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Post-wager bonuses, what's the point?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by ChopleyIOM, Nov 20, 2012.

    Nov 20, 2012
  1. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    I don't understand post-wager bonuses at all, for example I'm taking a look at the SUB for the Virgin Casino, 100% up to £100 on a 25xWR, pretty standard stuff except......

    What I actually have to do is deposit £100 of real money, receive no bonus, then wager £2500 off that deposit (and subsequent deposits if required), at which point I'll be given a £100 bonus.

    Now I appreciate that the £100 bonus is immediately cashable (or at least, I assume it is), but surely the whole point of bonuses is to boost one's bankroll at the present time, not at some unspecified point in the future?

    On a bad run it could take £500 of deposits (or more!) to unlock a £100 bonus, which is crazy stuff.

    Am I missing something here? This is not the first time I've mooched on over to the Virgin Casino site, and ended up going somewhere else without depositing because I don't see the point of a post-wager bonus.

    If I want to play bonus-free, I'll just straight deposit and play bonus free, simple as that. If I want to play with a bonus, then I want it now!
     
    2 people like this.
  2. Nov 20, 2012
  3. threescatters

    threescatters Dormant account PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    .
    Location:
    UK
    Just look at it as playing without a bonus, because you are free to withdraw anything at anything time. It's really just a loyalty point boost. You might as well opt into it as theres no restrictions and if you were going to deposit without a bonus anyway its really no different other than if you end up making it there youll get a little boost at the end.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Nov 20, 2012
  5. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    One idea is that post-wager makes the casino safe from advantage play or "bonus abuse" because you cannot use the bonus funds as leverage to reach higher balance because you only get the bonus afterwards. So post-wager bonuses are a good counter-measure against advantage play strategies, ie. ensuring the casino won't make a loss. This also means that the group of casinos who offer post-wager SUB rarely have issues of "bonus abuse".

    If you were to play a slot with 4% house edge, then by wagering 2500 your average loss would be: 2500*4% = 100, ie. the amount you subject yourself to house edge will be compensated by the bonus. So you can view the bonus as an opportunity to play slots at 0% house edge up until you get the bonus (assuming the house edge of the games is 4% and not higher than that).
     
    2 people like this.
  6. Nov 21, 2012
  7. Mouche12

    Mouche12 Kitty Lover PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Translator and facilities manager
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    IMO, the frasing of those types of offers is often the same as regular bonuses, hence luring prospective players. Further information is only available if you move one step further (click for info). I think they should refrase it indeed as 'loyalty bonus' or just plain post-wager bonus.
     
  8. Nov 21, 2012
  9. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    As with all bonuses at all casinos, players should ALWAYS read the T&Cs before leaping in.
    (Either that or look on my site where I always say what type of Welcome Bonus each casino offers... :p)

    I actually quite like these Post-Wager offers and took quite a few when signing up to various IGT (WagerWorks) casinos in the past. As others have said above, they give you the same freedom as playing without a bonus (you can cash-out anytime if you get a big win) but if you do manage to make the playthrough you get a nice reward at the end!

    Also these types of bonuses being "non-abusable" is a big plus in my book :thumbsup:

    KK
     
  10. Nov 21, 2012
  11. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    APs disagree.
     
  12. Nov 30, 2012
  13. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    Sorry to resurrect this one but I'm looking around for where I want to play this weekend (for my late night Friday and Saturday sessions :D), and I notice Virgin have got a £200 RELOAD bonus offer going, but again it's a post-wager bonus on a 30x WR, so if I want the £200 bonus I have to deposit the full £200 and then wager £6000, off however many deposits that takes.

    I also note that they exclude all the highest paying slots on their books, anything over 97% RTP is excluded as far as I can tell. (So they basically treat the bonus as being 'abusable' just the same as they would an upfront bonus, to the extent that they feel the need to 'protect' themselves by disallowing the highest paying slots.)

    Rather sneakily though, they offer an 'eligible games' list, rather than just listing the handful of slots that are excluded.

    Once again, I'm put off. I like to move around softwares and casinos, so I don't want to basically commit myself to wagering £6000 at one casino when I might not want to do so. (Wagering £6000 is not a trivial affair when you're a low-roller like me!)
     
  14. Nov 30, 2012
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Funny how "RTP doesn't matter" was being trotted out as a defence when players were asking that such figures be published instead of kept secret. We also had "players don't understand RTP, such figures would confuse them".

    Now that such figures ARE being published more widely, it is clear that RTP DOES matter, and very much so. It also seems players are not really confused at all, and use the figures correctly to identify which might be the best games to play for such offers.

    Casinos demonstrate this by the widespread practice of having SLOTS now in the "abusable games" listings for bonuses.

