Nigel207 vs Lucky247

nigel207

Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Location
Nottingham
Be aware that this casino has a term that allows them to confiscate your winnings if you reduce your bet size AT ALL after having a win, I contacted the rep and they "looked into it" but refused to restore my balance. There is a term on their page that covers this, but they do not explain at all what the reduction is, what games it applies to, or how much of a reduction you can make before they decide it it is necessary to confiscate. I told them they should at least define their terms, they refused, avoid this site if you plan on doing anything other than betting the same exact size on the same exact slot the entire time you have a bonus.
 

tinybettor

Dormant Account
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Location
Australia
Be aware that this casino has a term that allows them to confiscate your winnings if you reduce your bet size AT ALL after having a win

Wow, if that is true then that sucks. Where's the fun in only being restricted to the same betsize for the duration of the wagering. I hope the casino can clarify this term because it definitely doesn't seem fair.
 

Sachalucky

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Location
Cape Town
Hi all,

Thanks for the messages.

@Nigel207: While I won't discuss your account directly here, the version you have given above is far from accurate I'm afraid. We have PMed regarding this and discussed it at length, and you were invited to PAB should you be unhappy with the outcome of our discussion.

Please feel free to PM me or PAB should you wish to discuss this further, but your post above is in no way a reflection of the way Lucky247 operates, and we will from our end alert CM about it.

Regards,

Sacha
 

mrmark21

Dormant Account
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Location
australia
Hi all,

Thanks for the messages.

@Nigel207: While I won't discuss your account directly here, the version you have given above is far from accurate I'm afraid. We have PMed regarding this and discussed it at length, and you were invited to PAB should you be unhappy with the outcome of our discussion.

Please feel free to PM me or PAB should you wish to discuss this further, but your post above is in no way a reflection of the way Lucky247 operates, and we will from our end alert CM about it.

Regards,

Sacha

I believe what Nigel may be referring to is term fourteen from your promotional T&Cs:

All Players’ wagers will be reviewed for irregular game play patterns prior to any withdrawal being processed. Equal, zero, low margin or hedge betting will be construed as irregular game play for bonus wagering requirements. This also includes and is not limited to the placing of bets equal to or greater than 20% of the bonus credited to the players gaming account. This also includes and is not limited to the gameplay that involves placing bets at high wagering values and then reducing it to lower values after large wins in order to achieve play through requirements. Should the Casino deem that any irregular game play has taken place on the gaming account, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any cashin as well as the right to confiscate all winnings.

Does this term apply to slots?

So lets say I've deposit $20 and gotten the 100% welcome bonus for a $40BR and I'm trying a variety of bets. I start off on an 80c bet get a good win so up my bet to $1.20 get another good win, but hang on I still haven't gotten the feature and it feels as though its been close to three hundred spins so I reduce the bet, still not getting the feature I reduce the bet again, then I realize I've finished WR. I've had two good wins but I haven't gotten any features so I decide to withdraw.

Hang on doesn't that mean I've broken that term by reducing my bet size? Will I still get paid? Does this term apply to slots? So really any kind of variance in bet size during slot play could mean I've broken a term? I'm no expert just curious.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Be aware that this casino has a term that allows them to confiscate your winnings if you reduce your bet size AT ALL after having a win....

@ nigel207 : given that the casino is doing the Baptism by Fire and there is some dispute regarding the facts of your post I invite you to file a Pitch-A-Bitch so that your complaint can be investigated.

Please note that if you choose not to take the PAB route then I'll have to assume that you are willing to have us discuss your case with the casino OUTSIDE of the privacy of the PAB process.
 

nigel207

Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Location
Nottingham
Here is what you pm'ed me:

Hi Nigel207,

In our T&Cs,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, term 8.2 defines this issue clearly - % itself is not the only criterion.

In the event that To Play Central (Ltd) believes You are abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or You are likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gambling policy adopted by To Play Central (Ltd), To Play Central (Ltd) may at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from You any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy either temporarily or permanently, or terminate Your access to the Services and/or block Your account. In such circumstances, To Play Central (Ltd) shall be under no obligation to refund to You any funds that may be in Your accounts other than Your original deposit amounts, this includes and is not limited to:

8.2.1 Moving from high wager values to low wager values, after high pay out values to achieve play through requirements. Such game play will be investigated for bonus abuse and game play will be subject to review and if deemed to be abuse all winnings will be voided.

