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Nigel207 vs Lucky247

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by nigel207, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. nigel207

    nigel207 Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum

    Occupation:
    Web Design
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Be aware that this casino has a term that allows them to confiscate your winnings if you reduce your bet size AT ALL after having a win, I contacted the rep and they "looked into it" but refused to restore my balance. There is a term on their page that covers this, but they do not explain at all what the reduction is, what games it applies to, or how much of a reduction you can make before they decide it it is necessary to confiscate. I told them they should at least define their terms, they refused, avoid this site if you plan on doing anything other than betting the same exact size on the same exact slot the entire time you have a bonus.
     
  2. tinybettor

    tinybettor Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Retail Store Manager
    Location:
    Australia
    Wow, if that is true then that sucks. Where's the fun in only being restricted to the same betsize for the duration of the wagering. I hope the casino can clarify this term because it definitely doesn't seem fair.
     
  3. mrmark21

    mrmark21 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Telecommunications Consultant
    Location:
    australia
    That sounds really rogueish. Thanks for the heads up :)
     
  4. Sachalucky

    Sachalucky Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Hi all,

    Thanks for the messages.

    @Nigel207: While I won't discuss your account directly here, the version you have given above is far from accurate I'm afraid. We have PMed regarding this and discussed it at length, and you were invited to PAB should you be unhappy with the outcome of our discussion.

    Please feel free to PM me or PAB should you wish to discuss this further, but your post above is in no way a reflection of the way Lucky247 operates, and we will from our end alert CM about it.

    Regards,

    Sacha
     
  5. mrmark21

    mrmark21 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Telecommunications Consultant
    Location:
    australia
    I believe what Nigel may be referring to is term fourteen from your promotional T&Cs:

    All Players’ wagers will be reviewed for irregular game play patterns prior to any withdrawal being processed. Equal, zero, low margin or hedge betting will be construed as irregular game play for bonus wagering requirements. This also includes and is not limited to the placing of bets equal to or greater than 20% of the bonus credited to the players gaming account. This also includes and is not limited to the gameplay that involves placing bets at high wagering values and then reducing it to lower values after large wins in order to achieve play through requirements. Should the Casino deem that any irregular game play has taken place on the gaming account, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any cashin as well as the right to confiscate all winnings.

    Does this term apply to slots?

    So lets say I've deposit $20 and gotten the 100% welcome bonus for a $40BR and I'm trying a variety of bets. I start off on an 80c bet get a good win so up my bet to $1.20 get another good win, but hang on I still haven't gotten the feature and it feels as though its been close to three hundred spins so I reduce the bet, still not getting the feature I reduce the bet again, then I realize I've finished WR. I've had two good wins but I haven't gotten any features so I decide to withdraw.

    Hang on doesn't that mean I've broken that term by reducing my bet size? Will I still get paid? Does this term apply to slots? So really any kind of variance in bet size during slot play could mean I've broken a term? I'm no expert just curious.
     
  6. maxd

    maxd Casinomeister's Player Arbitration (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    @ nigel207 : given that the casino is doing the Baptism by Fire and there is some dispute regarding the facts of your post I invite you to file a Pitch-A-Bitch so that your complaint can be investigated.

    Please note that if you choose not to take the PAB route then I'll have to assume that you are willing to have us discuss your case with the casino OUTSIDE of the privacy of the PAB process.
     
  7. nigel207

    nigel207 Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum

    Occupation:
    Web Design
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Here is what you pm'ed me:

    Hi Nigel207,

    In our T&Cs, You must register/login in order to see the link., term 8.2 defines this issue clearly - % itself is not the only criterion.

    In the event that To Play Central (Ltd) believes You are abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or You are likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gambling policy adopted by To Play Central (Ltd), To Play Central (Ltd) may at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from You any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy either temporarily or permanently, or terminate Your access to the Services and/or block Your account. In such circumstances, To Play Central (Ltd) shall be under no obligation to refund to You any funds that may be in Your accounts other than Your original deposit amounts, this includes and is not limited to:

    8.2.1 Moving from high wager values to low wager values, after high pay out values to achieve play through requirements. Such game play will be investigated for bonus abuse and game play will be subject to review and if deemed to be abuse all winnings will be voided.

    Thanks & Regards,

    Sacha

    In my case, I bet $20 on slots, hit a nice win, and changed my bet to $3, and that is precisely what you decided was "bonus abuse" that "violated the spirit of the bonus" and confiscated. You say specifically in your pm to me that moving from a higher wager value to a lower wager value is "bonus abuse", and further you say that changing the bet is not the only criterion you can use, and its entirely at your discretion. In other words, you have terms that allow you to confiscate based on whatever it is you feel like is "bonus abuse" and no hard definitions of what is or is not allowed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. nigel207

    nigel207 Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum

    Occupation:
    Web Design
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Sure, you have my permission to discuss it with them, I don't need privacy about having my balance confiscated.
     
