Player Verification Documents & Procedures (renamed)

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Dormant account
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Location
Earth
Wow, I've been reading several of the threads lately and it appears that players being asked to verify them self with their cc's, bills etc. seems to be a big problem with all the online casinos. I thought a thread simply about casino document requests and problems would be a good discussion. Personally I've never been asked for additional doc's but I know many have so here we go. Let's hear the good, bad and ugly of what they want and the confusion involved??:thumbsup:
 
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4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
Requiring documents (several) is really not an issue. I also understand the safety in these requests. With the alleged fear of money laundering, identity theft, age, and all the rest of the unfortunate scams that come with cyberspace, some could be more patient prior to negative posting concerning these issues.

Yet, I also agree in too many cases the online casinos have used this requirement to often as one of the many tools in their tool-chest, as a delay tactic when it's time to pay. Although in most cases it could only be used once per casino; since once the docs. are excepted that tool should find its way back into the box.

The delay tactic to pay obviously is a good tactic for the casino or I'm certain it would not be used as often as we read about.

Think about all the reversals that must take place. After a player tries cashing out and after a few days of bullshit e-mails, (it's to dark, not clear, wrong document, never received it, etc, etc, etc,) the player just wants to play and instead of flushing fresh cash into the money pit, they just reverse it and lose it back.

I think it's safe to say that this delay tactic accounts for millions and millions of dollars retained by online casinos by not rushing the money out.

Even though the cash out once it reaches the player who most likely will just redeposit it, you must also consider the amount of bonuses they don't have to hand out once again in the millions, with a fresh deposit.

It's only about the money and nothing else. No different then just about everything else going on in this world. Money no doubt became the true root of all evil.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The problem is that the requirements are too rigid. Not EVERYBODY has a utility bill IN THEIR NAME. These bills are HOUSEHOLD bills, and it is not necessarily the case that the "head" of the household, who has the bills in their name, is the one playing. Take the simplest situation, the bog standard husband, wife, and 2.4 kids.

Husband is "head" of the household, goes to work, and pays the bills. The wife looks after the house & kids, and plays a little online as a hobby. She will have her own ID documents, but these may NOT necessarily have a photo, it depends on the country. The utility bill, however, is in her husband's name, and maybe he doesn't know about her hobby, and she doesn't want to tell him - and wants him left out of the process. She cannot meet the bill requirement without involving her husband, perhaps by getting a token bill changed into her name, or getting him to vouch for her to the casino. In modern society, this situation can be, and is, reversed - the wife being the breadwinner, and the "househusband" looking after the home & kids.

Another situation is a grown up kid living with mun & dad (or other combination;)). The kid may not even have a driving licence, and may think they only need a young person's "PASS" card to buy alcohol and tobacco. They will find they ALSO need one to withdraw from casinos. Again, the one thing these grown up kids will NOT have is a household utility bill IN THEIR NAME. They MAY have a mobile phone bill in their name, but these are not accepted.

Some flexibility is needed for these situations, but even where it exists, support are often unaware, and continually parrot the usual demands for the "standard head of household" documents, even though AFTER the issue has gone as far as a complaint, be that PAB, or public "bitch & moan", it turns out that the other options appear. These often include bank statements, and even pictures of the player holding up their documents.

There is also a growing trend to "save the planet", with many utilities under pressure from the GOVERNMENT to cut down their "environmental footprint". One way they have done this has been to phase out paper bills sent through the post, and replacing these with an online only statement. This is good enough for the intended purpose, but COMPLETELY USELESS when a bill is requested by a casino. This trend is now going further, and many utilities are FINING customers for continuing to insist they be sent a paper bill. I am "fined" by both my Cable TV & Broadband company, and my landline phone company, for receiving a paper bill. At least ONE of these is necessary, to fill the gaps between quarterly energy bills since SOME casinos seem to think there are only TWO months in a "quarter".
I could save a CONSIDERABLE amount by switching to an "online" energy deal, but this does not even PERMIT paper bills, even WITH a "fine". This "do it all online" trend is growing, and there are going to be casino players who do everything online, because it is cheaper. Casino players are MORE likely than the general public to be doing this, since they are both happy with using the internet, AND trusting enough to use online casinos with what can be CONSIDERABLE sums of "real" money.

