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Phil Ivey loses £7m claim against UK casino

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by fun4all, Oct 8, 2014.

    Oct 8, 2014
  1. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

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    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
    4 people like this.
  2. Oct 8, 2014
  3. conker

    conker Super Moderator CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Marketer
    Location:
    UK
    Not heard of that Punto Blanco game, must be new.

     
  4. Oct 8, 2014
  5. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    This really surprises me. I thought for sure he would win this case.

    Did he ever admit to edge sorting? I think it would be impossible to prove he did that.

    I can only see him losing this if he admittedly knew or they proved that he knew the gaming device (cards) were flawed/broken and used that to his advantage.

    Is this case a precedent for edge sorting?
     
  6. Oct 8, 2014
  7. vorcirion

    vorcirion Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    pokerplayer
    Location:
    Tampere
    didn't Sean Connery play that game in James Bond? :)
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Oct 8, 2014
  9. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Narnia
    Ivey must be the biggest AP in the world.

    This is not the first time things like this have happened to Ivey. There was another case surrounding Blackjack I think.
     
  10. Oct 8, 2014
  11. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    So was this deemed to be cheating or was it simply a "not in the spirit of the game" type thing?
     
  12. Oct 8, 2014
  13. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

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    2 people like this.
  14. Oct 8, 2014
  15. neilw

    neilw Moderator of Live Games forum CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Moderator of Live Games forum
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    Kent - England

    IMO I thought he'd win. The Casino were complicit in allowing it to happen and to state that the dealer didn't know what was happening is unbelievable at an establishment like that.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Oct 8, 2014
  17. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I thought it was cheating myself but it's one of those borderline things that could easily divide opinion - hence the need for a court case I guess. As usual, only one winner: the lawyers LOL.

    I wonder too whether it occured to the judge that ruling the other way could have opened a can of worms. Find a friendly dealer who could use a million quid and you would have had a precedent to be able to do this legally.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Oct 8, 2014
  19. suzecat

    suzecat Dormant account CAG MM webmeister

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    Hope he does better with Borgata lawsuit. :eek:


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    2 people like this.
  20. Oct 8, 2014
  21. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    Occupation:
    gambler :)
    Location:
    Northants
    Looks like he is traveling the globe using the same tactics :)

    Is it cheating? I would say its certainly on the crooked side,

     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Oct 8, 2014
  23. Ragnaros

    Ragnaros Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Restaurant manager
    Location:
    America
    Did he get his deposit returned or winnings + deposit confiscated?
     
  24. Oct 9, 2014
  25. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

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    "After four sessions he was told that his £7.7m winnings would be wired to him, but when he got back to the United States he found he had only had his original stake money of £1m returned."
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    1 person likes this.
  26. Oct 9, 2014
  27. kavaman

    kavaman Senior Member PABnononaccred3 PABnononaccred3 MM

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    We are kind of in the borderline here. This is basicly the same as card counting in blackjack. Anyhow im sure this will divide people if its illegal or not. Im pretty sure ivey did not think trough when he said he was doing edge sorting considering he might get sued by another establishment where he had won.
     
  28. Oct 9, 2014
  29. rshkrn

    rshkrn Senior Member

    Occupation:
    unemployed
    Location:
    Asia
    guess he'll just shrug it off.....he's already won and will win lot more than that in poker
     
  30. Oct 9, 2014
  31. MillyOfLeValley

    MillyOfLeValley Experienced Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Run a cafe
    Location:
    Left of the valley via the scenic route

    Geeez, so million dollar lawsuits over alleged cheating are just an ordinary day for Phil Ivey
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Oct 10, 2014
  33. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

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    Narnia
    The problem here is that defining words like "cheating" is incredibly hard to do without finding exceptions.
    It might seem like something strange to say but I know it through philosophy.

    I have heard of philosophers who have asked questions like; what is courage.
    It may seem like an easy thing to do but if you try, you are probably looking at many years of work. You'll probably give up after awhile unless it's important.

    I'm pretty sure this is the problem; the word "cheat" is not defined.

    Lawyers would probably know this well, as they use it to their advantage.
     
  34. Oct 10, 2014
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
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    United Kingdom
    The difference here may be that in order for this to work, he had to trick the croupier into changing the way the game was dealt, thus "influencing the game". A case of a player who used a laser device and computer to predict which quadrant a ball would land on during Roulette WON their case against the casino, which had sued the player for the money he had won by "cheating". The judge in that case considered that the player had merely observed, albeit with a computer and laser, and did nothing to affect the outcome or the mechanics of the game.

    Had the croupier not been tricked into rotating cards, and instead Phil had relied on some defect of the pattern alone, he would most likely have won. It seems that merely observing and taking advantage of an error is not cheating, but once you have to start manipulating the staff or the game apparatus, it IS cheating, even where the success is down to naivety on the part of casino staff.
     
    5 people like this.
  36. Oct 10, 2014
  37. michielm1

    michielm1 Senior Member mm1

    Occupation:
    teamleader/techical operator
    Location:
    Nederland
    so if you dont mark any cards yourself, why is it still cheating?
    its the casino's fault, it didnt change decks after a certain anount of hands.
    just like counting cards i think its bull sh!t its not allowed.
    if you win due to extremely effective usage of your own brains, eyes and ears,
    you shouldn't be able to get 'robbed' like this.

    was something discribed in the casino's T&C's?
    if the casino would have won 7 million from a person because of a discrepancy,
    would they even consider on paying the victim (s) back?
    if a company calls back a batch of cards or dice, or slots or whatever,
    would the casino's that won because of the error, pay their customers back their money?

    as a customer you can hardly proof anything, and the personal opinion of a judge and the ignorant actions of some dumb ass punto banco dealer, cost someone >7 million pounds???
    did the dealer give back the tip of a thousand pounds to ivey??? i doubt it
     
  38. Oct 10, 2014
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    He could always appeal, it's quite a bit of money at stake.

    These cases serve to show just where the dividing line lies between legitimate advantage play and cheating. Card counting and smuggling in a hi-tech device in an effort to beat the house is legitimate advantage play, but duping casino staff into assisting is over the line, and is classed as cheating, at least by this court and judge. A different judge may have ruled "fair play to him", and suggested the casino should have been smarter. I expect he was able to influence the croupier because he was a VIP player with deep pockets, and as we know, casinos are SO keen to separate the rich players from their cash that they will bend the rules a little, and far from being a mistake on the part of a member of staff, it's "following company policy" to pander to the whims of players who are prepared to walk in with a million dollars to play.
     

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