  9. Mouche12

    Mouche12 Kitty Lover PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Translator and facilities manager
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Mmm, not such a great start for a Baptism by Fire... I think that particular clause in the T&Cs relating to high/subsequent lower bets in order to meet WR should be removed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. maxd

    maxd Casinomeister's Player Arbitration (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Fair enough. I'll be in touch.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Rustee

    Rustee Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Online Gambler
    Location:
    Cardiff
    bla bla bla bla ......lol....yolo , lets get this started!

    Sounds like a valid point I mean a casino with these terms would be damn-near able to regulate withdrawals. I have a better idea, hows about we have those 247 luggers post your game play review on here and then everyone can give their 2c? It probably wont happen but I have to try either way.lol
    Haven't seen what a "game play review" looks like so would be keen to see how this correlates to what you are saying and what they are saying. Again, pushing boundaries but I think it would put this matter as well as the matter of my curiosity to rest ;)
     
    2 people like this.
  12. Sachalucky

    Sachalucky Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Hi all,

    Thanks for your messages.

    Please note that we are looking into the matter and that CM is involved - I'm not ignoring any of you! :)

    I simply would like CM to review the issue before we post any further, for both the player's and the casino's benefit.

    Thanks,

    Sacha
     
  13. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    well guys im not sure what went on , but i can say i changed my bet alot & didnt run into any problems via this site albeit i didnt go for the bets you made, never the less i did change up & down , balance didnt end up being held up or taken away . in fact i had a good session with a fast cashout , so i shall look for what max points out as i think there good to go , silly term granted but thats what the bof section is for to sort out things :D
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Shorty

    Shorty Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Germany
    I deposited 25 Euro a few days ago and was able to withdraw 100 Euro. Played the welcome bonus and changed betsizes all the time but i had no problems cashing out.

    Sacha was very nice and helped me to get my withdraw to skrill. I like the casino. I will definitely play there again :thumbsup:
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. maxd

    maxd Casinomeister's Player Arbitration (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Apologies to all for the delays, my fault. Busy busy!

    I am in touch with Sacha and we're discussing the Nigel207 issue. Stay tuned.
     
  16. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The problem is the term. It does not specify by how much the bet can drop without being considered "abuse". This, unfortunately, turns it into a "spirit of the bonus" term because no player can know beforehand what is acceptable, and what is not.

    Other casinos have used specific quantities, such as a drop to a quarter or less of the original bet. Such a specific term would catch this drop without making it a "spirit of the bonus" issue.

    Rather than the drop being extreme, maybe the initial $20 bet was too high, and this is also something that can be catered for in the terms. 32Red, for example, have a term for the welcome bonus that limits the maximum bet to £6.25, although recently I have seen a £10 figure appear in this term. Other casinos specify the max bet as a percentage of the bonus credited, with 25% or less being the norm.

    Being able to enforce these rules via the software would be ideal, and the Microgaming Viper lobby has come close to this by enabling operators to set a lower max coin size when a bonus is in play. One browser based casino has also managed to limit access to prohibited games when the bonus balance is brought into play.
     
    2 people like this.
  17. Przecinek

    Przecinek Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    CSA
    Location:
    Respect-land
    I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what Lucky 24/7 has been doing? Setting up max coin value in accordance to your deposit so that players don't have to worry about max bet rule?

    This was all covered here: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...-winnings-saying-i-over-wagered-my-bonus.html

    And I praised Lucky247 for that. Guess I did that prematurely :(
     
  18. Przecinek

    Przecinek Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    CSA
    Location:
    Respect-land
    Well I also changed my bets up & down, and didn't have any problems but that doesn't mean casino is solid as I'm sure we both didn't win anything close to what Nigel could have won with a bet of $20/spin. I agree with your BOF comment thought. We have an open discussion here so that t&c can be tweaked and any problems ironed out.

    Stilll, this type of arbitrary confiscation behaviour always leaves a degree of uncertainty.
     
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is no help in a case such as this. It would prevent bets that are too big, but won't police a drop in bet size.

    What they could do though is to set a "spread", rather than just a max coin value based on the deposit. If possible, disable the ability to play less than max lines on a slot when a bonus is in play.

    Ideally, this would be done dynamically as the player plays, but would be very hard to implement.

    This case may be a reflection of the max bet being set too high, allowing too much leeway when it comes to dropping the bet.

    As such terms get ever more complicated (and vague in some cases), there is a greater argument for insisting on software policing, which in effect forces the operator to choose whether or not to accept or decline a wager at the time it is placed, rather than at some time in the future after it has been resolved and paid. This is something to bring up during the consultation currently being run by the UKGC.
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Just to chime in - the casino has forwarded some information concerning this issue that indicates this player is connected to other accounts. We're looking into this at the moment.

    Please note that the term in question is quite broad, and that "bonus abuse" is mentioned. Not to get tied up once again in semantics but I believe in this case it is multiple accounts that are "abusing" or taking advantage of bonuses.
     

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