Ideally, players need a "one stop shop" verification scheme, whereby an organisation trusted by the casino industry will verify a player using whatever documentation they have, along with in-depth electronic & other checks. The player would then be issued with a photo bearing "player's pass" to be used at ALL online casinos. The player would have to send in an image of this pass, as they now send in one of a drivers licence for example. The casino would then be able to check with the verifying agency that the pass presented matches the details provided upon registration.
As technology has advanced, this "player pass" could be biometrically enabled, so that additional security measures can be added.
Provided a biometric sample can be VERIFIABLY taken from the player, it can then be used as part of the log-in process at the casino, such as a USB fingerprint reader.
Banks currently use USB card readers, and this could be the first piece of technology that can be used on this "player pass". Upon login, it verifies the player has current possession of his "player pass". The casino can log it's usual stats of IP address, MAC address etc, and add to it information about the "player pass" being used at the time. This should start to catch out those who "rent" IDs from their "friends" to play multiple casino accounts.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
That was a very interesting post Vinylweatherman. Being the head of my household with endless bills in my name, I never considered any of your comments as an issue.

After taking all of that into consideration I could see how changes will need to be made in the future. Yet, I could see the online casinos doing everything possible not to lose the delay tool. Maybe that's why after several years of these problems coming across their table in the past, no serious consideration was every put forward by them to address these matters. I still think the delay tactic is a very important part of their business.

If the U.S. get involved it would be interesting to see their way of handling confirmation.
 

GGW Laurie

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Location
In the Beautiful South !!
That was a very interesting post Vinylweatherman. Being the head of my household with endless bills in my name, I never considered any of your comments as an issue.

After taking all of that into consideration I could see how changes will need to be made in the future. Yet, I could see the online casinos doing everything possible not to lose the delay tool. Maybe that's why after several years of these problems coming across their table in the past, no serious consideration was every put forward by them to address these matters. I still think the delay tactic is a very important part of their business.

If the U.S. get involved it would be interesting to see their way of handling confirmation.


I agree so much with this, im just not to comfortable with sending in some things with personal info on them, that could be used for identity fraud if it were to fall into the wrong hands, you just dont know who you are dealing with sometimes in this day and age of high tech., where anything can happen:eek:.

laurie
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I don't possess Government issued ID that includes Photo, Date of Birth and address all on the same piece of ID. In fact, none of my photo ID includes an address. I was one of the people who was requested a photo of me holding my ID, for a cashout on a ND chip. Other than needing a couple of days to get someone to snap this picture for me, I had no difficulty complying with this request.

I have (as per advice read here on the forum) sent my ID PRIOR to making a deposit at any casino since joining CM, and have received written confirmation that it is in fact acceptable. I think that casinos may be a little more flexible in their ID requirements if they understand that you will NOT deposit unless your ID is approved.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
The problem is that the requirements are too rigid. Not EVERYBODY has a utility bill IN THEIR NAME.

Fair point, but I've never known a casino refuse a copy of the header of a bank statement as an alternative to a utility bill. I just block out the amounts and send that with a passport photo.

As an aside, I photo these with my phone, bluetooth them to the PC and email them. Takes a couple of minutes.


Most frustrating ID verification procedures this year: Mansion and Casinoshare. Mansion in particular was slow and the request was ambiguous. Then they wanted a re-scan of my passport so they could see all the edges, then they wanted scans of the card b/f (without the numbers blanked). Then they wanted me to sign a form and snail mail or print and fax it to them for the debit card deposits (paperless office here)...it was a nightmare.
 

amatrine

Crazy Cat Lady
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Location
Arizona City, Az
I have had that problem. All the bills are in my husbands name. Was a pain in the rear till I remembered the car bill is in my name and they take that.
What I hate, is when I had to send a recent one in that showed my car payment is past due. They don't need to know that, lol

Other than that I have not had any problems except for the occasional casino that makes you send them in over and over saying they did not get them.
They can not say mine are not clear. Mine are VERY clear.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Fair point, but I've never known a casino refuse a copy of the header of a bank statement as an alternative to a utility bill. I just block out the amounts and send that with a passport photo.

As an aside, I photo these with my phone, bluetooth them to the PC and email them. Takes a couple of minutes.


Most frustrating ID verification procedures this year: Mansion and Casinoshare. Mansion in particular was slow and the request was ambiguous. Then they wanted a re-scan of my passport so they could see all the edges, then they wanted scans of the card b/f (without the numbers blanked). Then they wanted me to sign a form and snail mail or print and fax it to them for the debit card deposits (paperless office here)...it was a nightmare.


This, unfortunately, is part of the "hidden" flexibility, which often gets mentioned when the player has already lost confidence that the casino is legit, and believes the requirements are just a stalling tactic to make them reverse their withdrawal.