Thanks & Regards,

Sacha

In my case, I bet $20 on slots, hit a nice win, and changed my bet to $3, and that is precisely what you decided was "bonus abuse" that "violated the spirit of the bonus" and confiscated. You say specifically in your pm to me that moving from a higher wager value to a lower wager value is "bonus abuse", and further you say that changing the bet is not the only criterion you can use, and its entirely at your discretion. In other words, you have terms that allow you to confiscate based on whatever it is you feel like is "bonus abuse" and no hard definitions of what is or is not allowed.
 

nigel207

Banned User - bogus complaint - violation of forum
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Location
Nottingham
@ nigel207 : given that the casino is doing the Baptism by Fire and there is some dispute regarding the facts of your post I invite you to file a Pitch-A-Bitch so that your complaint can be investigated.

Please note that if you choose not to take the PAB route then I'll have to assume that you are willing to have us discuss your case with the casino OUTSIDE of the privacy of the PAB process.

Sure, you have my permission to discuss it with them, I don't need privacy about having my balance confiscated.
 

Mouche12

Kitty Lover
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Location
Amsterdam
Mmm, not such a great start for a Baptism by Fire... I think that particular clause in the T&Cs relating to high/subsequent lower bets in order to meet WR should be removed.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Sure, you have my permission to discuss it with them, I don't need privacy about having my balance confiscated.

Fair enough. I'll be in touch.
 

Rustee

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Location
Cardiff
bla bla bla bla ......lol....yolo , lets get this started!

Here is what you pm'ed me:

Hi Nigel207,

In our T&Cs,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, term 8.2 defines this issue clearly - % itself is not the only criterion.

In the event that To Play Central (Ltd) believes You are abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or You are likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gambling policy adopted by To Play Central (Ltd), To Play Central (Ltd) may at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from You any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy either temporarily or permanently, or terminate Your access to the Services and/or block Your account. In such circumstances, To Play Central (Ltd) shall be under no obligation to refund to You any funds that may be in Your accounts other than Your original deposit amounts, this includes and is not limited to:

8.2.1 Moving from high wager values to low wager values, after high pay out values to achieve play through requirements. Such game play will be investigated for bonus abuse and game play will be subject to review and if deemed to be abuse all winnings will be voided.

Thanks & Regards,

Sacha

In my case, I bet $20 on slots, hit a nice win, and changed my bet to $3, and that is precisely what you decided was "bonus abuse" that "violated the spirit of the bonus" and confiscated. You say specifically in your pm to me that moving from a higher wager value to a lower wager value is "bonus abuse", and further you say that changing the bet is not the only criterion you can use, and its entirely at your discretion. In other words, you have terms that allow you to confiscate based on whatever it is you feel like is "bonus abuse" and no hard definitions of what is or is not allowed.

Sounds like a valid point I mean a casino with these terms would be damn-near able to regulate withdrawals. I have a better idea, hows about we have those 247 luggers post your game play review on here and then everyone can give their 2c? It probably wont happen but I have to try either way.lol
Haven't seen what a "game play review" looks like so would be keen to see how this correlates to what you are saying and what they are saying. Again, pushing boundaries but I think it would put this matter as well as the matter of my curiosity to rest ;)
 

Sachalucky

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Location
Cape Town
Hi all,

Thanks for your messages.

Please note that we are looking into the matter and that CM is involved - I'm not ignoring any of you! :)

I simply would like CM to review the issue before we post any further, for both the player's and the casino's benefit.

Thanks,

Sacha
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
well guys im not sure what went on , but i can say i changed my bet alot & didnt run into any problems via this site albeit i didnt go for the bets you made, never the less i did change up & down , balance didnt end up being held up or taken away . in fact i had a good session with a fast cashout , so i shall look for what max points out as i think there good to go , silly term granted but thats what the bof section is for to sort out things :D
 

Shorty

Newbie member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Location
Germany
I deposited 25 Euro a few days ago and was able to withdraw 100 Euro. Played the welcome bonus and changed betsizes all the time but i had no problems cashing out.

Sacha was very nice and helped me to get my withdraw to skrill. I like the casino. I will definitely play there again :thumbsup:
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Please note that we are looking into the matter and that CM is involved - I'm not ignoring any of you!

Apologies to all for the delays, my fault. Busy busy!

I am in touch with Sacha and we're discussing the Nigel207 issue. Stay tuned.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Here is what you pm'ed me:

Hi Nigel207,

In our T&Cs,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, term 8.2 defines this issue clearly - % itself is not the only criterion.

