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playerwin VS InterCasino

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by playerwin, Feb 6, 2015.

    Feb 6, 2015
  1. playerwin

    playerwin Banned User : PAB fraud PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Cars
    Location:
    Sweden
    It has been couple of years I am playing at Inter Casino and never had a problem to be paid until this big win.

    I was offered bonuses of 50% and 60% to my email. I made couple of deposits and got lucky playing Wonder Women ending when I completed the bonus requirement at 34,000 EUR.

    I moved to Batman slot and it also went well after 3 days of Batman I reached around 38,000 and cashed out 3000.

    The day after I wanted to continue playing but my account was locked. When I emailed them they replied with the subject "advanced verification required", I had to send then notarized documents.

    So far I haven't been paid, when I email them they say they are waiting for management decision and it was very hard to convince their customer service to call and on the phone they just promised an answer this week but nothing came.
     
  2. Feb 6, 2015
  3. homerbert

    homerbert I-Gaming Industry Representative webby

    Occupation:
    nothing :)
    Location:
    middle of Europe!
    5 people like this.
  4. Feb 6, 2015
  5. playerwin

    playerwin Banned User : PAB fraud PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Cars
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes, I think I won first time last year and they asked for documents and now they asked for certified documents which I also sent.
     
  6. Feb 6, 2015
  7. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Yes, if you were already verified it would appear the size of the win has triggered an extra demand for notarized. I hate that tactic, but at least you're locked out so cannot reverse it. A big win should be a time for celebration as opposed to stress and delay. If they've verified you for smaller payouts I can't see what difference notarized makes.
    Taken at face value, it's a poor way to treat the player.:(
     
    9 people like this.
  8. Feb 6, 2015
  9. paul@bgo

    paul@bgo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Operations Manager
    Location:
    Norwich, UK
    Not normally one to comment on issues with other operators, but I think you raise a good point/query here and all I can say is, quite often those of us playing by the rules do this due to financial regulations. Remember we're more heavily regulated than any bank, so when big money changes hands it's not always because we're just being difficult :)

    Good luck with your withdrawal OP and enjoy your winnings!
     
    14 people like this.
  10. Feb 7, 2015
  11. redsfan

    redsfan Experienced Member webby

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    bishop auckland
    Think its more to dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s with regards money laundering. To comply with their licence, an account holder has to be verified over 18 within 72 hours. Under money laundering regulations, the magic figure is €15,000 euros and if you do not display due diligence then you are as guilty as the alleged launderer. I would GUESS that is what this is.
     
  12. Feb 8, 2015
  13. Kobi Partners

    Kobi Partners Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Representative of InterCasino
    Location:
    Germany
    Answer from InterCasino

    I am disappointed to hear that our Customer Services Team have not responded to you, could you please email our support team (Intersupport@intercasino.com) with your user details and I will personally look at it first thing on Monday morning as I am not aware of any Swedish player with their account on hold.

    As I am sure you and all Casinomeister users are aware InterCasino are one of the oldest, most respected and honest casino's online. Our modus operandi is to pay customers when they win, we do however also ensure that we maintain a clean casino from any money laundering suspicion or bonus abuse, in this way we are able to offer daily bonuses to our genuine customers.

    I will look personally at your situation, when you identify yourself via your support email and reply back very shortly

    Sincerely

    Vince
    Casino Manager
     
    7 people like this.
  14. Feb 8, 2015
  15. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I don't see this at all. Either you're verified or you're not. Due diligence should be exercised and player credentials established at FIRST KYC stage. Once verified to receive cash-outs you should be verified for £30 or £30,000.

    You cannot have a 2-tier system that works like this:
    "The player seems to have passed checks so we can pay him accumulated withdrawals of over £3k or any amount not exceeding £15k."

    (Then the player wins £38k)

    "Ermm...well that's convenient, we can add another layer of BS to delay things and asked for notarized ID, despite the player being OK for £10k of withdrawals in the last year. What? He's failed notarized checks? Oh dear! We'd better report ourselves to the authorities for paying all the previous £10k to him over the last year."

    What bollocks. It's still a tactic usually reserved to be abused by Playtech/Crypto casinos when players win big, or other rogue outfits. Send your personal notarized ID to a shack in some remote Pacific island which will takes weeks, and by then hopefully you'll have reversed your w/d, or been so put-off and disheartened that you didn't even bother sending the notarized and reversed it anyway.

