Player-pokerroom conflict involving Prima

[Freudian]

Found this interesting. Basically a player had his Prima account with $60k locked and the funds seized after winning $7k from a player with bad money. And it seems he is not the only high roller that has problems with Prima.

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[padanian]

Chatmaster, have you got any insider info about all this?!?

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Pad

First of all I want to state that I represent my personal opinion on this and base my opinion on facts presented to me a while ago aswell as personal experiences. I am not the voice of Prima on this

Yes I am aware of this post. This player was found guilty of cheating. I had a look at some of the evidence that I was given at the time and there was no doubt in my mind that the dicision was correct.

Prima do not publicly anounce detail of their decisions because it will keep the players that are cheating up to date on the techniques used to catch them out. It will also get people that normally wouldn't considder cheating to think of ways to beat the system. Anyway that is my view. (I think it make sense) I have yet to find a decision made by Prima to lock an account that has been wrong.

If memory serves me correctly a couple of High Rollers has been approached by syndicates to take part in cheating techniques. One of those included chipdumping and the dumping of frauduelent money. The reason for this was that the High Roller has a reputation for taking big pots. The only problem with this was that the Prima Fraud unit doesn't only look at what kind of player you are with regards to the amount of hands you win etc. they have other systems in place to check for cheating and fraud. These high rollers were caught out. We had one at our room who admitted to this, problem was that 60% of his money was earned legally(according to him) and he wanted at least that back.

We had a case of another pro that accedentially walked in on a table where a syndicate was active. He went in and distroyed their plot by taking there hands one after the other. His account was locked but after an investigaton by Prima unlocked again when they found that he was inocent. The syndicate though wasn't as lucky.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I fully trust the Prima Fraud unit's judgement and anti-fraud techniques. I also think most of us will be surprised at what the techniques is that these idiots (cheaters) use to cheat us. I can only say that as a poker player myself I am thankfull that Prima protects us as true poker players so we can play poker as it is intended to be played

 

[Freudian]

Hi Pad

First of all I want to state that I represent my personal opinion on this and base my opinion on facts presented to me a while ago aswell as personal experiences. I am not the voice of Prima on this

Yes I am aware of this post. This player was found guilty of cheating. I had a look at some of the evidence that I was given at the time and there was no doubt in my mind that the dicision was correct.

Prima do not publicly anounce detail of their decisions because it will keep the players that are cheating up to date on the techniques used to catch them out. It will also get people that normally wouldn't considder cheating to think of ways to beat the system. Anyway that is my view. (I think it make sense) I have yet to find a decision made by Prima to lock an account that has been wrong.

If memory serves me correctly a couple of High Rollers has been approached by syndicates to take part in cheating techniques. One of those included chipdumping and the dumping of frauduelent money. The reason for this was that the High Roller has a reputation for taking big pots. The only problem with this was that the Prima Fraud unit doesn't only look at what kind of player you are with regards to the amount of hands you win etc. they have other systems in place to check for cheating and fraud. These high rollers were caught out. We had one at our room who admitted to this, problem was that 60% of his money was earned legally(according to him) and he wanted at least that back.

We had a case of another pro that accedentially walked in on a table where a syndicate was active. He went in and distroyed their plot by taking there hands one after the other. His account was locked but after an investigaton by Prima unlocked again when they found that he was inocent. The syndicate though wasn't as lucky.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I fully trust the Prima Fraud unit's judgement and anti-fraud techniques. I also think most of us will be surprised at what the techniques is that these idiots (cheaters) use to cheat us. I can only say that as a poker player myself I am thankfull that Prima protects us as true poker players so we can play poker as it is intended to be played

Thats not the whole truth. Prima doesn't even provide the accused with the proof. So basically it's just Prima making a claim that a player has cheated and that's it. It's hard to defend yourself when you don't even know what you are accused of. So its just not the case of publically revealing the proof, it's the case of providing the proof at all. Besides, chip dumping is hardly rocket science anyway. I doubt publically revealing hands where the supposed dumping occured would tell anyone something they already didn't know.

