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PartyCasino Unfair Terms

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by 3dfella, Jun 27, 2009.

    Jun 27, 2009
  1. 3dfella

    3dfella Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    UK
    Partycasino have hidden away in their terms and conditions a clause which I came across purely by accident when trying to make a withdrawal. I say trying as my withdrawal was bounced back into my account and I was provided with an email stating that I had not accrued enough "Party Points" to make a withdrawal.

    I had wagered my deposit through a few times and then submitted a withdrawal request and didnt think any more of it. It transpires that you must accrue party points equivelent to 15% of your deposit before you can withdraw your funds. Now this wouldnt be so bad if say for example it was a term put in place to prevent money laundering or people making deposits without wagering but it isnt.

    It seems to me that this clause is specifically designed to force you to lose money.

    Not all games accrue points equally and my game (Blackjack) required me to wager over 100x my deposit in order to withdraw. Let me repeat that - 100X my deposit on my chosen game! This is with no bonus but purely playing for fun!

    I have seen an awful lot of strange and unfair terms imposed by casinos but this is ridiculous.

    Suffice to say I wont be playing at Party Casino again.
     
    4 people like this.
  2. Jun 27, 2009
  3. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    If you and I are interpreting these T&C's correctly they are totally unacceptable and if used, as in your case, to force unfair wagering restrictions on vanilla deposits then they need to be put in the rogue list.

    10. CASH OUTS

    Your account balance is the amount of real money held in Your Account (if any), plus any winnings and/or minus any losses accrued from using the Services, less any rakes or entry or other fees, if applicable, and less any amounts previously withdrawn by You or amounts forfeited or reclaimed by Us due to any known or suspected fraud or due to deposits or other transactions rejected or cancelled by Your bank or any relevant third-party bank (whether as a result of insufficient funds, charge-backs or otherwise), any Inactive Account Fees (see Section 11 below) or any sums which are otherwise deductible or forfeited under these Agreements ('Account Balance'). Before You are able to cash out monies deposited by You or received by way of Inter-Account Transfer or Gift Certificate You must first have earned Standard Player Points with such monies (excluding any bonus points awarded) greater than or equal to15% of the amount received in USD ("Release Requirements"). Where such monies are deposited or received in a currency other than USD, the required 15% of Player Points must be calculated on the value of such monies in USD (based on the exchange rates offered by Us at the point of cash out. Please see Currency Converter). In addition, acceptance of a cash out request is subject to any deposit method restrictions, bonus restrictions and/or Security Reviews (see Section 16 below) and any other terms of these Agreements. All amounts You withdraw are subject to the transaction limits and any processing fees for deposits and withdrawal methods that We notify You of before cashing out. For further details of current deposit and cash out options and fees please see PartyCashier. Further, We may report and withhold any amount from Your winnings in order to comply with any applicable law. All taxes due in connection with any winnings awarded to You are Your sole liability. Account balances cannot be transferred, substituted or redeemed for any other prize. Payment of funds which You withdraw shall be made by cheque, wire, credit card and/or any other manner which We select in Our sole discretion, although We will try to accommodate Your preferences as indicated by You when You register. Payments will be made as soon as reasonably possible, although there may be delays due to any Security Review (see Section 16 below) undertaken by Us and save where We hold any such payments in accordance with these Agreements.
     
  4. Jun 28, 2009
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Party casino seem to be "reputable" given how they are allowed to advertise on the telly, but these must be the most predatory terms ever seen. They are worse than Winward, who made it compulsory to wager plain deposits 30x.

    Party casino are preying on the "newbies" here in the UK, through the TV adverts and program sponsorships. Even seasoned players often miss such things. It is in deliberately "long winded" language that might tempt people to skip such a large congested paragraph, perhaps dismissing it as "legalese" which to does look like on first inspection.
    The term also seems to give the casino wide ranging and unspecified permission to void winnings, confiscate balances, dick players around with cash-ins "at the management's discretion".

    Should be "not recommended" at the very least due to these terms (which would actually be ILLEGAL in the UK, falling foul of both the old unfair consumer contracts law (biased unfairly towards the casino - little or no rights to customer), and also under the new trading laws, which specifically outlaw 31 "business practices" as well as give the consumer extra rights to have terms of business CLEARLY DEFINED (no woolly subjective clauses).

    In reality, these terms are designed to penalise players who don't take bonuses, as those who DO take bonuses are likely to meet the "party points" criteria alongside meeting wagering requirements. The bonuses are also likely to steer (or force) players to play slot games rather than blackjack.

    I would suggest a PAB, so that this can be investigated, and maybe a casino warning - pretatory terms will result. This might get their attention, and they might decide to remove the predatory terms.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Jun 28, 2009
  7. 3dfella

    3dfella Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    UK
    Glad to see Im not alone in finding these terms offensive. I wouldnt be looking to use my one freeshot PAB on this issue but will send a message to highlight the thread so that at least the issue is not buried.
     