    They are actually wrong, because unlike the traditional high RTP low variance "abuse" games such as Blackjack, a high RTP is not the most relevant factor in selecting the best slot for "abusing" a bonus. In fact, a low variance slot with a more modest RTP is a better choice as it delivers more consistent results.


    Are we going to see play on prohibited games leading to winnings being voided for post wager bonuses, rather than the play on these games just not counting.

    What about depositing 200, bet it all on Red, end up with 400, and then going on to qualify for the 200 post wager bonus. Is this now going to warrant confiscation of winnings?
     
  16. Nov 30, 2012
  17. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    Well here are the full terms, you can't take it in preference to the SUB.

    Excluded games are the same for the SUB as they are for the RELOAD bonus, as far as I can tell.

    I can't see a particularly good reason for that, I have to say.

    Post-wager bonuses, what's the point?: reloadterms.jpg,Nov 30, 2012
     
  18. Dec 1, 2012
  19. Seventh777

    Seventh777 RIP Roy

    Occupation:
    Builder, mainly renovations.
    Location:
    Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
    I personally like the uniqueness of Virgin`s bonuses and their built in prevention of breaking the T&C`s I.e played wrong slot forfeit winnings, the way they revamped their V points structure is pretty impressive also, I deposited £100 earlier made 50% of w/r got a free £50 and cashed out 1k, how many times has that gone tits up elsewhere? with 1.5k to wager and a 1k balance and not have anywhere near 1k left to withdraw, try them chopley I think you will like it there ;).
     
  20. Dec 1, 2012
  21. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    I can't believe I'm playing MG again.

    Decided to have a go at the Virgin post-wager SUB after all, (I can see the good side to such a bonus as has been explained to me in this thread), and of course they've got IR on their books.

    Got some mileage out of the new IGT Star Trek slot, and now I'm playing IR.

    Grrrrr!

    Anyone who finds the post where I say I'M NEVER PLAYING MG AGAIN is instantly off my christmas card list.
     
  22. Dec 1, 2012
  23. richie

    richie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Volunteer Radio Presenter & Producer
    Location:
    Scotland

    I quite like them. If I get bored of playing slots & want to play something different it doesn't void my winnings. I always hate that about bonuses being told what I can & cannot play. At least this way there's no harm in playing a bit of video poker or blackjack, & if you win & want to cash it out, you can. Each time you play an eligible game it goes towards the bonus & eventually when you reach the target you get the bonus, with no strings attached when you get it.

    I can understand your point of view as well. And if you want that extra hit on your first deposit to increase playing time on slots it isn't quite as appealing.

    Maybe what Virgin should do is have two different bonus welcome codes. One for post wagering bonus & the other for the familiar instant bonus added to your balance there and then. That way both types of player are kept happy :D

    Personally I really don't like bonuses, seem to cause more trouble than they're worth. I also think by now the different casino softwares online, should be advanced enough to detect if you have a bonus, and only allow you to play games and bet sizes you're allowed as part of the wagering requirements. I mean it is nearly 2013 and this still hasn't happened?

    If the software automatically only allows play on eligible games and to place the bet sizes in the terms & disables autoplay etc there's no more confusion for players and no more of this voiding of winnings and stealing players deposits, for breaking some bullshit terms like 'Irregular playing patterns? Hedge betting, Not being in the spirit of the bonus? (The spirit being to lose I suppose) Use of autoplay, playing of non-allowed games.

    Brand new players can't be expected to understand these difficult terms and IMO are falling into a trap.

    Perhaps it's time to stop bonuses. Or at least have alternatives available which are just as appealing but don't involve brutal dictator like terms and conditions attached to them. Keep the bonuses for players who want them and fully understand what they're getting into.

    But it really is time to move on and come up with other options as well. I don't know, how about gift vouchers, free booze vouchers (they give you free drinks in some land casinos, why not give you free vouchers to spend in your local wine metchants.) Free credit for your phone, prize draws for smartphones, free clothes, caps. Concert tickets, free music downloads, video games, travel etc. These are just off the top of my head. Obviously you only get the more expensive gifts for higher deposits, but for deposits of say £10 you get two free beer vouchers or a bottle of wine, and for Evey tenner spent get an extra beer voucher, no wagering, (you don't have to meet wagering requirements for free drinks in land based casinos.)

    Not saying these are particularly good ideas of mine, they are just off the top of my head, I'm sure good marketing people could come up with better ideas that would work and don't make the player feel uncomfortable with bizarre unfair wagering requirements & not open to abuse.

    Another long post sorry :oops:
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Dec 1, 2012
  25. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    I'm nearly 50% through the £2500 wagering required to unlock my £100 SUB at Virgin, and I have to say I can start to see the appeal of it now on one level, knowing that there's a hassle-free £100 to collect when I get there, although it's clearly an incentive to redeposit!

    Mind you, my initial deposit was £150 and I suspect it's going to cost me another £150 or so to complete wagering, unless I get lucky.