In the event that To Play Central (Ltd) believes You are abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or You are likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gambling policy adopted by To Play Central (Ltd), To Play Central (Ltd) may at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from You any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy either temporarily or permanently, or terminate Your access to the Services and/or block Your account. In such circumstances, To Play Central (Ltd) shall be under no obligation to refund to You any funds that may be in Your accounts other than Your original deposit amounts, this includes and is not limited to:

8.2.1 Moving from high wager values to low wager values, after high pay out values to achieve play through requirements. Such game play will be investigated for bonus abuse and game play will be subject to review and if deemed to be abuse all winnings will be voided.

Thanks & Regards,

Sacha

In my case, I bet $20 on slots, hit a nice win, and changed my bet to $3, and that is precisely what you decided was "bonus abuse" that "violated the spirit of the bonus" and confiscated. You say specifically in your pm to me that moving from a higher wager value to a lower wager value is "bonus abuse", and further you say that changing the bet is not the only criterion you can use, and its entirely at your discretion. In other words, you have terms that allow you to confiscate based on whatever it is you feel like is "bonus abuse" and no hard definitions of what is or is not allowed.

The problem is the term. It does not specify by how much the bet can drop without being considered "abuse". This, unfortunately, turns it into a "spirit of the bonus" term because no player can know beforehand what is acceptable, and what is not.

Other casinos have used specific quantities, such as a drop to a quarter or less of the original bet. Such a specific term would catch this drop without making it a "spirit of the bonus" issue.

Rather than the drop being extreme, maybe the initial $20 bet was too high, and this is also something that can be catered for in the terms. 32Red, for example, have a term for the welcome bonus that limits the maximum bet to £6.25, although recently I have seen a £10 figure appear in this term. Other casinos specify the max bet as a percentage of the bonus credited, with 25% or less being the norm.

Being able to enforce these rules via the software would be ideal, and the Microgaming Viper lobby has come close to this by enabling operators to set a lower max coin size when a bonus is in play. One browser based casino has also managed to limit access to prohibited games when the bonus balance is brought into play.
 

Przecinek

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Location
Respect-land
Being able to enforce these rules via the software would be ideal, and the Microgaming Viper lobby has come close to this by enabling operators to set a lower max coin size when a bonus is in play. One browser based casino has also managed to limit access to prohibited games when the bonus balance is brought into play.

I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what Lucky 24/7 has been doing? Setting up max coin value in accordance to your deposit so that players don't have to worry about max bet rule?

This was all covered here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ings-saying-i-over-wagered-on-my-bonus.58171/

And I praised Lucky247 for that. Guess I did that prematurely :(
 

Przecinek

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Location
Respect-land
well guys im not sure what went on , but i can say i changed my bet alot & didnt run into any problems via this site albeit i didnt go for the bets you made, never the less i did change up & down , balance didnt end up being held up or taken away . in fact i had a good session with a fast cashout , so i shall look for what max points out as i think there good to go , silly term granted but thats what the bof section is for to sort out things :D

Well I also changed my bets up & down, and didn't have any problems but that doesn't mean casino is solid as I'm sure we both didn't win anything close to what Nigel could have won with a bet of $20/spin. I agree with your BOF comment thought. We have an open discussion here so that t&c can be tweaked and any problems ironed out.

Stilll, this type of arbitrary confiscation behaviour always leaves a degree of uncertainty.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what Lucky 24/7 has been doing? Setting up max coin value in accordance to your deposit so that players don't have to worry about max bet rule?

This was all covered here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ings-saying-i-over-wagered-on-my-bonus.58171/

And I praised Lucky247 for that. Guess I did that prematurely :(

This is no help in a case such as this. It would prevent bets that are too big, but won't police a drop in bet size.

What they could do though is to set a "spread", rather than just a max coin value based on the deposit. If possible, disable the ability to play less than max lines on a slot when a bonus is in play.

Ideally, this would be done dynamically as the player plays, but would be very hard to implement.

This case may be a reflection of the max bet being set too high, allowing too much leeway when it comes to dropping the bet.

As such terms get ever more complicated (and vague in some cases), there is a greater argument for insisting on software policing, which in effect forces the operator to choose whether or not to accept or decline a wager at the time it is placed, rather than at some time in the future after it has been resolved and paid. This is something to bring up during the consultation currently being run by the UKGC.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Just to chime in - the casino has forwarded some information concerning this issue that indicates this player is connected to other accounts. We're looking into this at the moment.

Please note that the term in question is quite broad, and that "bonus abuse" is mentioned. Not to get tied up once again in semantics but I believe in this case it is multiple accounts that are "abusing" or taking advantage of bonuses.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Here is what you pm'ed me:

Hi Nigel207,

In our T&Cs,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, term 8.2 defines this issue clearly - % itself is not the only criterion.

