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Player Responsibility vs Affiliate Marketing Responsibility

Discussion in 'Casino Industry Discussion' started by WagerWitch, Jan 12, 2010.

    Jan 12, 2010
  1. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    After reading this thread:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casino-industry-discussion/35466-roanan-gamtrak-discussion-split-gp-thread.html

    I kind of got highly upset at the OP's admission of writing the FBI about an affiliate who marketed/advertised a casino that caused the OP to lose money.

    (and of course, we all know that this particular casino group is a bunch of scum bags)

    However - this lead me to a very important thought:

    Is it the RESPONSIBILITY of the PLAYER or the RESPONSIBILITY of the AFFILIATE?

    An affiliate is nothing more than a sales person marketing something to make a buck.

    They are a billboard on the internet highway - with sign space for sale.

    ADVERTISING.

    Now - some affiliates STRIVE to only promote or show casinos that maintain good standings.

    Some affiliates - on the other hand - don't care WHO they market - they just want to make the fast dollar.

    Now - WHO is responsible for clicking on the ads and choosing the gamble?

    The Affiliate or the Player?

    Who is responsible for finding out if a casino is good or not?

    Who is responsible for spending the money?

    Seriously - I want to know if I am on the wrong page in this world - because some of the things I have read recently have made me think that people want to shrug off their own responsibilities. They want to blame others for their choices.

    Now - me - personally - I try hard to stay away from scum sucking casinos and people who promote them. But that's my OWN personal choice.

    I'm not going to associate myself on purpose with sincere force to those that are promoting bad things.

    BUT - That is my choice.

    I wouldn't give anyone anything I wouldn't give myself - and that is a personal philosophy and life style choice.

    But - I still think over all - the end responsibility lies with the player to check EVERYTHING out.

    What do YOU think?
     
  2. Jan 12, 2010
  3. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    IMO, you can't shrug your shoulders and say, oh it's all the players responsibility to figure out if it's a good or bad place. Players, especially new players are very gullible. Heck I was, and let's see a show of hands for all the other peeps here, who were also. For us seasoned players who have been around the block and who are members here or for those that have just stumbled in, well they get their education if they hang around long at all, but you take a newbie who is new to online gambling and chances are they are going to start like most of us did.
    They are going to be swayed by all those flashing banners that advertise the freebies, and then after they play the freebies, then it's those 400%, 500%, 1000% bonus offers that are going to convince you to deposit. Do you think at this point in time, that most players have educated themselves or do you think they have been seduced by those flashing banners? At that point, newbies don't have a frickin" clue, and come on, who wouldn't think that hey I can deposit $25.00 but I get to play with $400.00.......they think SWEET! This is fun! Then what happens....well we've all heard that sad story repeated over and over again right? They end up here or somewhere else complaining because they can't get their winnings right? Then they get their education in the school of hard knocks.

    So IMO, the player has a responsibility, but given the nature of it and the seductiveness of it.......they most likely are screwed unless they are very smart in the beginning. So......I think the affiliate has the greater share of the responsibility because it's a business, and shouldn't anyone who is starting any kind of business educate themselves and try to be responsible and ethical when undertaking such an endeavor? It's a whole different ballgame, a business VS a player just looking for a little fun. One thing really can't be compared to the other in so many ways.....because of the nature of one being serious vs the other being mostly looking for fun or diversion.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
     
    13 people like this.
  4. Jan 12, 2010
  5. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    Short and to the point........The Players Responsibility!!!!!!!!
     
    2 people like this.
  6. Jan 12, 2010
  7. gloria460

    gloria460 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    nurse
    Location:
    Florida
    Over the past few months I've visited quite a few affliate sites. Some I just put in casino affliates and hit search and others I had already heard about. From my viewpoint it is a shared responsibility and I would say 65% of it is on the affliate because most of the time the new player would probably not know to look for a certain casino unless promoted by an affliate who has nothing but good things to say about said casino.

    I've joined many forums and I've even read where affliates said they wouldn't play at a casino that had over 20xwr but they promote these outfits and give glowing reviews. As soon as a new casino pops up you see a banner and a description almost identical to what's on the casinos site right on the affliates site without them testing that site for awhile to see if it has any problems.

    At the end of the day the affliate is there to make money and he/she can only make money by you/player losing.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Jan 12, 2010
  9. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    Your two cents is well worth it - thank you for the commentary!
     
  10. Jan 12, 2010
  11. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    Thank you Laurie - I can't be short and to the point ever. LMAO! Even my poor fingers cringe when I start typing. LOL!
     
  12. Jan 12, 2010
  13. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska

    OK - I see your point - that the player wouldn't have joined up if it weren't for the affiliate site.

    HOWEVER - the affiliate site is merely advertising space.

    It's like a billboard on the highway - it's nothing more than that.

