PayPal and online eWallets

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
Hi everyone,

Just a heads up about UKGC liscenced online casinos who accept PayPal and other ewallet merchants.

It seems casinos are able to bypass certain laws here which doesn't really sit well with me as a self confessed problem gambler.

I had a few issues I won't go into here with William Hill who accept no liability nor PayPal for that fact. However it seems if a player has a gambling freeze on a debit card it is possible to still deposit via PayPal (seems completely counter productive as most casinos accept PayPal).

My biggest concern is that PayPal admitted that its entirely possible to top up a PayPal balance with a credit card then deposit to an online casino as they never share the payment method with a merchant. As you are all probably aware this is now illigeal as per new UKGC legislation which came into affect in April of this year.

All seems to be 1 step forward 2 steps back for me, is it just me or is this completely counterproductive? Casinos should be working with merchants to iron all this stuff out, it's leaving problem gambler completely exposed to backdoor entrances when they have made efforts to stop this.

How do we work on fixing this to ensure vulnerable people are protected?

Correct me
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Paypal first line support are pretty awful, a bit like most casinos live chat. There are measures in place to stop credit card funded paypal accounts being used for gambling transaction, as there is on other payment wallets. You can get round it fairly easily, but if someone really wants to use a credit card they will.
 

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
Paypal first line support are pretty awful, a bit like most casinos live chat. There are measures in place to stop credit card funded paypal accounts being used for gambling transaction, as there is on other payment wallets. You can get round it fairly easily, but if someone really wants to use a credit card they will.
They said all you would have to do is transfer the funds to the PayPal balance, then deposit to the online casino. Completely pointless, they need to be help to the same regulations here. There needs to be some communication between them otherwise these steps are completely pointless.
 

danofthewibble

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2018
Location
UK
You can't regulate everything. And I have at least one card which does not allow gambling transactions at all, and it's never been possible to use it for that purpose through Skrill or Paypal. Even if it appears as an option, the card provider still blocks it at authorisation stage.

There are of course ways around the credit card block, e.g. withdraw cash, pay the cash to Paypal's bank details. But the idea is to make it more difficult - you can't stop everything.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
Debit cards ok to use through any MSB:s, Credit cards not. If you can deposit with method which is funded by credit card, operator should not allow it. Some casino operators might not be fully up to date with these and still allow some deposits which are funded by credit card (like Revolut which is used as example here) but most should be by now.

Paypal support probably don't follow every industry they process payments, wouldn't be surprised if they all can't list all exceptions and regulations to payments they process.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Revolut isn't a credit card? It's also impossible to deposit with into casinos, which is a pain as its the main account I used. Can't fund Skrill or Paypal using it, to deposit with.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
Revolut isn't a credit card? It's also impossible to deposit with into casinos, which is a pain as its the main account I used. Can't fund Skrill or Paypal using it, to deposit with.

Nope, but it can be topped up with credit card so therefore it shouldn't be allowed anymore for UK players, others it's ok.

I have no problems with Revolut deposits but probably have different BIN in it than UK customers or places where i use it only have blocked these BIN:s from UK (what at least should be done).

edit: Seems Revolut themselves stopping gambling transactions in UK:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
Last edited:

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
yeah they did, but you can use credit cards on plenty of other similar services and they are allowed. Fact is, Revolut is a Mastercard debit card, not a credit card and not subject to the UKGC ban, despite what Revolut claim.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
yeah they did, but you can use credit cards on plenty of other similar services and they are allowed. Fact is, Revolut is a Mastercard debit card, not a credit card and not subject to the UKGC ban, despite what Revolut claim.

UK licensed casinos shouldn't accept these transactions from these services. Many casinos blocked them before Revolut themselves (didn't know before now that they have done something like that, still last week some operators received Revolut deposits before they realized they need to block them from UK).

Like in this link i posted above (again below), UKGC expect casinos not to accept these kind of deposits from MSB:s which can be funded with credit card. Just start to contact all who does, they should get it fixed :)

For clarity, and further to specific queries raised by operators, this includes electronic money institutions such as Revolut which has confirmed that its customers can add money using credit cards. Operators must therefore put systems in place to prevent gambling payments from these products.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

k6kaysix

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Location
UK
Rizk accepted in that if you had no PayPal balance you could go through PayPal and pay using your linked bank account (very dangerous - payments do not actually leave your actual bank until several days later, could probably get into debt!)