    Plenty of players here have won amounts far larger and been paid quite fast without additional requests for notarized.
     
    10 people like this.
  16. Feb 8, 2015
  17. redsfan

    redsfan Experienced Member webby

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    bishop auckland
    Im confused? Your the advocate of Terms and Conditions but now you say its bollocks as you call it. Their terms allow them to ask for the documentation so whats the problem. It says we may, in our absolute discretion, refuse to process any Transfer Transaction for any reason whatsoever or modify the means by which users of the ECash Services may affect a Transfer Transaction from time to time. We reserve the right to require you to provide verification of identity, age, place of residence and such other information as it may deem appropriate.

    In your what bollocks speach, you say "Send your personal notarized ID to a shack in some remote Pacific island which will takes weeks, and by then hopefully you'll have reversed your w/d, or been so put-off and disheartened that you didn't even bother sending the notarized and reversed it anyway." You seem to have missed the point on this one because you have already wrote that "but at least you're locked out so cannot reverse it" so that can not be the reason, can it?

    End of the day, we are all guessing so lets see what Monday brings.
     
  18. Feb 8, 2015
  19. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    No. My reply you quote here is a general opinion on subsequent demands for notarized, and the usual player-unfriendly delays. As you said I already dealt with Intercasino and mentioned that the player couldn't reverse it. Intercasino aren't a rogue outfit so all being well the player will be paid, unfortunately with a long delay and some expense on his part.

    I am an advocate of reading the T&C's not unreasonable T&C's. Please distinguish between the two. There is a big difference.

    If you look around there are a fair few unreasonable T&C's that CM themselves will not accept if a casino is to be accredited, for example 'spirit of the bonus' clauses or 'vague FU' clauses. I also spoke to Bryan the other day regarding casinos being made to list their sister sites clearly in their BONUS section so as not to use duplicity as an excuse not to pay players for taking a bonus at a sister site. So I am indeed an advocate of patent and open T&C's that are player-friendly. No bollocks in them - as I will put it again.:)

    Most modern countries offer ways of quickly and cheaply checking and being pretty damn sure of a player's credentials, whether electoral lists, credit agencies or information services. Sweden I'm sure is one. Yes, there are some less advanced countries which some casinos allow play from so they may need legally-sourced ID but to pay a player some withdrawals and then hit them with it when they win big is pretty poor in my view. And Sweden is not an undeveloped nation.
     
    4 people like this.
  20. Feb 8, 2015
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Obviously they have, and it seems so do many other casinos. Some don't even verify at all until the magic figure of around €2000 is hit.

    The problem for players is that the advanced verification stage is managed in such a way that the player is pretty sure they have been branded a fraud by the casino, and thus they are asked to jump through the most ridiculous hoops after which they feel the casino will find a set of reasons for not paying. The attitude of support staff can add to this impression by being deliberately "unhelpful" to the player during the process.

    Verification is SUPPOSED to be a "one time only" process, and this is how it is sold to players (even if this is wrong). If it's NOT a "one time only process" due to the way the regulations work, then don't manipulate players into thinking it is through slick marketing and vague guides on the website. If players are properly informed from the outset, then these advanced verifications for the bigger wins would not create such a negative feeling among players.

    We are also being deliberately mislead over the issue of notarised documents. We are constantly being told that this is "very rare", and left with the impression it isn't something to worry about. Yet from the posts in the forum, requests for notarised documents are far from rare, in fact it's becoming commonplace, especially when larger wins are involved. Perhaps if players knew the truth about what the regulations require, they would be deterred from playing from fear that they will not be able to pass through the process easily.

    Currently, it's being sold as the simple process of sending in 1x photo ID and 1x proof of address, and if used, back and front of any card. This is also being sold as a simple process that the player can manage on their own with a camera or scanner, rather than something that will require them to get in touch with their local lawyer/notary office, bank, employer, etc.

    It seems to be that the current system is no longer fit for purpose because it has so many loopholes for the fraudsters to attack that the process has become near impossible for many genuine players who put through enough money to trigger the "advanced" stage of compliance.