If you read the thread you can see that there are a lot of very respected players (read El Diablos post for example, he is as respected as they come) that also had their accounts locked without more than a vague claim. While I am sure Prima is a target simply because of the fact that they accept payments the other pokerrooms wouldn't (probably a heritage from the casino side of operations) I am not so sure your fraud department is as perfect as you make it out to be. Seems like quite a few normal players have had the finger pointed at them also. Seems like the institutional response to chargebacks is to lock accounts of those that won from the person doing the chargeback and seize their whole bankroll. Which of course is absurd.

Might add that this case is a few months old.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Freudian

At no stage did I claim that Prima is perfect. However, I have supported all of their decisions they made with our poker room so far.

I can assure you that as an operator it is extremely frustrating to loose your best players when they fallen for these syndicates. The worst of all is that Prima doesnt forgive and forget. I personally would have appreciated some kind of rehabilitation possibility. I mean it is only human to make a mistake sometimes. On the other hand I can also understand that they show zero tolerance as that will definitely scare off players to consider taking the cheating route.

About your remarks regarding chip dumping etc. I will excuse you being uninformed about fraudulent issues, but it is clear to me that you have no understanding of fraudulent strategies used in online poker, that is fine but I can assure you that chip dumping for one is a science!

With regards to the forum you referred to. With any forum there is allot of respect for really good players and if they are accused by a Poker Room like Prima there is no question where the loyalty of forum members will go. A respectable player can also be a fraud just as much as Prima can possibly make a mistake, but 10 so called Pro's claiming they are innocent I cannot believe, Prima might make one mistake, but 10, that is BS. Sorry I support Prima all the way because I know from experience that Prima has never made a mistake on my side. Yes they have locked accounts for investigation purposes but it was always unlocked if innocence was proven! Prima will only lock an account if they are 100% sure!

As I said before I am giving my opinion. You have your opinion, I have mine, I never attacked your integrity, do not attack mine. I am trying to stay neutral on this issue although from your point of view... "it must be impossible.... I mean this guy is one of the operators"

 

[Freudian]

Hi Freudian

At no stage did I claim that Prima is perfect. However, I have supported all of their decisions they made with our poker room so far.

I can assure you that as an operator it is extremely frustrating to loose your best players when they fallen for these syndicates. The worst of all is that Prima doesnt forgive and forget. I personally would have appreciated some kind of rehabilitation possibility. I mean it is only human to make a mistake sometimes. On the other hand I can also understand that they show zero tolerance as that will definitely scare off players to consider taking the cheating route.

About your remarks regarding chip dumping etc. I will excuse you being uninformed about fraudulent issues, but it is clear to me that you have no understanding of fraudulent strategies used in online poker, that is fine but I can assure you that chip dumping for one is a science!

With regards to the forum you referred to. With any forum there is allot of respect for really good players and if they are accused by a Poker Room like Prima there is no question where the loyalty of forum members will go. A respectable player can also be a fraud just as much as Prima can possibly make a mistake, but 10 so called Pro's claiming they are innocent I cannot believe, Prima might make one mistake, but 10, that is BS. Sorry I support Prima all the way because I know from experience that Prima has never made a mistake on my side. Yes they have locked accounts for investigation purposes but it was always unlocked if innocence was proven! Prima will only lock an account if they are 100% sure!

As I said before I am giving my opinion. You have your opinion, I have mine, I never attacked your integrity, do not attack mine. I am trying to stay neutral on this issue although from your point of view... "it must be impossible.... I mean this guy is one of the operators"

The reason a lot of these players are respected is because they are well known for their skill and integrity. It's something that takes years to establish. And pretty much everyone that has been tagged as frauds by Prima to this day play on other sites and are winning players. It's not like they are drive-by scammers but solid winning players.

