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Bogus Complaint Phoenix81 vs 32Red

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by Phoenix81, Nov 6, 2016.

    Nov 6, 2016
  1. Phoenix81

    Phoenix81 Dormant account

    Location:
    London
    All,

    I am soliciting feedback on this forum as I would like 32Red to receive viewpoints from the gaming member community on this complaint.

    Despite numerous platform glitches and disconnections (particularly in higher bets) on Live Casino Blackjack, I have been a loyal VIP Rouge player on 32Red for 8 months and deposited around £65k over this time which I am willing to accept as a loss. However, I am requesting a settlement for £6k which is in effect due to an error by 32Red for accepting my deposits while I was on holiday in Belgium last weekend. I was unaware that 32Red is not a licensed gambling operator in Belgium at the time of making my deposits and feel that appropriate blocks should have been put in place to prevent me from making any deposits.

    I am frustrated by the bureaucracy at 32Red and amazed at their slow response. Their unwillingness to admit their error calls into much larger questions around overall integrity.

    A brief summary is provided below:

    1) On multiple instances from beginning to start of play, I was unable to access Microgaming software for online casino licensed by 32Red as it is restricted in Belgium. This is because 32Red does not have a License A to operate as a regulated online casino provider in Belgium. Player logs and screen shots I have maintained clearly evidence that when I tried to access online casino games to play for money I was blocked, and that my gameplay was restricted to Live Casino.

    2) 32Red licenses Evolution Gaming software for live casino in the UK, however 32Red is not one of the official license holders that Evolution Gaming uses for the regulated provision of live casino in Belgium. Consequently, under no circumstances, should 32Red have accepted these transactions in Belgium. Separately, I have also noted that one of 32Red's domains, You must register/login in order to see the link., has been black-listed by the Belgian Gaming Commission since 2012.

    3) I have retained copies of a live chat for my records where I flagged this as a concern to 32Red. The agent says my last gameplay recorded was in Germany...a few minutes later the agent changes her mind to say it is a UK IP address. She then changes her mind once again to say I started with a Belgian IP, then unknown IP and then a UK IP.

    I have provided copies of my hotel invoice and travel plans clearly demonstrating that I was in Belgium and not in the UK on the evening and for the entire weekend that this happened.

    As 32Red was able to prevent me from gaining access to Microgaming online casino on numerous occasions throughout my game play in Belgium, the real error is at 32Red's end as I should never have had access to Evolution Live Casino via 32Red and been able to make real money bets while in Belgium.

    Consequently, I insist that my deposits are refunded immediately as this is a contravention of the Belgian Gaming Commission.

    Hopefully this post will now call 32Red to action.

    Thanks,
    Phoenix81
     
  2. Nov 6, 2016
  3. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Unlikely,

    This is quite a complex legal situation, and as a UK citizen on holiday it isn't as straightforward as it would be were they to have accepted a Belgian player and taken their money. This is a known issue in regulatory circles, and it has already been decided that as far as HMRC are concerned, a UK player who plays when on holiday is still deemed to be a UK player in terms of the tax position of the casino. Similarly, a foreign player who deposits at their casino whilst in the UK is deemed not to be one for which the casino would have to pay tax. The original "physically present in the UK" position has been shown to be unworkable.

    It would follow from this argument that even though you deposited and played from Belgium, you are considered a UK player as far as the UK regulations are concerned, which would mean that you would not be eligible for the return of the 6K simply on the grounds you were in Belgium at the time.

    Whether or not 32Red broke the law in this case is a matter for the Belgian authorities, particularly how they deal with the situation of a foreign player who is able to play a casino from home, but who plays their home casino when physically present in Belgium where said casino is not legal in Belgium. Whether 32Red has to refund these deposits or pay a fine would also be a matter of Belgian law. You could use the UK courts, but it looks like you knew what you were doing because you had to work hard to get around the blocks in order to find that the best you could manage was to play the live casino. It would be reasonable to assume that you knew that you were not supposed to be playing from Belgium (all the blocking you had to endure), and as this would be civil claim, it would be decided on "balance of probability", and here it looks as though this balance would be in favour of 32Red.
     
  4. Nov 6, 2016
  5. mimi26

    mimi26 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    nurse
    Location:
    uk


    sorry I am a little confused by your post, did you deposit and spend the money or is the money still in your account because they blocked play?
     
  6. Nov 6, 2016
  7. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    As I understand, the player was aware 32Red was not licenced in Belgium. Whether he knew before going, or found out when he tried to play casino I do not know.

    He found that 32Red Live Casino, ran under a different gaming platform, was available to deposit and place bets. He deposited $6K, and since he is not asking for a return of funds on account, I can only assume the 6K was played and lost.