    Pretty good selection of slots at Virgin, loads of different softwares to choose from and exact RTP for every single game.
     
  26. Dec 1, 2012
  27. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    :eek2:
    God damn, I'm so proud of you Chopley! Back on the right track.:p I sure hope it's on video.
    That Wild Desire feature is always a few spins away, am I right? :D
     
  28. Dec 1, 2012
  29. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    £300 of deposits gone and I've still not unlocked my £100 SUB 'bonus', which as you can imagine is starting to feel less and less like a bonus, and more like a millstone around my neck, with every passing spin.

    (Been wagering between 40p and 80p per spin on a variety of slots.)

    I'll deposit again, wager to the nearest penny what's required to unlock the £100, withdraw whatever I can, and then I'm outta there.

    At least with a normal bonus if you have a horrible bust-out the bankroll is simply gone and you can just start again on a new bonus, but on a post-wager bonus you get past a point of no return where you're better off finishing off the current bonus, even if that takes more deposits than you might have wanted to make. (Which is certainly the situation I'm in now.)

    LESSON LEARNED!

    Hopefully Virgin will at least pay me quickly and then I can go elsewhere!

    ----------------------------

    EDIT - Deposited another £100, actually finished wagering £50 up on that £100, so as soon as the bonus was unlocked I had £250 withdrawable, to make a £150 loss. Oh well.

    Towards the end it was just plain annoying, just counting down the wagering to getting my bonus withdrawable.

    I don't think post-wager bonuses are for me.

    Post-wager bonuses, what's the point?: bonusshit.jpg,Dec 1, 2012
     
  30. Dec 2, 2012
  31. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    IOM
    Well I wasn't paid overnight :(

    Maybe I've just been spoiled by Redbet where if I make a withdrawal on Saturday night I know with 100% certainty it'll be in my Neteller account on Sunday morning.
     
  32. Dec 3, 2012
  33. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    In my opinion post sign up bonuses is just another con, as Chopley found out by being locked into having to redeposit more and more just to chase the signup bonus imo he should have already been given. To me its a sneaky method by a casino to force the player into giving them more and more money because their already commited. Very sneaky. I wouldnt touch Virgin casino or any like it if you paid me.

    *Well maybe I would if you paid me :D lol
     
  34. Dec 3, 2012
  35. ace4suited

    ace4suited Dormant account

    Occupation:
    various
    Location:
    scotland
    Post wagering bonuses have loads of advantages over other bonuses. You are basically free to do what you like and it wont void your winnnings. This includes withdrawing if you have a good run or want to switch to another casino and playing games that would otherwise be risking voiding your bonus. It is an easy option for people who want to play casinos rather than read small print. Players are under no compulsion to re-deposit to make wager requirements and I know of casinos in the past where a new deposit would void your bonus so their terms are fair and pretty clear.

    One of the best things about getting the bonus up front is that it gives you a bigger bank balance to play with and enables people to play for bigger stakes than would otherwise be sensible. I do think if you are playing a post WR bonus then you need to give serious thought to playing lower stake games and you certainly want to play lower variance games if you want to minimise the chances that you will need to make a fresh deposit.
     
  36. Dec 3, 2012
  37. Jazzbaz

    Jazzbaz Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    searching
    Location:
    Finland
    Post-wager bs

    I learned my lesson a few years back at one casino when wagering a 35xb post-wager bonus. It was a 100% match upto 100€ and Black Jack was still allowed in those days. That sinking feeling that you get when you have lost that first 100€ of your own money and have to deposit more or kiss it goodbye is what put me off for good. If only I had realised at that moment to kiss it goodbye. But no, I lost nearly 450€ all in all before I got that measly 100€ back. Who would have thought that I'd get the worst run of my life on BJ by far at the precise time when I desperately needed the opposite.

    Never again.
     
  38. Dec 3, 2012
  39. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    Which exactly reinforces my point. People should walk away if they lose their initial deposit. That would be the appropriate thing to do. In this case the customer then receives nothing. No bonus of any kind. Nil. Kaput unless you chase the bonus by re depositing. And in some cases you have to redeposit twice, sometimes three times maybe even more just to get your hands on the initial bonus. A lot of people continue `chasing` because if they dont they just feel cheated. I know I fell for this trick in my early days gaming online.

    Its hard for many people to just `walk away` from a free 100 quid bonus they KNOW is sat waiting for them and many i imagine feel that once commited they have to continue and this is EXACTY what the casino is hoping for.

    This is fine for the players who regularly play without bonuses or enjoy being unrestrained on what games they can play or when they can cash out, but for the players who enjoy using bonuses to further their playtime or players who have little cash at their disposal and who maybe cannot afford to redeposit, these type of bonus offerings prey on them and are imo shady at best.
     

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