Netent Starburst VERY VERY ANGRY

[goatwack]

So in essence games have a 'memory' of your previous play and also adjust your returns based on how much has been lost prior on said game.

That's not randomness (yeah I went there!)

Add into the mix that we truly do not know from what pool of numbers random numbers are drawn. For example a spin can still be random from a set of 18 symbols instead of twenty, with some of the higher symbols 'rested'.

DOES ANYONE KNOW PLEASE HELP

 

[MrSilver]

Obviously...we all know if you Bet higher...the % and the odds/features you may get completely change.....thinking otherwise would be ludicrous.


indeed, i'll agree with Harry if you bet Larger amount you'll notice your money going away faster, therefore....you feel like you are losing more frequently/faster ects.....for everything else, i'll say it's all in your mind.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Slots could be rigged for sure But if they aren't rigged then the higher you bet the more money the casino makes . So there's no real reason for them to target this specific area . And a high bet for one person is a normal or low bet for another . So do the lower payouts kick in at the same bet levels or is it individually tailored to each player ? No casino is worried about going broke from a succession of big wins at $10 starburst bets . If they are then they have huge financial problems anyway

Brick and mortar casinos often have HIGHER rtps on the higher denom slots . Because they WANT you to play higher . They're not worried about the variance of you hitting some big wins . They know that the more money is wagered the more money they will make

What I'm saying is a casino should be happy that you decide to up your bets . That's what they want you to do ... Further rigging the slots to take more money from you is unnecessary (although of course it is possible because of greed) and may jeopardise their longterm profits either because it discourages you from making big bets in the future or it becomes obvious enough that it gets dicovered.

Remember all the casino cares about is the amount of play happening on its games . It doesnt care if you individually win or lose or if you manage to make a withdrawal . IF $100 million is wagered overall on starburst then they will make $3 million (if the rtp is 97%) . It doesn't matter what bet sizes were used to wager that $100 million or who wagered it

 

[mina1929]

I have been playing Starburst a lot lately I know you will all think I am crazy but I love this game

I have been betting low and been winning and higher and still winning no difference to me really.

A few times I have been betting $2 which I hardly ever do and been winning pretty good but the winning streak does not last forever so cash out while its hot.

 

[lotusch]

As someone who has played a lot of high stakes on netent I've long stop believing that bet size has no bearing on the spin results. It's difficult to prove but I'm quite sure that the odds of hitting some of those high multiples wins is much better on min stakes vs £10+ spins.

It's not just netent either. Play N Go are the same and playing something like Golden ticket at 20p is entirely different than playing at £40 a spin.

WMS can also be added to that list.
When increasing betsize features seem to trigger further and longer in between.
And I have smashed some spins out of WMS games ranging from min bet to like 6-8 euro a pop when up enough.
I dare to say that betsize does matter to some extent.

 

[slotter999]

Some of you may recall there was a bug recently which affected the mobile version of bloodsuckers not paying out correctly for higher stake bets.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...error-money-back-on-casinoeuro.69108/?t=69108

Obviously I do not know the full explanation for what caused the bug but does the fact that the conditions even exist for a bug of this kind to be present add some weight to the idea that different bet sizes are processed differently by netent?

 

[roulettedonkey]

Unfortunate term in the UK for a convicted child-molester. Nonce. I thought you had been playing the Thor bonus round on TS2 for a minute....

I didn't know

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:/

OK, on a serious note you are seeing a potential situation where a seemingly 'random' event can be seeded to produce a random-looking result BUT one that will favour the casino in money terms, i.e. nullify any liability resulting from a player making a large and potentially very costly bet(s)?

I'm not sure I understand. But Dice sites functions more or less the same.

From the players point of view, the "randomness", or "unpredictability" comes from the fact that he doesn't know the server_seed while it is still used to generate the numbers (the player knows only the hash of the server seed).

