come online to support other fraudsters like Hackkevin, after all, they even play from the same IP address!

Our information is that you do indeed need to be over the age of 21 to play from California.

Therefore we refunded ALL the deposits Hackkevin ever made at Power Bet - even those he'd made previously and lost!

I don't think we can be more fair than that!

Best regards
Oliver Curran
Power Bet Casino

So if this is your "information," why did you let me sign up in the first place? If I had lost my money, would you have refunded it?

Obviously not. Pay me my money.
 

hackkevin

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Location
Cali
Actually Kevin, I wasn't referencing anything that Oliver Curran posted, I was referring to the post made by Casinomeister earlier today in the thread that KyleB started.

And I was referencing what Casinomeister said. I just posted IP records that show that my IP is totally messed up and not from California or Washington.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
And I was referencing what Casinomeister said. I just posted IP records that show that my IP is totally messed up and not from California or Washington.

Fair enough, it really makes no difference to me...I'm just one of those too curious type people. :D
 

kyleb

Dormant account
Hi all,

Well I am not surprised that fraudsters like Kyleb come online to support other fraudsters like Hackkevin, after all, they even play from the same IP address!

Our information is that you do indeed need to be over the age of 21 to play from California.

Therefore we refunded ALL the deposits Hackkevin ever made at Power Bet - even those he'd made previously and lost!

I don't think we can be more fair than that!

Best regards
Oliver Curran
Power Bet Casino

I see, so you freeroll players by letting them signup at your site, deposit, wager, and if they win, confiscate their money. However, if they lose, it's all good and the law's not a big deal.

Good job, Oliver! If that is your real name... (Warren Cloud)
 
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