In the event that To Play Central (Ltd) believes You are abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or You are likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gambling policy adopted by To Play Central (Ltd), To Play Central (Ltd) may at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from You any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy either temporarily or permanently, or terminate Your access to the Services and/or block Your account. In such circumstances, To Play Central (Ltd) shall be under no obligation to refund to You any funds that may be in Your accounts other than Your original deposit amounts, this includes and is not limited to:

8.2.1 Moving from high wager values to low wager values, after high pay out values to achieve play through requirements. Such game play will be investigated for bonus abuse and game play will be subject to review and if deemed to be abuse all winnings will be voided.

Thanks & Regards,

Sacha

In my case, I bet $20 on slots, hit a nice win, and changed my bet to $3, and that is precisely what you decided was "bonus abuse" that "violated the spirit of the bonus" and confiscated. You say specifically in your pm to me that moving from a higher wager value to a lower wager value is "bonus abuse", and further you say that changing the bet is not the only criterion you can use, and its entirely at your discretion. In other words, you have terms that allow you to confiscate based on whatever it is you feel like is "bonus abuse" and no hard definitions of what is or is not allowed.

This type of bollox term really annoys me. I understand bet size limits on a bonus, for obvious reasons, but to impose on a player how to bet is ridiculous, and does not befit an accredited site.

So, the player gets a big win on a slot at 20 stake. He realizes this amount is around his overall total WR, say he has 2.5k balance now and a WR of 4k less say Ik already met. So, he has 2.5k to get through 3k of remaining WR. Whatever stake, this is a massively EV+ situation whether he plays 20 stakes or 3 stakes. Remember the slots are RANDOM so changing stake makes no difference apart from either slowing or speeding the process unless the site is suggesting otherwise....

Feeling good that he's likely to cash out a decent profit, he calms down a bit after the good hit and plays the remaining WR out at his leisure, maybe changing the slot. No foul.

The only logic behind this rule is the foil hat worn by the casino management (not supplied by me on this occasion) which makes them think random slot(s) will likely take the big win back if the stake remains the same, as if it's certain a RTP down-curve will occur straight after the big win.

What if, luxuriating in his now-large balance, the player increased the stake to 30 (assuming allowed to) and had another big hit?? Would they remove winnings by the same logic, especially now he couldn't fail to meet WR and make a large profit?

Sorry, but the logic, rationale and paranoia of the casino is ridiculous. De-luxe foil hat with extra long antenna duly sent.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Sure, you have my permission to discuss it with them, I don't need privacy about having my balance confiscated.

I don't understand why you wish not to PAB. Right there is a reason for most everyone here to be suspicious of your intentions. You definitely are not a noob - you seem well versed in what you are doing.

I can say without reservations that you are using this forum as a deliberate attempt to tarnish the reputation of the casino. Please explain to me why this is not the case.
 

bpb

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
PABnonaccred
PABnorogue
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Location
Haverhill
I can say without reservations that you are using this forum as a deliberate attempt to tarnish the reputation of the casino.

The casino is doing a good enough job of that with its absurd terms.
 
Last edited:

Przecinek

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Location
Respect-land
I don't understand why you wish not to PAB. Right there is a reason for most everyone here to be suspicious of your intentions. You definitely are not a noob - you seem well versed in what you are doing.

I can say without reservations that you are using this forum as a deliberate attempt to tarnish the reputation of the casino. Please explain to me why this is not the case.

I for one am very happy that Nigel decided to be transparent, after all if terms are faul and 'spirit of bonus' inducing then it's good if we can see what's happening. Better that, than to think casino is OK when in fact all that happened is that player was paying behind the curtains of a PAB process and bad T&C remain in place for us not to know. If at any point in the future I will feel that a particular casino is not advocating fair play I might post it here for everyone to see, seems reasonable.

Also OP may and should be well versed, if he's playing for $20/spin.
You just don't drop large bets on games you don't know.

Tarnish casino reputation? This is Babtism By Fire, casino has neutral reputation right now. So in my opionion this can only form a reputation that isn't good or bad atm. I think Lucky247 terms should be changed. Letter that was sent to OP is not good enough. I don't understand that... it's like saying that deliberate attempt to tarnish casinos reputation and exposing some of them is a bad thing. Of course if casinos act bad, or stall payments, or look for excuses not to pay (let's see 1000xbet from a $20 spin = $20.000) then I for one would love to "tarnish" their reputation lol
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
It has little to do with any "spirit" at the moment - it has to do with being connected to other players. We are trying to determine what is going on with that. The OP knows full well what he is doing.
 
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