    If 32Red was denying a win on the basis that he played in a jurisdiction they are not licenced in, I'd be 100% behind pay the player. They could pay whatever fines or penalties they might be subject to.

    Unless the OP can produce some evidence of confiscation of winnings by other players by 32Red, I think tough.

    I am not privy to the finer points of international gaming laws, and especially as it may apply in this case. Nor should the average player have to be. If they are permitted to play the games, the casino should be paying up.

    FWIW, I visited Belgium this summer and asked beforehand at both 32Red and Videoslots, and was told they did not offer services to Belgium. So I didn't try to deposit and play.

    The OP was trying to have a freeroll at the casino's expense. If that was not his intention when he began playing, it certainly seems to be the song he is singing now.
     
  8. Nov 7, 2016
  9. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    Hi welcome to CM - not wise at all to make any kind of veiled threat against a casino to react to your post ... (in bold) above ... sure fire way to get a pretty quick ban here.

    They are ways to submit a complaint but trying to bully a casino into taking action wont work.

    As for your issue way i see it - you lost 6k and and because you say you didnt know they were not licensed in Belgium you want this money back ?

    Sorry i dont buy it. Bit of a tall one ... and I cant see 32red coughing up on this one. Unless of course from there perspective it was not legal from them to take your bets. But geo blocking should have fixed that .... if they dont allow Belgium IPS ... I could be wrong but is this not a case of your looking for a loop hole to get the money you lost back. If you had won 6k would you still have requested 32red to take back your winnings because of the above issue ?

    32red are a rock solid outfit so Im sure Mark the rep will respond to you. And they are very few if any issues with them.

    Like I said I could be wrong and if so will eat my hat but until then ...

    edit : you were not using any kind of proxy were you ? Which are very easy to work out as there does seem to be some confusion on your IP address ...
     
  10. Nov 7, 2016
  11. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Meister Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    The crux seems to be that the 32RED Live Casino is provided by Evolution Gaming and they might have a Belgian license. Can't be bothered to check. :oops:

    Hence, why the Live Casino was available to the OP as it does not fall under the normal 32RED license.

    OP, good luck getting your 6K.....i would tell you to get lost, to be honest. You tried everything to get access to the casino and now that you lost you want the money back. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  12. Nov 7, 2016
  13. Phoenix81

    Phoenix81 Dormant account

    Location:
    London
    responding here to thread

    Harry_BKK and others: I didn't try everything to get access to the casino. At the time, I noted the online casino did not allow me to play for real money but live casino did. I am typically a live casino player. At the time of playing, I was unaware of 32Red being an unlicensed operator in the Belgian market. This is mentioned on their website which I discovered later on. The point of the matter is because I was in Belgium and playing at my hotel with a Belgian IP (I don't have a proxy or even know what this is for that matter), 32Red should not have accepted my deposits and allowed me to play for real money in the first place while being in Belgium. I should therefore be refunded as 32Red is not a licensed operator to provide Evolution Gaming Live Casino in Belgium.

    I am awaiting 32Red's formal response before taking this up further with said regulatory bodies.
     
  14. Nov 7, 2016
  15. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    Like Harry said I would also told you to get lost. I've read a lot over the years with people trying to get back their losses, but not this one. Really childish behaviour.

    I'm sure 32Red have such things written in their T&C's that it's the players responsibility to check if it's legal to play where he is. I didn't want to go through all of their rules but this was one part. Internet gambling may be illegal in the jurisdiction in which you are located. If so, you are not authorised to use your payment card to complete any transactions on the Sites.

    Good luck:rolleyes:
     
  16. Nov 7, 2016
  17. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    Despite all the points presented, how can anybody keep repeating the same argument? Had the 6K been turned into 100K through what is 'fraudulent and illegal' play in Belgium, would it have been returned to the casino?

    No, it wouldn't have been.

    Sounds more like a public- forum shaming tactic designed to get money returned.

    Where's Poirot when you need him :confused:
     
  18. Nov 7, 2016
  19. mimi26

    mimi26 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    nurse
    Location:
    uk
    Honestly its threads like this that make me realise just what these online casinos have to protect themselves against.

    OP you lost your money and are now looking for a get out clause to get it back, if I was 32red I would hand you your coat and bolt the door behind you
     
  20. Nov 7, 2016
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    32Red may see this as a "problem gambler" issue. The OP has already deposited and lost £65K in the space of 8 months, and is happy to take the hit, yet is now arguing over £6K that was played and lost whilst in Belgium. This looks like someone who has gotten in too deep and needs to find a way to limit the damage, so an opportunity to recover £6K is tried.