Don't you find it strange that Prima is known as a room that locks (and confiscates the bankroll) of a lot of players, while no other poker room is? There are two possible explanations. The first one is that Prima is superior to detecting frauds compared to other pokerrooms (or that a lot of players who play legit on other sites decide to be criminals on Prima). The second one is that Prima overreacts to chargebacks/stolen credit cards and sometimes takes it out on legit players who happen to have won some of the money from the guy making chargebacks/using stolen credit cards.

I haven't questioned your integrity at all. Since I don't know you I couldn't possibly even make a guess about that. I have questioned Primas methods. Even the worst scammer should be able to know what he is accused of beyond a vague "fraud" accusation. How would someone who is innocent be able to defend himself against a Prima accusation?

 

[Chatmaster]

I have absolutely no insight into the antifraud systems in place at other Poker rooms. However I am convinced that Prima are amongst the best if not the best. As I said I am not sure and have no evidence of that.

It is just from a business point of view it doen't make sense to punish strong players. Those are the players we need to play in our poker rooms as they have the longest lifespan and rake in the money, the complete oposite than a casino! What you say doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it is just me.

The fact of the matter is that Prima is indeed doing something wrong. They are locking accounts and giving cheaters the ability to make the name of PRIMA bad on forums by not publicaly producing evidence for these cases. However, publically anouncing it can create problems of it's own. They are in a bit of a tangle if you ask me!

When it comes to respect, I completely agree with you about building respect, but at the end of the day in the faceless world of the internet you do not really know any person in the forums, but still feel as if you do. I strongly believe that although they have earned respect they were not completely honest about the reasons they were banned out of fear that they might loose some of that respect. I mean suddenly you are not playing at Prima rooms, and everybody on the forum knows you! What to do? Blame it on Prima and use your hard earned respect to protect you! Nobody will take you on because "Prima don't say nothin" at the same time teach Prima a lesson!

The irony is in many or most of these cases it is claims made without real proof. I am sorry, give me real proof when making a claim online, hand histories etc. Don't just make claims and bad mouth the Poker room! That is exactly the vibe on the forum you linked to. It is clear to me that they are anti-Prima. They bulldozed everyone that even attempted to come up for Prima! What concerns me is the fact that everybody jumped on board and started to stab Prima with all kinds of bs. The majority of people chiming in on that thread were complaining about operators not Prima, most of them probable didn't read there t&c anyway!

BTW what happened to the independent investigation? 10/28/04 ? Something must have happened by now? Anybody from CCpoker should know.

 

[Annorax]

posted stupidity, removed said stupidity. please delete post.

 

[largeeyes]

Last I heard it was to go to outside mediation, never heard another thing about it. Simply put, there isn't enough information in the public realm for any of us to make a final decision.

 

[Chatmaster]

Mmmmmm, I am sure that if the player was proven innocent, we would have heard a HUGE triomph shout all over the forums. Just my guess, does somebody else disagree with me? Unless they are still busy with mediation???

 

[Freudian]

Last I heard it was to go to outside mediation, never heard another thing about it. Simply put, there isn't enough information in the public realm for any of us to make a final decision.

There never was. Which is where the PR problem is for Prima. If several respected players claim to be caught in a Kafkaesque situation with no possibility to prove their innocence it's not good for the publics perception of this industry. Like it or not, the case has to be somewhat proven to the public.

If there was a Casinomeister for poker it would probably be easier to sort these things out. On the bright side there seems to be much less need for one in poker since both players and pokerrooms behave well generally.

 

[Chatmaster]

I guess Bryan can act as a watchdog for poker as well, the problem as is clear in this discussion is will Prima be willing to talk to him? They clearly have to look at this PR problem.

 

[paul02085]

I know a few of the guys who had their accts locked and there is no way they cheated. Until Prima makes this right no way will many players take the risk of playing there.