  8. Jun 28, 2009
  9. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I invited Party Casino to respond to this either me directly by email or here (link supplied)
    So far no response.
    These T&C's are scandalous as far as I can see and I urge CM to have Party Casino at least on the not recommended list until they respond and try and justify this.
    If they can't or fail to modify or remove this term they should be thrown in the rogue pit.
    There seems to be a lot of apathy here to recent scandals - even if you do not play at these places you should be making your voice heard.
     
  10. Jun 28, 2009
  11. kmay87

    kmay87 Meister Member PABnononaccred PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    England
    I was aware that Party used this system when it came to bonus WR, in that you had to not only meet the WR but also collect a minimum number of Party Points, which, in my opinion, was a way for them to make it appear that all games counted in what were very reasonable terms. I think we could understand if they wanted say a 1x deposit turnover to save on costs, but this is just obscene.

    I wonder just how many people have been caught out by this.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jun 28, 2009
  13. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Absolutely, a reasonable condition to prevent unnecessary processing costs would be acceptable but this is not.
     
  14. Jun 28, 2009
  15. 3dfella

    3dfella Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    UK
    I would also like to add that the value is calculated based on USD so if as I did you deposit in a currency which is stronger, then your deposit is converted to the dollar amount and the 15% is based on that. So if you deposit 1000 GBP they convert it to 1500 USD and require you to acheive party points equivelent to 15% of that which is 225 rather than equivelent to 112.50 which is 15% of GBP.

    It really is terrible. Here is a list of how the points are accrued:

    Single-deck blackjack $200
    Roulette $50
    Las Vegas Downtown Blackjack $150
    Baccarat $50
    Progressive slots $25
    Table poker $25
    Video poker $20
    Slots $10
    Keno $10
    Casino War $20
    Red Dog $20
    Blackjack Bonus Pairs $25
    Virtual racing $5

    So if I am playing Single Deck BJ with a 1000 deposit I must acheive 225 party points and need to wager 200*225 which is 450,000 just to be able to cashout my own money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Please tell me I have calculated this wrongly!
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Jun 28, 2009
  17. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    That is why I have invited Party Casino to explain.
    If they are conspicuous by their absence then they should be thrown in the pit or at the very least put on the not recommended list and a warning issued.
    Perhaps we are misreading the meaning of such abstruse Terms but since they are intentional abstruse I very much doubt it.

    The First sentence alone contains Six commas, Four sets of brackets,Thirteen "or", a couple of "and", as well as a forward slash for good measure.

    I also doubt very much that it is presented in unattractive block text by accident either.

    The person who wrote it should be put against a wall and shot (without a blindfold)
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jun 28, 2009
  19. De Beuker

    De Beuker Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Production
    Location:
    Netherlands
    You have, its only 45.000, ONLY 45.000 WR before you can cash out on your own money, or whats left of it.
    Bonus: 0 WR: 45x deposit.
    Now ain't that a real bargain?:rolleyes:
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Jun 29, 2009
  21. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Here is Party Casinos response;

    Thank you for contacting Customer Service.

    As you know, before a player creates an account with us, he must agree to our Terms and Conditions. These Terms and Conditions are the same for all our players and when a customer agrees to them, he needs to abide by those rules. You can check the full Standard Terms and Conditions of Use from the link below:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    The rule of accumulating a certain amount of points before being able to make a withdrawal is indeed present in our Terms and Conditions. This condition exists solely for security purposes to prevent players from using their accounts with us simply as a tool to transfer money in and out. After all, we are a gaming site and the basic idea to transfer money into an account should be to use the funds for gaming purposes.

    Also, in the same section of the Terms and Conditions there is a link to our 'How to Earn PartyPoints' page, which shows in details how a player can earn points on our different games. This way our customers can check how it would be most convenient for them to collect the required 15% in points and be able to make a withdrawal. You can check out those details from the link below:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    As you can see, we do not hide any information from our players, and we - the Customer Service - are always there if anyone needs clarification on the matter. I hope I have managed to explain our position on the matter to you. If a specific player has any complaints or needs further assistance on the matter, we would appreciate it if he addresses us directly by writing us an email or simply giving us a call - because this is the only way we can give account-specific information.

    If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us at any time.

    Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site.

    Best Regards,

    Atanas,


    So it would seem Blackjack players would have to wager 45Xdeposit before allowed to cashout and Party Casino see this as convenient for the player.

    Bryan?
     
  22. Jun 30, 2009
  23. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    After seeking further clarification I have received a reply from Party Casino that this interpretation of their Terms is correct.
    A deposit without bonus would indeed need to be wagered 45X on blackjack before the player is eligible to cashout their own funds.
    This is the reason they give for imposing such unfair restrictions.