    The more exacting requirements for a scanned document are due to previous attacks by fraudsters, and now it seems that casinos are favouring photos over scans, whereas in the past, scans were preferred with photos often getting rejected for being "unclear".

    I don't buy that the paying OUT of a big win has much to do with "money laundering". It's the amount of money that goes IN that matters, so advanced verification should really be triggered once a set amount has been deposited regardless of the outcome, rather than when a significant big win is withdrawn.

    Despite the claim that banks are less heavily regulated, it seems they don't open accounts purely through email. They usually post out a form that must be filled in and sent back (proves you live there if you received it and sent it back). If they need to see your ID documents, you have to go into a branch and show them, not take a photo of them and email them to the bank. If not, you have to POST the documents, either the original or "certified copy" to the bank's HQ. UK banks will use electronic verification for most UK residents, so often we don't realise the extent to which we are checked.

    Casinos are still in the "stone age" when it comes to the KYC process as they STILL rely on players making their own scans or photos of the documents, and simply emailing the files to the casino. It's hardly surprising therefore that the fraudsters have seen them as an "easy target". It also seems that they are heavily reliant on the document itself, and lack the ability to undertake checks based on the information shown on the document, such as checking with the utility company that a bill is legit, or with a bank that the account is legit. If they were cross checking the information, they would not have to worry so much about the quality of the document reproduction itself, as any made up information would be picked up when checking with the utility company or the bank.

    For UK players at least, addresses can be validated too, via an electoral roll check. Unless a player has moved house within the last year, this should be an accurate check, and it's better than a utility bill as EVERY adult in a house is listed and validated, not just the bill payer.

    I also wonder why casinos don't take the very simple approach to address validation of sending out a letter (with a unique code) to the player at their registered address, and requiring them to enter this code in order to validate that they actually live there and can receive post. No amount of photoshopping expertise can overcome this obstacle to getting away with using a false address.
     
    10 people like this.
  22. Feb 8, 2015
  23. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    I also wonder why casinos don't take the very simple approach to address validation of sending out a letter (with a unique code) to the player at their registered address, and requiring them to enter this code in order to validate that they actually live there and can receive post. No amount of photoshopping expertise can overcome this obstacle to getting away with using a false address.[/QUOTE]

    Very, very Good Idea, with the amount of various 'Information databases' they apparently hold about us in the UK, surely there would also be a nice simple(ish) way of also maybe entering part of a passport or driving licence (or birth certificate for those who hold neither) number to complete the age/ID part of the KYC process, avoids any e-mails and could be made 'as secure as they say' via the banking section of the casinos.

    ** Apologies VWM, thought I'd clicked 'reply with quote' but obviously didn't :p ***
     
  24. Feb 8, 2015
  25. redsfan

    redsfan Experienced Member webby

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    bishop auckland
    I note the OP was online at 6:30am but not replied. Wonder if "Vince" can confirm if he has been in touch?
     
  26. Feb 8, 2015
  27. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    When I first joined Bet365, I was able to make a first deposit without any verification, but in order to make a second deposit I had to wait for the post and a snail mail code. I was also asked at one point if they could telephone me, which we did.
     
  28. Feb 9, 2015
  29. playerwin

    playerwin Banned User : PAB fraud PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Cars
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes I contacted the casino manager
     
  30. Feb 10, 2015
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Very, very Good Idea, with the amount of various 'Information databases' they apparently hold about us in the UK, surely there would also be a nice simple(ish) way of also maybe entering part of a passport or driving licence (or birth certificate for those who hold neither) number to complete the age/ID part of the KYC process, avoids any e-mails and could be made 'as secure as they say' via the banking section of the casinos.

    ** Apologies VWM, thought I'd clicked 'reply with quote' but obviously didn't :p ***[/QUOTE]

    This approach was pioneered around 2004 by............ INTERCASINO!!! It was also used by Lasseters, in that the first withdrawal was paid by cheque, and it came with a unique code that could upgrade the account so that withdrawals in future could be via a number of methods. It seems that in 2004 it was acceptable for players to wait till they received the code before they could make a withdrawal, but now it isn't. Casinos also paid out FASTER on average in 2004 than they did in 2014.