The random number is actually the result of a hash too:
Let's say I roll

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.
Input :
- server_seed (client doesn't know, doesn't change over the 100 bets)
- client_seed (doesn't change over the 100 bets)
- nonce (is incremented by 1 between each bet - the important thing is that each "nonce" is used only... once, but is not "random", else the player would argue that it was chosen by the admin to make him loose)
Output :
- a string of characters (in hexadecimal), this string is then converted into a number (decimal) between 00.0000 and 99.9999

The numbers generated have uniform distribution, in the mathematical sense. To get a feeling of this this, you can implement the methods in your favorite programing language or see

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with a few thousand simulations (although you'd prefer a few giga or peta-simulations).

BUT one that will favour the casino in money terms

Are we speaking about the house edge here ? It's built-in the payout amount (or multiplier if you prefer).
The formula is (multiplier) = [ 1 - (house edge) ] / (percentage)
An example. Assuming 1% house edge.
Say you start with 100€, you make 100 bets of 1€. You'd expect (ideal case!) to end up with a bankroll of 99€.
That's why the payout is 1.98x for 50% chance bet. To see this "works", suppose the hundred "random" numbers were 0,1,2,3,... 98, 99.0000 (uniform distribution) and you rolled "low" (ie <50.0000). You'd have won
1st bet 1.98€ (0<50.000)
2nd bet 1.98€ (1<50.000)
...
50th bet 1.98€ (49<50.000)
50th bet lost because 50.0000 is not strictly smaller than 50.000)
all remaining bets lost.
Total, you've won 50 times 1.98€, that is 99€.


See, in dice sites there is no "magical" random number appearing out of nowhere, because the player could always reasonably argue that the number (say 52.6838) was chosen to make him loose (if he bet "lo, <50.000").
And the other thing is the outcome of the bet does NOT depend on the amount of the bet. Who can reasonably pretend the same for the online slots you play everyday? It's just a scam unless proven otherwise.

I really don't understand the last part :/

In your example you allege human input - surely this would need a dynamic (but quite simple) algorithm whereby plays are seeded according to the running total on net loss to the casino at any given time. In other words a player who say always bets £10 a spin and has built up losses to-date of say £10,000 may have a better chance of getting a 1200x stake win of 12k (overall loss to the casino 2k to-date) than a new player who has just deposited £100 and plays £10 spins and wins 1200x stake on his third spin? In other words the algorithm has a net loss to-date computation which takes into account the player's overall account status i.e. profit/loss in money terms and can reseed the RNG accordingly?

 

[dunover]

I didn't know

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:/

I'm not sure I understand. But Dice sites functions more or less the same.

From the players point of view, the "randomness", or "unpredictability" comes from the fact that he doesn't know the server_seed while it is still used to generate the numbers (the player knows only the hash of the server seed).

The random number is actually the result of a hash too:
Let's say I roll

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.
Input :
- server_seed (client doesn't know, doesn't change over the 100 bets)
- client_seed (doesn't change over the 100 bets)
- nonce (is incremented by 1 between each bet - the important thing is that each "nonce" is used only... once, but is not "random", else the player would argue that it was chosen by the admin to make him loose)
Output :
- a string of characters (in hexadecimal), this string is then converted into a number (decimal) between 00.0000 and 99.9999

The numbers generated have uniform distribution, in the mathematical sense. To get a feeling of this this, you can implement the methods in your favorite programing language or see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

with a few thousand simulations (although you'd prefer a few giga or peta-simulations).




Are we speaking about the house edge here ? It's built-in the payout amount (or multiplier if you prefer).
The formula is (multiplier) = [ 1 - (house edge) ] / (percentage)
An example. Assuming 1% house edge.
Say you start with 100€, you make 100 bets of 1€. You'd expect (ideal case!) to end up with a bankroll of 99€.
That's why the payout is 1.98x for 50% chance bet. To see this "works", suppose the hundred "random" numbers were 0,1,2,3,... 98, 99.0000 (uniform distribution) and you rolled "low" (ie <50.0000). You'd have won
1st bet 1.98€ (0<50.000)
2nd bet 1.98€ (1<50.000)
...
50th bet 1.98€ (49<50.000)
50th bet lost because 50.0000 is not strictly smaller than 50.000)
all remaining bets lost.
Total, you've won 50 times 1.98€, that is 99€.