    However, if it turns out the live casino IS licenced in Belgium, after all it isn't being blocked whilst the main casino is, then the deposits of £6K were taken quite legally.


    Had a player WON a considerable sum whilst on holiday, with the lack of IP blocking giving the impression there was no problem with this, nearly everyone (including me) would be saying "pay up" to the casino. Casinos that try to use a different interpretation depending on whether the player won or lost don't go down well here, so the argument has to hold in reverse in order to be fair.

    Has there been a case where 32Red have confiscated winnings from any of it's players because they won whilst in Belgium (or any other blocked country), even though they were a citizen of a country where 32Red was licensed to provide services?
     
  22. Nov 7, 2016
  23. Phoenix81

    Phoenix81 Dormant account

    Location:
    London
    Who has the legal right to my deposits then? Why should 32Red claim access to them when it is not a legal operator in Belgium?

    My fundamental point is my access should have been blocked while in Belgium by 32Red and the proper technology has not been put in place by 32Red and consequently allows for such transactions to take place which are not regulated in nature.
     
  24. Nov 7, 2016
  25. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    So are you saying that if you were at home and played these exact same games - with a similar outcome, you wouldn't have a complaint? If so, sounds like an opportunist to me.
     
  26. Nov 7, 2016
  27. Phoenix81

    Phoenix81 Dormant account

    Location:
    London
    evolution, the live casino, is regulated by belgium for certain operators, but 32red is not a licensed operator to provide that live casino in its offering in belgium. also 32red is not a licensed operator in belgium full-stop.
     
  28. Nov 7, 2016
  29. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    I really think you just looking for a loop hole to cover your losses. Im sorry you got into trouble gambling I really am. But rather than spending time and energy trying to get a casino to pay back what you decided to gamble focus on getting help with your addiction. You made a choice and have to live by that. And on checking 32red were never black listed from Belgium it is a license issue not a black list which imply s they had done something wrong. I really dont think you stand a chance with this ... and why not look at blocking software such as gamblock which will stop you accessing any gambling sites when installed on your devices. That way no matter where you are abroad there is at least something to give you time to pause before depositing.
     
  30. Nov 7, 2016
  31. Phoenix81

    Phoenix81 Dormant account

    Location:
    London
    "32red were never black listed from Belgium it is a license issue not a black list which imply s they had done something wrong."

    32redbingo is blacklisted from Belgium. Surely, if 32Red are operating without a license in Belgium and took my deposits, that does mean they are doing something wrong in Belgium...I refuse to be a guinea pig and don't feel they have a legal right to claim my deposits while gambling online in Belgium.

    This has nothing to do with problem gambling. It is a contravention of regulated gaming markets...why should 32Red profit from this?
     
  32. Nov 7, 2016
  33. AnnaTS

    AnnaTS Experienced Member MM

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    England
    I don't know what licence 32 red have but if your intentions were to try and prove 32 red were doing wrong it would only take for you to do a small bet and get al the screenshots needed but you went and gambled 6k away which gives the impression you wasn't.
     
  34. Nov 8, 2016
  35. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    Thats a serious allegation do you have proof of the 32red group being "black listed" ..? Its not about you refusing to be a guinea pig. You knew exactly what you were doing , lost big time and now spitting your dummy out wanting pay back. Man up take the hit and move on. You make it sound like your on some moral crusade .... facts are clear you lost and are struggling with that loss. Such alas is gambling :cool:
     
  36. Nov 8, 2016
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom


    ....because it's pretty certain that YOU would have been more than happy to profit from this illegal activity were you to have WON £6K.

    It is unlikely that 32Red will simply hand back the 6K, so you would have to take formal legal action either here or in Belgium to recover it. There is no guarantee that Belgian law specifies that the casino has to void all the bets after the fact even if they are convicted and fined for the offence of operating there without a license. Indeed, it would be near impossible where the player had won and already been paid.

    Much of the regulation is not REALLY about player protection in any case, it's more to do with revenue protection for the state, state monopolies, and competing outfits that can afford to hire lobbyists to stay on the government's case.

    There would be more chance of getting the 6K back by using the "problem gambler, 32Red should have spotted it and stopped me earlier" route, however this has failed in the UK courts as well as having succeeded. It all depends on the details of the case and the degree to which the casino could have known at the time.
     
  38. Nov 9, 2016
  39. danchop

    danchop Full Member

    Location:
    new zealand
    thanks for the heads up
    im now crossing belguim off my bucket list of places to visit on holiday,it must be boring....
    Your as bad as me trying to find any loophole to get off traffic offences,i generally give up if my loophole is self centered and prone to "what drugs are you on?" looks from lawyers/friends/prostitutes, who i confide my loopholes in.
     

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