Casinos have to remember that they operate internationally, and there are many standards of what information is included on particular documents. They also need to "get real", and remember that households have many structures, and indeed many are "paperless", since this is something being heavily pushed now as a "save the planet" exercise. Many statements that were once posted are now issued online, as PDF documents. These CAN be printed off, and there is NO WAY to tell the difference between these, and a posted statements (after all, this is EXACTLY what used to happen, the utility company prints them off their end, and posts them). What IS different is the online "working area" of the account, where the layout lacks any of the usual information that would be found on a posted statement - this would be useless as any kind of verification, unless it showed the other end of a transaction to the casino in a form that made this relationship clear.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
There is also a growing trend to "save the planet", with many utilities under pressure from the GOVERNMENT to cut down their "environmental footprint". One way they have done this has been to phase out paper bills sent through the post, and replacing these with an online only statement. This is good enough for the intended purpose, but COMPLETELY USELESS when a bill is requested by a casino. This trend is now going further, and many utilities are FINING customers for continuing to insist they be sent a paper bill. I am "fined" by both my Cable TV & Broadband company, and my landline phone company, for receiving a paper bill. At least ONE of these is necessary, to fill the gaps between quarterly energy bills since SOME casinos seem to think there are only TWO months in a "quarter".
I could save a CONSIDERABLE amount by switching to an "online" energy deal, but this does not even PERMIT paper bills, even WITH a "fine". This "do it all online" trend is growing, and there are going to be casino players who do everything online, because it is cheaper. Casino players are MORE likely than the general public to be doing this, since they are both happy with using the internet, AND trusting enough to use online casinos with what can be CONSIDERABLE sums of "real" money.

Many places will accept online billing statements, particulary from the major utility companys. Online bank statements are usually acceptable as well.
What people sometimes forget is that when you switch to paperless billing you can still request on demand a paper bill (although they are in their rights to levy a small fee for this service).

Another fact to consider is that people who play online are far more likely to be the ones who will take advantage of paperless billing, quite often lured by discounts to their bills. A paperless bill is NO DIFFERENT to a paper bill, it contains exactly the same information.

Amatrine on this thread commented about how she did not have any bills in her own name, then went on to say they accepted a motoring bill. This is a prime example that the people responsible for auditing these documents are not quite as clued up as we are led to believe. Proof of current residence is essential, but try sending them an electoral roll document, it would be flatly rejected, yet a lesser important bill could be accepted just because it looks like a utility bill.

With an ever growing amount of private sector companys fighting for our business, means the names of companys on our bills may seem somewhat unfamilar and could easily be rejected, whereas a more familar brand eg Virgin mobile, could be accepted even though mobile phones are not proof of residence.

It is quite a paradox that the very casinos who INSIST on paper documents do not practice what they preach and send statements of our casino accounts through the post. Casinos need to be more flexible in the way they handle these documents. They should be giving mock up examples on their site of what they expect so players are not wasting their time submitting documents. An example of this is when applying for a passport, it is clear and simple what they expect. Not 2 lines of text in the T&C's, that is just not good enough.


Mike
 

Bencuri

Experienced Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
May 13, 2009
Location
Hungary
My opinions on this topic:

1. I don't like the verification procedure, but as it is general, I think nobody should evaluate casinos on this base. Most of them want it, and also in the accredited list there are several that does it. So until they are let into the accredited section, we shouldn't evaluate if a casino is honest or not on this base. However that is true, that some casinos are suspicious about that they use this verification process as a form of delay. I had this experiance at Pamper casino:
1.Cashout Request (I think reply limit was 'in 3 business days')
2. After one week reply came: please send in docs (they claim they send payment in 72 hours or so)
3. After one more week: payment sent, but I was closed out of the casino because of sumbitting complaints at several forum on this topic
I think Pamper would have been honest in case they sent me the verification request right after sumbitting my wirhdrawal request, not after one week, that was also over the promised reply time frame as well. In case casinos do this, that can really be interpreted as a trick to delay.

But as long as they send the verification request during the pending time, I think those casinos should't be blamed with that they want to delay. Obviously not, because the pending period is there, so ... the money will stay there no matter there is verification or not.

2 The question itself is very interesting anyway apart from the fact that it is a present habit of casinos today. I am also not sure of if this verification has any use or not. In many cases casinos claim they have an officer in charge who is the only one who checks the sent in scans, well, I would like to make sure that those officers are really there to check every day.

3.Anyway I think this whole debate could be ended and a conclusion could be drwan if somebody asked a person who is well informed about law tabout whether casinos have the right to request such documents at all? I would be very happy to hear the answer, but unfortunately I don't have such a friend. In case somebody has, he should ask this!

4.At Mansion the verification procedure is one of the worst accoarding to my opinion, too. I became very upset when I needed to face it, too. :mad:

5. Until it is a custom that some casinos request IDs, I hope they will never do it before depositing. That would really make me upset. When I deposit I want to play and not filling out papers and scan. That can wait until I win.
 
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