    SO - if I am driving down the road - and I see a sign for oh - say - Oil of Olay - which says it will get rid of my wrinkles... Right? And there is a beautiful Model on that sign...

    I go to the store - buy the Oil of Olay - and well - let's just say my wrinkles are still there - and I'm out the 45.00 it cost me to buy the product.

    Well then... Hmmmm...

    Do I go to the BILLBOARD and say - YOU - the owner of the billboard owe me because I'm out of money from something that didn't work the way I thought it would - and I still have wrinkles... ???????

    Or do I go and buy the product again?

    Or do I go to the company?


    I mean - I see your point to some degree - but I believe the FINAL onus lies upon the gambler who chooses to sign up.

    And yeah - just for reference - I think bad casinos are bad casinos.

    I have affiliated one or two bad casinos when I first started this business... But I wouldn't send my mom to some of the casinos - so I don't promote them..

    But this whole thing - this whole industry is a learning curve.

    And let us not mistake the bottom line.

    We're talking about gambling here...

    And gambling - to be perfectly honest - has ALWAYS had a "shady" side...

    Unfortunate - but true... As long as people are ashamed of gambling - or people treat it as though it is something that is "evil" - then it will always have that shady side.

    There ARE crooks out there.

    But MOST affiliates - are just Billboards.

    I think we DO owe it to ourselves to represent the better - non evil casinos.... (the known ones, at least...)

    But not everyone believes that the casinos can be evil.

    And SOME PEOPLE... really need the money.

    This might be their bread and butter. Yanno?

    If it was down to me and my kid starving - I'd represent a lot of things that people would not agree with. YANNO?


    Anyhow - I totally see your point - but I still think that the player should be totally responsible - And ONLY the player.

    I think that affiliates need to be honorable - but that is a choice - not a demand.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Jan 12, 2010
  15. De Beuker

    De Beuker Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Production
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I'm sorry but I cannot agree.
    Affiliates make money through the players, and that gives them a part of responsibility too, no matter if they like it or not.
    Some affilliate sites blatantly promote rogues, writing in reviews how great they are and how wonderful their customer support is while these people KNOW these places are first class shitholes.
    Newbies believe they found a good casino and get screwed.

    Someone compared an affilliate with a billboard, stating you cannot blame the billboard.
    True, but the billboard itself does not earn any money.
    The person who put it there does, and is responsible for whats on it. Simple as that.

    I think both affilliates and players are responsible for their own actions.
    Affilliates should CLEARLY WARN players about known rogue sites, or even better, not promote them AT ALL.
    Thats THEIR responsibility.
    the player should do research and then decide where to play.
    If a player, despite the warnings, still decides to play at a known rogue, then its THEIR responsibility.

    And thats my 2 cents.
     
    4 people like this.
  16. Jan 12, 2010
  17. bryand

    bryand Beach Bum PABnonaccred mm1

    Occupation:
    Legal
    Location:
    Just Across the Hudson River
    I have to agree this is the point of the matter. It is not right to make money advertising services that bring harm to potential patrons.
     
  18. Jan 12, 2010
  19. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    And your two cents are absolutely worthwhile ALSO.

    I agree - the affiliate "SHOULD PROBABLY" be more honorable - totally agree...

    But that is a "PERSONAL" choice - a moral standard that "I" live to.

    I cannot demand that someone else live to that standard.

    It's like saying "PORNOGRAPHY IS EVIL - Don't show Porno"...

    Well - truth to be told - some people like porno - and some people think porn is evil.

    Who am I to say they are right or wrong?

    Isn't it up to the person who is watching it (or not) to determine whether it is right or wrong for them?

    I think the player must take FULL responsibility for playing.

    HOWEVER - with that caveat - I'd like to see webmasters and bulletin boards be MORE honest... or at least try to be more ethical to the Moral Majority.

    But the onus is on the player to research first and foremost....

    In my very humble opinion.

    Because the money belongs to the player... the time - the gambling initiative - the action - they all belong to the player....

    And every human being must realize that there are shysters EVERYWHERE who want to take money away from them.

    In a way - it's like saying Yahoo is responsible for those Nigerian Scam "my rich uncle died - give me your bank account number and I'll transfer hundreds of thousands to your bank account" letters that are spammed out...
     
  20. Jan 12, 2010
  21. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming! Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    I believe the onus is on the affiliate. After all a player visits an affiliate site so they can make an informed opinion as to where to choose to play.

    If a site recommends a clip shot joint, then the player is more likely to be convinced to play there, based on the information on the affiliate site.

    I have played at all of the casinos ( or at least one of the casinos within a particular group ) I promote and will only promote casinos that as a player I am happy to frequent. Many affiliates also do the same.
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Jan 12, 2010
  23. Bencuri

    Bencuri Experienced Member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Hungary
    No. Until the advertiser doesn't attach an affiliate link for the banner, you are right. From the point they attach, you are not, because they also become part of the business. They register at the affiliate site of these casinos for revenue, so they become part of it. They legally become part of a business by registering at an affiliate website and accepting the terms. And also morally.