    Now it seems this has been "outsourced" to banks and utility companies, which is surely MORE open to fraud than when the casinos prepared and sent the letters.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Feb 10, 2015
  33. Vince Inter

    Vince Inter Dormant account

    Occupation:
    InterCasino Representative
    Location:
    Malta
    As requested, the customer in question sent us his details directly and I have now had time to investigate the complaint and reply directly to him. (the content of which will remain confidential)

    InterCasino is an old, established and well known to be an honest casino which always pays out when a player wins, it is also at the core of our ethos and morals. We are one of the most generous online casinos in the world, offering a bonus every day during the month of February. However, in order to be able to offer such bonuses to our genuine players, we have to take a tough stance on clear bonus abuse/r or multiple accounts with the purpose of using our bonuses to maximise their wins. This is unfair on us as a business and unfair on our genuine players who suffer from less attractive bonus offers. We therefore strictly monitor any bonus abuse and through our terms and conditions in order prevent such players from abusing them.

    I see this as a very positive thing for an online casino to do, as there are a very small proportion of players who purposely abuse the casino’s generosity. Not for the enjoyment, but rather with the express of always profiting over time, not via a lucky big win. In which we at InterCasino do love, but via an honest process of mathematical probability, which over time will always mean they are on top.

    Vince
    Casino Manager
    InterCasino.com
     
  34. Feb 10, 2015
  35. homerbert

    homerbert I-Gaming Industry Representative webby

    Occupation:
    nothing :)
    Location:
    middle of Europe!
    How to abuse any online slot without any special feature which can be played after some time. Really, how? No matter what is your bet size, there is still RTP envolved. So not need to say things about that.
     
  36. Feb 10, 2015
  37. playerwin

    playerwin Banned User : PAB fraud PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Cars
    Location:
    Sweden
    Dear Fuat

    Thank you for sending your details to our customer services team. I apologise for the slight delay in replying to you but I wanted to ensure I had fully investigated your situation and spoken to all the relevant departments within the company.

    As you know, you were asked to provide an enhanced KYC which was triggered by the big win you had against the deposit amount that you made. This is an automatic process that we have. In tandem to this enhanced KYC, we also investigated your gameplay and betting patterns associated with your play and have come to the following conclusions:

    1. You opened your account in October 2013
    2. You always deposited using Neteller
    3. You have never deposited without a bonus / promotion
    4. Your game play is almost exclusively in Batman, Superman and Snake Charmer – all high volatility games
    5. Your betting patterns have been between €20 & €60 per spin which in conjunction with the games played shows high volatility bonus play

    On their own these patterns show a high potential of bonus abuse / bonus advantage play, however we also discovered that you share a very similar deposit, play and betting patterns to another Swedish customer who came in around the same period and we are suspicious about a third customer too. This similarity includes the use of the same IP address on at least four separate occasions and within a very short timeframe of each other, making it far more than a coincidence.

    The list of the same IP addresses used within a few hours of each other are

    5.241.255.72
    176.71.54.134
    80.170.78.15
    5.241.0.161

    Fuat, our payments & fraud team therefore believe that you and this other person are actually multi accounting in order to maximise your ability to make profit from the bonuses on offer , all the evidence I have seen leads me to the same conclusion and is in a clear breach of our general bonus terms and conditions, where you are clearly not permitted to use multiple accounts nor use the bonus offers for the sole purpose of attempted bonus exploitation .

    I am therefore confident that the right decision was made to confiscate your winnings as they were gained by breaching our terms and conditions. I would however on this occasion (whilst not obligated in any way to do so) refund the last deposit you made of €300 which was associated with this confiscated win. Please advise if you wish me to do so.

    I am afraid, that we must consider this our final decision should you wish to appeal it. However you are able to complain to our licensing authority (Malta Regulatory Authority) who have an independent complaints service, the details of which can be found on both their and our website.

    Yours sincerely

    Vince
    Casino Manager
     
  38. Feb 10, 2015
  39. Tirilej

    Tirilej On a Break

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    In my years here I've almost never seen any complaint against this casino and suddenly several cases are popping up.
    So there is a new management?
    It doesn't feel fair that you can run the casino in a new way but still lean on it as being an old established one.

    I also hope that you have read this? Reading your post makes me think that you haven't done that yet.
    http://www.casinomeister.com/philosophy.php
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    1 person likes this.

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