LeoVegas accept PayPal but seemed to force linking up a debit card to your PayPal rather than the above bank method

Of course there are always work arounds! If you are really that desperate you could get a credit card, go to a cash machine, withdraw physical cash (for a very handsome fee of course!), then bank transfer it into a PayPal account (just a standard bank transfer with a specific reference ID, I believe you could carry this out at a high street bank branch even if you didn't have a bank account with said bank!)
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
Or just buy pre-paid cards/vouchers and use them. It's just something UKGC wanted and now no deposits related to credit card should be accepted. There are loads of workarounds like above, but these providers you can top-up with credit card shouldn't be allowed.

Paypal is easiest to link certain card, then it's easy to know if it's debit or credit, Skrill and others have option to opt-in/out gambling transactions etc.. Not sure how much this make people life better but they got what they wanted and can now say they don't let people gamble with credit (of course you can take payday loans with huge interest but main thing was to ban credit cards).
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
Surely the individual has to take some responsibility for their actions, addicted or not?

The UK is becoming regulated to within an inch of its life already; in this quasi-nanny state, if people want to try and circumvent guidelines then that's their own look out. It does, however, take the biscuit when people look to circumvent of their own accord and then go whingeing that it was possible to do so.

The vast majority of us are thoroughly sick and fed up of intrusiveness into our gambling life because their is a vocal minority who feel they are owed something back because of their addiction. It sounds harsh but if you have an addiction you have a choice to make...a hard route or an easy route. The easy route is to give in to your urges, the hard route takes will power and resolve and comes from within, not via someone fixing it for you.

Most addictions are linked to mental health issues and until the underlying cause is sorted, the addictions will be there in the background. There are a myriad of counsellors who specialise in gambling related anxiety and depression etc which are more effective than the arbitrary guidelines of the UKGC etc in the protection of players. Again, it takes personal accountability and acceptance to get to that point though.
 

GameRoom

Banned troll
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Location
Trollville
if you really want to play with credit card money you go to ATM get cash out and play,is simple and UKGC can't stop it,problem never go away
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Paypal and many ewallets are now dinosaurs in the real world. They are both slow and cumbersome compared to what we have over here in Hong Kong and China. With the Fast Payment System anyone can register with a bank and send/receive money within seconds provided you register it with your phone number, email account or FPS ID. These old fossils need a real overhaul to compete in the fast-moving world.

Paypal had made it clear when they were swallowed by ebay more than a decade ago they do not get involved in funding of gambling so on this alone the casino in question is unethical. Folks should avoid this one.
 

Moom

Newbie member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Location
UK
Surely the individual has to take some responsibility for their actions, addicted or not?

The UK is becoming regulated to within an inch of its life already; in this quasi-nanny state, if people want to try and circumvent guidelines then that's their own look out. It does, however, take the biscuit when people look to circumvent of their own accord and then go whingeing that it was possible to do so.

The vast majority of us are thoroughly sick and fed up of intrusiveness into our gambling life because their is a vocal minority who feel they are owed something back because of their addiction. It sounds harsh but if you have an addiction you have a choice to make...a hard route or an easy route. The easy route is to give in to your urges, the hard route takes will power and resolve and comes from within, not via someone fixing it for you.

Most addictions are linked to mental health issues and until the underlying cause is sorted, the addictions will be there in the background. There are a myriad of counsellors who specialise in gambling related anxiety and depression etc which are more effective than the arbitrary guidelines of the UKGC etc in the protection of players. Again, it takes personal accountability and acceptance to get to that point though.


I disagree with you here. As somebody who is not addicted to gambling, I support more regulation and think most people do. I think most gamblers know the industry is full of dodgy characters and companies and want them to be regulated to hell and back. It is counter productive of you as a consumer to attack the victims of gambling addiction instead of the gambling companies. It absolutely is a shady industry, and regulation is needed.

I rarely meet gamblers who don't think the industry is shady.
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Location
Glasgow and Home - N Ireland
I disagree with you here. As somebody who is not addicted to gambling, I support more regulation and think most people do. I think most gamblers know the industry is full of dodgy characters and companies and want them to be regulated to hell and back. It is counter productive of you as a consumer to attack the victims of gambling addiction instead of the gambling companies. It absolutely is a shady industry, and regulation is needed.

I rarely meet gamblers who don't think the industry is shady.