    So until there is no revenue, we can say, okay, they advertised this site, it was an idea. But by posting affiliate links and getting revenue, they are something like a 'worker' of the casino. By registering at the affiliate site, they get share of the pot, they become 'builder' of the business of the casino.
     
    2 people like this.
  24. Jan 12, 2010
  25. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska

    Thank you so much for joining the discussion. I tried to push the THANK YOU button on You - but I think I ran out of THANK YOU buttons or something. LOL - so --- THANK YOU!

    You're right - it's probably not "MORALLY" ethical to promote a casino that you know is probably not going to make good on their wins, etc.

    HOWEVER - don't you think it's up to the people who are playing to do more research before purchasing a product?

    I mean - look - let's take guitars for example...

    OK?

    I'm a music store...

    I have 10 guitars.

    8 of those guitars are top of the line Fender, Gibson, Yamaha, etc.

    But 2 of the guitars are cheapie, fall apart brands...

    A customer comes in and wants a good deal.

    I show him the 10 guitars.

    I say - Here's a GREAT Guitar --- it's 2000.00

    Here's another guitar - and it's only 20.00

    You're gonna get the same play out of the guitars...

    Now the customer buys the cheap guitar - THERE IS A NO RETURN POLICY.

    The guitar breaks in one week because of poor craftsmanship.

    Now - since I've had those guitars in my shop - I know there is a 50% chance that the guitars are gonna fall apart fairly quickly... Which is why they are OBVIOUSLY ---- ONLY --- 20.00...

    Should I feel guilty for selling them?

    NO.

    Should I tell the guy - Hey - buy that guitar and it might fall apart...

    Probably - but - what if I really only care about the money?

    I mean - isn't that an ETHICAL question?

    And aren't ethics really about personal choices?

    I mean - I gave the dude options right? I showed him NICE guitars for 2000.00 but he CHOSE the 20.00 guitar.

    Now - let's take that scenario into the gambling realm.

    Nice casinos mostly offer lower bonuses --- sometimes none at all.
    But shyster casinos often offer too good to be true bonuses.

    Right?

    So here is the player - looking at BONUSES - and well - the player wants bonuses for FREE - and wants the best possible bonus.

    And well - they take the bonus that is the biggest - even though there are casinos that offer smaller ones...

    But without the bonus - the casino "technically" costs more to play at.

    So the player chooses the HIGHER bonus offers - and goes to town playing.

    Now - who am I to tell the player NOT to play the high bonuses?

    You catching my drift?

    Ethics are a personal choice.

    To me... The bottom line is this:

    WEBMASTERS should PROBABLY promote only decent casinos... HOWEVER the player should be a responsible player - and whatever they choose to do with their money is their responsibility.

    I DO believe better morals should be all around the world - however - who am I to tell a webmaster who and what to promote and not promote?
     
  26. Jan 12, 2010
  27. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    Oh - I so agree with you on playing at the casinos you promote. TOTALLY.

    But then - I also agree that FOR ME --- that I will not recommend a casino that I wouldn't go to myself. Yanno?

    But I think the end choice belongs to the player.

    Thanks Web - love seeing you here.
     
  28. Jan 12, 2010
  29. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    My 2 cents :p
    http://www.casinomeister.com/affiliate.php#promoting

    An affiliate is 100% responsible on who he/she promotes. They must do their due diligence, and if they have a "listing" site - disclaimers need to be in place.

    A player is 100% responsible for what they do on the internet. There are a massive amount of tools to use to research sites. A ten minute Google session will give you most of the information you need to make a wise decision.

    Problems:
    Some affiliates don't care - they put food on the table by taking the easy way out - promoting rogues.

    Some players don't care who they throw their money at - they're too lazy to do their "due diligence" to protect themselves.

    It's a two way street.

    Webmasters should read my "Promoting Online Casinos Responsibly" - even though it's a little dated, it has valid points.
     
    3 people like this.
  30. Jan 12, 2010
  31. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    You have a good point there - about the getting paid... and the linking...

    But I'm not so sure that I agree with you that the affiliate becomes part of the casino.

    Like a billboard gets paid for the advertising space - I believe also the affiliate is paid for the advertising.

    Kind of like the guy who wears the big clapboard sign around his neck for the local hot dog restaurant and walks down the corner...

    He gets paid an hourly wage to display the sign and walk around the streets to bring people into the restaurant.

    Would you BLAME this walking advertisement then - if you were to get salmonella poisoning?

    People do NOT get me wrong here....

    I'm NOT confusing Ethics with responsibility.

    I personally believe that I should only promote those casinos that are decent casinos. If I find a casino that is bad - I stop promoting it.