    This rule of earning 15% of the deposit amount in Party Points is there for security purposes. This is to prevent unlawful activities such as money dumping, money laundering, etc.

    This obviously a nonsense reply.
    The fact that such wagering requirements are buried within a block of text that is almost unfathomable and these wagering requirements are surreptitiously implemented and disguised by being stated as "15% of deposit in party points" instead of broken down into plain English is strong evidence this is nothing more than a scam to force players to play when they may otherwise wish not to do so.


    Surely these are unfair terms and potential players need to be warned before depositing.
     
  24. Jun 30, 2009
  25. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    If you want B to weigh in on this it might be wise to alert him to it via PM. There's a lot of stuff on his plate and it could take a while for him to pop in here if he's busy elsewhere.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Jun 30, 2009
  27. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Thanks Max, I PM'd him just after posting as I was surprised he had not commented on this.
    I sometimes forget how busy he must be.
     
  28. Jun 30, 2009
  29. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Yeah, I'm taking care of a number of things at the moment - to include reflooring the room in the attic, and goin' to town on the weeds in the back. Never a dull moment. :p

    I'll contact the people over at Party Gaming to see if they can take a look at this. I can understand protecting oneself from money laundering - thus a wagering requirement for regular play (no bonus), but 45x seems a bit steep to me. Side note - didn't 888.com have something similar? Can't remember.

    Nevertheless, it should not be hidden - but we are responsible to read ALL terms and conditions, aren't we?
     
    2 people like this.
  30. Jun 30, 2009
  31. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Yes I agree but the Casino has a moral responsibility to ensure those T&C's are clear and fair to the player.
    As you can see the T&C is neither of these.

    If they have a T&C stating they will remove every second deposit would that make it OK?
    I sent them a follow up email myself before posting and I will PM you with the correspondence I have had with them.
     
  32. Jun 30, 2009
  33. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I don't buy the money laundering part - unless they allow money to be transferred to other accounts.

    If a deposit is made without bonus, the maximum playthrough I would personally tolerate is 1x deposit.
     
    3 people like this.
  34. Jun 30, 2009
  35. WonderingSpirit

    WonderingSpirit Casino critic

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Scandinavia
    15% of 1000 is 150. 150*200 = 30,000 not 450,000 which equals 30x WR

    progressive slots makes it 3,75 xWR
    slots 1,5 x WR
    virtual racing 0,75 x WR

    I cashed out a few times at partygaming. Didnt know about the 15% of deposit wagered, but has never had any problems cashing out. So if I understand this right, If I make a deposit of 50$ I must get 7,5 $ worth of partypoints
     
  36. Jul 1, 2009
  37. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    100 deposit=15 points@ $200 per point for BJ so yes 30X deposit.

    Yes you would need 7.5 Party points on a $50 deposit.
     
  38. Jul 1, 2009
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Their response is bullshit. The bit about players having to check for the most convenient way to accumulate points is all about FORCING players to play a fair bit of slots with their gameplay, whether or not they have taken a bonus.

    Winward casino pulled this stunt on a player who steadfastly refused to accept the welcome bonus, which Winward were trying to insist was compulsory. They agreed not to give the bonus to the player, but told them they had to wager the deposit 30x anyway, the same as if they had accepted the bonus.

    Their response is a bit like saying - "If we have set a trap in our terms, it is the player's responsibility to find it".

    There are LAWS about unfair terms, it is NOT the case legally that just because a customer slipped up & agreed to something they should have avoided like the plague it becomes binding. The terms can be assessed to see whether they are fair to the consumer. In law, the consumer is NOT expected to be a qualified legal expert, and terms can be classed as unfair if they are not clearly written, yet impose harsh conditions.

    The "money laundering" excuse simply does not wash:p

    There is no need for anywhere NEAR a 30x or 45x WR on a plain deposit to be imposed, in fact, this is most probably a breach of the rules surrounding responsible gambling, as the terms prevent any meaningful bankroll management by players, and in particular the ability to cash out all, or some, of their pile after a big win, or a good run.
    Nearly all casinos impose a 1x WR on deposits to prevent "money laundering", and others limit the number of FREE deposits and withdrawals a player may make, which is another method of preventing excessive churning of funds.
    Once a player has supplied all their ID to the casino, and this has been verified, then the risk almost vanishes UNLESS it is possible to move money from one player to another, such as by "chip dumping"

    Responsible gambling has been discussed at length, and the BIGGEST problem has been where players have been unable to get their winnings out of their casino balance, or where a reverse is available for an extended time, and players give in to temptation.

    The terms at Party push all the WRONG buttons. The player is forced to have their bankroll available in their casino balance until they have earned this 15% in Party Points, and this presses ANOTHER "wrong" button for the player who wants to get a win out quickly, but lacks the points - they will bet big to "get it over with", and will more likely than not lose it all.
     
    3 people like this.

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