Tbf, although there are outliers, i don't think there's an abundance of dodgy casinos with a UK licence (888 etc excluded) - the increased regulation isn't going to make a jot of difference to the true dodgy ones as they'll simply operate as they always have done and there's not a lot, seemingly, the UKGC or others can/will do anyhow.

What other additional regulation do you want to see out of curiosity?

Not sure the bulk of people want more regulation, maybe better/more targeted regulation - certain politicians/pressure groups/The Guardians activists (sorry, journalists) obviously do so they can try and catch a ride on the wave of populism.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
UK licensed casinos shouldn't accept these transactions from these services. Many casinos blocked them before Revolut themselves (didn't know before now that they have done something like that, still last week some operators received Revolut deposits before they realized they need to block them from UK).

Like in this link i posted above (again below), UKGC expect casinos not to accept these kind of deposits from MSB:s which can be funded with credit card. Just start to contact all who does, they should get it fixed :)



You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

What revolut could do is put a system in place whereby money added from a credit card can't be used for gambling transaction codes. Same as Skrill have done for years.

I do actually agree with the credit card ban, I said a few years ago they should be banned. You shouldn't be allowed to gamble on credit, it's far to easy to chase losses.
 

Moom

Newbie member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Location
UK
Tbf, although there are outliers, i don't think there's an abundance of dodgy casinos with a UK licence (888 etc excluded) - the increased regulation isn't going to make a jot of difference to the true dodgy ones as they'll simply operate as they always have done and there's not a lot, seemingly, the UKGC or others can/will do anyhow.

What other additional regulation do you want to see out of curiosity?

Not sure the bulk of people want more regulation, maybe better/more targeted regulation - certain politicians/pressure groups/The Guardians activists (sorry, journalists) obviously do so they can try and catch a ride on the wave of populism.

I have played at alot of online casinos in the UK, and find the majority of them are shady. Even casinos rated highly are shady. For example, Trada (before the move to aspire), they broke UKGC regulations and then doubled down and denied it all when I approached them about it. I contacted the UKGC and forwarded the email explaining to them why they are wrong and they told me they do not care and I was just fishing for a refund (something I never asked for). I contacted the manager and she ignored me. I put in a request for my data shortly after, and they ignored me. They ignored me for months. Then I called them out over it on here and they immediately sent me my data. All very nice on here, but extremely rude via customer service.

Because I am not somebody who lets things go. The issue with Trada was allowing me to deposit and gamble without being verified. It would have been easy for me to just send my ID and move on. Most people would have and moved on. I did send my ID but I wouldn't allow them to just move on from it. I don't let things go. I will whine on and on about a casino who breaks regulations and refuses to fix the issues. I understand mistakes, but cannot and will not allow casinos to double down on mistakes. It happens so much in this industry.

One that comes to mind immediately is reverse withdrawal option. That should not be allowed at any UKGC licensed casino. More needs to be done about asking for verification at withdrawal. Casinos find ways around this by claiming AML laws. They will verify you at registration (as they should) but then claim AML on a small withdrawal so they can delay a withdrawal and drag it out for a week or two. During that time your withdrawal can easily be reversed.
 

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
I disagree with you here. As somebody who is not addicted to gambling, I support more regulation and think most people do. I think most gamblers know the industry is full of dodgy characters and companies and want them to be regulated to hell and back. It is counter productive of you as a consumer to attack the victims of gambling addiction instead of the gambling companies. It absolutely is a shady industry, and regulation is needed.

I rarely meet gamblers who don't think the industry is shady.
I completely agree with you here mate, I think it's right the industry sjould be heavily regulated. Just seems like with every new step taken there is always a back door some how that operators are turning a blid eye to this.

Sometimes it's not as easy as being addicted then calling it a day. These steps are ment to be put in place on the off chance that you show a sign of weakness and get a 'computer says no' kind of response stopping any type of damage being done. But that simply is not happening, the banks adhere to the rules so why should ewallet providers not have to stick to the policy's of they are providing a service for gambling merchants.
 

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
I have played at alot of online casinos in the UK, and find the majority of them are shady. Even casinos rated highly are shady. For example, Trada (before the move to aspire), they broke UKGC regulations and then doubled down and denied it all when I approached them about it. I contacted the UKGC and forwarded the email explaining to them why they are wrong and they told me they do not care and I was just fishing for a refund (something I never asked for). I contacted the manager and she ignored me. I put in a request for my data shortly after, and they ignored me. They ignored me for months. Then I called them out over it on here and they immediately sent me my data. All very nice on here, but extremely rude via customer service.

