Online casino questions (RTP +)

Bloatgoat

Senior Member
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Nov 29, 2017
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Somewhere
Hi,

I got a quick and brief question. Most casino's seem to license their games from game providers, which usually decide the RTP and all that. A player makes a deposit on casino Y and if won the casino pays in this case the play. A player can deposit and lose as well. The game provider is the party that pays the casino ?

Another thing; if you win with bonus terms applied (wagering), where are the big wins actually going through? Your playing for the casino at that very moment right? So i could imagine that the bonus thing is a very important role for the casino as well.

I know for instance landbased casino's can decide which RTP on slots are applied. So how is this done with online? I know the RTP on landbased machines are usually tested with 100.000 spins on avg, and online it's running over 1.5 billion spins. They have a very different approach to calculate the RTP over time.

I'm getting spammed by this one particular casino, not naming anything now, but they obviously want to keep players playing. It got me thinking; and this info is not something the VIP manager is going to send to me.
 

sapit222

Ueber Meister
PABaccred
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There is much info to read on the forum if you search a bit. :thumbsup:

The casino "rent" the games from the providers, but its the casino that pays if you win, not the provider.
If its a progressive jackpot then it can be the provider, like Microgaming.

If your getting spammed by a casino, then its probably better to stay away from it.
 

spiker1977

Experienced Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Location
Finland
If your getting spammed by a casino, then its probably better to stay away from it.

Agree, if some casino is spamming you, better stay away from them. If some casino is too eager to give you bonuses (now a days when all are cutting down on rewards).
Something smells fishy about that casino(tin hat on). :what:
 

Bloatgoat

Senior Member
webby
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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Somewhere
Yeah i'm kind of sceptical for so many websites; they all put lots of effort in marketing but no real inside facts related to what the business model of a online casino is. But we know license is'nt free at all; so my bet is that they are paying for licensing of games. Even tho RTP at the gaming provider is set over a 1.5 billion spins or so, there must be a cut for every spin for every player coming from casino Y right?
 

Aryol

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Location
DE
Yeah i'm kind of sceptical for so many websites; they all put lots of effort in marketing but no real inside facts related to what the business model of a online casino is. But we know license is'nt free at all; so my bet is that they are paying for licensing of games. Even tho RTP at the gaming provider is set over a 1.5 billion spins or so, there must be a cut for every spin for every player coming from casino Y right?

They pay money per spin to the provider, this is for example stated at the Netent page. If it's a progressive jackpot mostly the game providers are paying it, because of this casinos should have an exception with withdrawing limits...

So if you don't win a jackpot like sapit wrote, the casino will have the "cost" of paying you.

(Edit: I am sorry did not saw the date...)
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Hi,

I got a quick and brief question. Most casino's seem to license their games from game providers, which usually decide the RTP and all that. A player makes a deposit on casino Y and if won the casino pays in this case the play. A player can deposit and lose as well. The game provider is the party that pays the casino ?

Another thing; if you win with bonus terms applied (wagering), where are the big wins actually going through? Your playing for the casino at that very moment right? So i could imagine that the bonus thing is a very important role for the casino as well.

I know for instance landbased casino's can decide which RTP on slots are applied. So how is this done with online? I know the RTP on landbased machines are usually tested with 100.000 spins on avg, and online it's running over 1.5 billion spins. They have a very different approach to calculate the RTP over time.

I'm getting spammed by this one particular casino, not naming anything now, but they obviously want to keep players playing. It got me thinking; and this info is not something the VIP manager is going to send to me.

You ignored my answer in the other thread, so I'll repeat it here.

Online and Land-based games are not calculated differently... this is a total lie and misinformation. How many games (spins) the RTP is calculated over is entirely game dependent and is based on the complexity of the maths.

Online games and Land-based games also work the same way in terms of RTP choice... the game providers make a game with a range of RTPS (the range is much bigger in land-based) and the casinos choose which one to run the game at. Simples.

Also, if you win with bonus terms applied (wagering) the big wins are going to you...but the casino won't let you withdraw them. Bonuses require wagering to make sure that you can't beat the casino... it has to be neutral at best of slightly in their favour. If all slots were 95% the a wagering of 20x would be about neutral. Of course, they aren't. Just avoid any casino with high wagering or withdrawal limits on bonuses.
 
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Bloatgoat

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So your like playing for the casino in this case since their crazy wagering limits / rules? This is exactly why i avoid playing with any bonusses. A normal landbased casino does'nt give you bonusses as well, well free money i can understand but i've never seen it in Holland nor Portugal (estoril = biggest landbased in the EU! with over 1200 machines lol).

@trancemonkey > What is your standpoint on Deviation? See
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
and ignore the Rigged for a moment here. It seems to me that the deviation on landbased casino's is much higher compared to online, am i correct?
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
...
Also, if you win with bonus terms applied (wagering) the big wins are going to you...but the casino won't let you withdraw them. Bonuses require wagering to make sure that you can't beat the casino... it has to be neutral at best of slightly in their favour. If all slots were 95% the a wagering of 20x would be about neutral. Of course, they aren't. Just avoid any casino with high wagering or withdrawal limits on bonuses.

Wrong on so many accounts apart from withdrawal limits. The wast majority of bonuses are EV+ for the player and 20x is far from neutral. You make the same mistake as many others and assume the bonus is always fully wagered.
 

trancemonkey

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Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Wrong on so many accounts apart from withdrawal limits. The wast majority of bonuses are EV+ for the player and 20x is far from neutral. You make the same mistake as many others and assume the bonus is always fully wagered.

Please can you prove that mathematically..
 

trancemonkey

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Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
So your like playing for the casino in this case since their crazy wagering limits / rules? This is exactly why i avoid playing with any bonusses. A normal landbased casino does'nt give you bonusses as well, well free money i can understand but i've never seen it in Holland nor Portugal (estoril = biggest landbased in the EU! with over 1200 machines lol).

@trancemonkey > What is your standpoint on Deviation? See
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
and ignore the Rigged for a moment here. It seems to me that the deviation on landbased casino's is much higher compared to online, am i correct?

Standard Deviation is a measure of volatility. Again, there is very little difference between online and Land-based. I'd argue that there are lot more high volatility games online than in land-based. But there is a selection of all sorts of maths profiles both online and in land-based.

Also, VLT markets tend to have higher volatility games than casinos but that's very market specific.
 

trancemonkey

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Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Easily. For example 100+100 50xB WR, 96% RTP, betsize 2 on some hv slot the bust rate is roughly 85% and average wagering 35%. EV= 100-(1750x0,04) so EV is 30.

If I play 200 through at 96% once, I will have 192 left on average at the end. That's once through. If I do that 20 times I should have 82 left on average.
 

zap987

Meister Member
PABnononaccred2
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Location
Sweden
You are missing the average wagering part. Every time you bust out before you reach 20x wagering, you're wagering less. You only actually do the full wagering when you're winning.
 

Bloatgoat

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Is this normal? Adding a 150 euro 'bonus' and require a 7000+ euro wagering amount. That's bullshit. That's more then 47 times almost.
 

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