    But I also look at the reasons behind a casino that is "bad" - for example there is a casino that I promote that is in the NOT Recommended section here.

    OK - so - I KNOW the story behind it - but it is the ONLY story I have heard of. And ONE bad apple didn't make the whole place horrible for me... Even though someone I adore was the one involved - it still was just ONE instance..

    So I try very hard to look at all things involved.

    OK?

    But - I wouldn't promote some other casinos... Let's say the big Golden(ick) you know palace groupish people.

    I wouldn't put them on my page unless they paid me a MILLION dollars UpFront.... in cold hard cash (sorry folks - every person has their price - and well for a million dollars I'd probably dance Naked for that group - or something stupid - but I'd prolly put them on my site... LOL!)

    Anyhow - These are MY personal ethical choices.

    I choose not to put the others (knowingly) on my site.

    BUT - that's ME. My ethics, my choices...

    Some people feel they are just billboards - and LET THE PLAYER BEWARE.

    I think - in the end - the player must be responsible for the choices they make.


    Thank you so much Ben for joining in!
     
  32. Jan 12, 2010
  33. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    Thank you Bryan - I'll take a look at that!

    And I DO agree - it is a two way street.

    I think however - if a player chooses to look at an affiliate site - and then chooses to play something from that affiliate site - the player shouldn't be screaming to the affiliate that they lost money...

    But on the other hand - as I've repeatedly said - Affiliates "should" be honest - cool and promote only those casinos they would play themselves.

    Still - I cannot dictate to people what they should believe is right or wrong...


    I can only scream about it here.... *grin*
     
  34. Jan 12, 2010
  35. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    So there's a drug dealer standing just round the corner from your kid's school, selling the hard stuff to the gullible little ones; "Oh, that's OK, he's just trying to make a living", so we just shrug our shoulders & turn a blind eye?

    Absolutely 110% spot on! :thumbsup:

    When I started out I joined quite a few dodgy places via an "extremely popular casino listing". They listed the really good places too - I did not have a clue who was good or who was bad.

    KK
     
  36. Jan 12, 2010
  37. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    I wish it was this easy. Of course there are lazy players but I am pretty sure that many beginners dont know what rogue is. Naive is a another word for those new ones.

    If a young man sees a TV-commercial that includes "poker freeroll" and the commercial is good looking of course he think that`s everything is in order.

    Everywhere can he read about retired hockeyplayers or deposed Hollywood stars who plays poker tournaments.

    The step from playing freerolls to deposit and get a 100% bonus isn`t that big. You don`t google for info about that poker site before depositing if you already have played there.




    My 2 cents (3 cents maybe):

    This thread deals with players and affiliates, but what answer has the software provider?

    Isn`t it obvious that good software providers as RTG, Microgaming, etc. has some casinos connected to them that clearly don`t treat players in that way they should? And still they get new games and software updates.

    The software provider can have some easy rules for the casino For example:

    Payments within a week(I have seen many casinos who has 10 working days for approving withdrawals and then 7 days for paying)

    No bonuses are supposed to be given automatically. How many players have played non allowed games without knowing it?
     
  38. Jan 12, 2010
  39. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    I think this thread really highlights the first paragraph of your statement Bryan. That some affiliates, even ones who consider themselves ethical, just don't care. It's money, and that's it. WagerWitch, I enjoy your posts...but on this topic, I have to disagree with you. If you consider yourself an ethical webmaster/affiliate, then you should not, under any circumstances....promote known rogues.

    Yes, I agree that players should do their due diligence before laying down their money. And it's the players who know better, that I get really upset with. We see those posts here all the time....they knew that a place like Virtual has a horrible rep, and went ahead and played anyway, because they were offered a 1000% bonus, or a free chip. I have ZERO sympathy for them, just as I have zero sympathy for any affiliate that gets screwed over by a rogue casino/affy program, when they knowingly promote that casino/program.

    The players that I really feel for are the ones who are completely new to this game, and stumble on some affiliate site, with tons of flashing banners...all advertising free money or 200% and up bonuses on their first deposits. And what makes it worse, is that some of these sites not only have banners, but glowing recommendations to some of the worst casinos on the net. I can go right now and find numerous sites that will advertise Virtual as having the fastest payouts on the internet, or as being highly recommended, and so on...ad nauseum. The newbie gambler has no idea if he has stumbled on a reputable place such as Casinomeister or just some Joe Blow's website out to make a quick buck. As BB pointed out, most newbies don't even have a clue what an affiliate is. I didn't.

    I started online gambling in 2000, and didn't come across CM until about 2002 or so I think. Until then, I was basically a babe in the woods, with not a clue how this business really worked.

    A TRULY ethical webmaster, will and should, take responsibility for who they promote. How about a little due diligence on their parts as well?
     
    3 people like this.

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