Because I am not somebody who lets things go. The issue with Trada was allowing me to deposit and gamble without being verified. It would have been easy for me to just send my ID and move on. Most people would have and moved on. I did send my ID but I wouldn't allow them to just move on from it. I don't let things go. I will whine on and on about a casino who breaks regulations and refuses to fix the issues. I understand mistakes, but cannot and will not allow casinos to double down on mistakes. It happens so much in this industry.

One that comes to mind immediately is reverse withdrawal option. That should not be allowed at any UKGC licensed casino. More needs to be done about asking for verification at withdrawal. Casinos find ways around this by claiming AML laws. They will verify you at registration (as they should) but then claim AML on a small withdrawal so they can delay a withdrawal and drag it out for a week or two. During that time your withdrawal can easily be reversed.

Completely agree with you on the reverse withdrawal option, in March the UKGC outlined that all liscenced operators should put this in place with immediate affect to help protect vulnerable people during the lockdown. This is something William Hill have not yet implemented. I used to work in business development maintaining systems and know for a fact this is an afternoons work at best.
 

Moom

Newbie member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Location
UK
Completely agree with you on the reverse withdrawal option, in March the UKGC outlined that all liscenced operators should put this in place with immediate affect to help protect vulnerable people during the lockdown. This is something William Hill have not yet implemented. I used to work in business development maintaining systems and know for a fact this is an afternoons work at best.
I actually did not know this. Is this something the UKGC advised or is it something that is within the LCCP? Can they fine over failure to comply this one?
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Completely agree with you on the reverse withdrawal option, in March the UKGC outlined that all liscenced operators should put this in place with immediate affect to help protect vulnerable people during the lockdown. This is something William Hill have not yet implemented. I used to work in business development maintaining systems and know for a fact this is an afternoons work at best.

It wasn't with immediate effect, it was as soon as possible.
Obviously, 3 months later, any casino still offering reverse is taking the piss, but they claim, they haven't been able to do it so far, so get away with it.
 

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
It wasn't with immediate effect, it was as soon as possible.
Obviously, 3 months later, any casino still offering reverse is taking the piss, but they claim, they haven't been able to do it so far, so get away with it.

Minced my wording abit there, was just free flowing.

The actual guidance form the UKGC was,

Prevent reverse withdrawal options for customers until further notice.

Completely agreed taking the piss is exactly right, like I said it's an afternoons work at most.
 

Dave182

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Location
Uk
I actually did not know this. Is this something the UKGC advised or is it something that is within the LCCP? Can they fine over failure to comply this one?

Not entirely sure, as Colin said wasn't immediate but 3 months is taking the piss abit. This is what is quoted on the UKGC website with regmquards to it:

The Commission has reviewed its current guidance in light of the risks that some players may be experiencing harm while in lockdown, and online operators must now take account of the Commission’s additional guidance, which makes clear they should:

  • Prevent reverse withdrawal options for customers until further notice [3]
  • Cease to offer bonuses or promotions to all customers who are displaying indicators of harm
  • Interact with customers who have been playing for an hour in a single session of play
  • Review thresholds and triggers for new customers to reflect the operator’s lack of knowledge of that individual’s play and spend patterns
  • Conduct affordability assessments for individuals picked up by existing or new thresholds and triggers which indicate consumers experiencing harm - limiting or blocking further play until those checks have been concluded and supporting evidence obtained, and;
  • Implement processes that ensure the continual monitoring of their customer base – identifying patterns of play, spend or behaviours have changed in recent weeks.
Online operators will be expected to make changes to act on this guidance as soon as possible. The Commission will bring forward plans to consult on whether further targeted player protection measures are required on a permanent basis.

Seen as though the lockdown has pretty much ended surely this should have been done by now.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
Other regulator often give some new regulations and date when these need to be implemented and if not, you breach regulations, very simple. If you just tell operators to do something and not giving exact date when it need to be done, no surprise that many are not in hurry with it.

Would it have been so difficult to give that exact date like one or two weeks from moment operators receive communication? Then send communication which you change quite fast after is just making operators really confused wtf they want and which is final version... That one hour interaction part especially had to be re-phrased when even there somebody realized that interacting all who are logged in one hour to gambling site is bit non-sense.
 
Top