See, in dice sites there is no "magical" random number appearing out of nowhere, because the player could always reasonably argue that the number (say 52.6838) was chosen to make him loose (if he bet "lo, <50.000").
And the other thing is the outcome of the bet does NOT depend on the amount of the bet. Who can reasonably pretend the same for the online slots you play everyday? It's just a scam unless proven otherwise.

I really don't understand the last part :/

The last part was asking you if it is possible (well, I know it is programming wise) for a game to limit in money terms the casino's liability. In other words the results are 'random' but seeded differently if the bet amount is large, and a certain result could cost the casino a large amount of cash? Do you think there is a hidden algorithm at work here, connected to the money side of things?

 

[Jono777]

There has to be hundreds of set parameters with these slots, regardless of bet size, provider or umpteen other 'what if's' not particularly dodgy but to protect the casino(s)

A thought I had a few times which sounds daft but could happen and thus would have an impact....

What If... Continuous DOA wild lines were won at casino 'A' and it was making up its RTP (being on the take most of the time) at casinos 'B-Z' ??

Unlikely indeed but imagine this across every slot, some form of safeguard would have to be in place to stop casino 'A' taking the brunt from a fiscal point of view.

When I first set out, I would pretty much win at 32 Red 19/20 and lose 19/20 at Betway, occured way too often to describe it as coincidence.

That's also the day I brought my first even head to toe tin foil outfit which still fits like a glove to this day!

 

[roulettedonkey]

The last part was asking you if it is possible (well, I know it is programming wise) for a game to limit in money terms the casino's liability. In other words the results are 'random' but seeded differently if the bet amount is large, and a certain result could cost the casino a large amount of cash? Do you think there is a hidden algorithm at work here, connected to the money side of things?

Well it can be, say,
if bet >1'000€, then loss.
if bet <1'000€. "normal" play.

Which player has the means to challenge that ? Depending on the mathematical distribution of the very big wins (which by the way is totally unknown) you'd need a few million such bets to start having an intuition something is going on.
Even if everything else is ok, would the (say) 585 such loosing bet in the history of last 10 years bets in all casinos constitute evidence of anything ?
Who is supposed to review these 585 bets or few Gbets ? Trustable ?

The actual RTP could be (say) 42%. Which individual has the IT, financial and time resources to get the mathematical evidence (a few million bets, say) that it's not the case ? And a (reasonable) RTP doesn't prove there is "chance", randomness.

Hidden algorithm... I don't see any algorithm at play in the first place. The programming of the games/slots is just totally obscure. It can be a infinite loop of following payouts (simplistic example of course)
0x 0x 5x 0x 0x 2x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 2x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 5x 0x 0x 2x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 0x 5x
or different arrangement of symbols. Which individual has the IT, financial and time resources to get the mathematical evidence (a few million bets, say) that it's not the case ?

Games are "stalled", or "throtteled" and minimum bets are very high (yes, 0.30€ is a lot because of the number of bets you'll need to make) for that very reason. No more than a few thousand bets per hour (IR= ~1'600bets/h; 1 month 24/7, and "maybe" only 200'000€ for a million bets, which is a low number of bets.) Not to even mention monthly limits casinos would enforce.

I haven't seen any RNG at play in any slot. Have anyone ?

FU Rigged casinos.

 

[timmy19733]

Obviously...we all know if you Bet higher...the % and the odds/features you may get completely change.....thinking otherwise would be ludicrous.


indeed, i'll agree with Harry if you bet Larger amount you'll notice your money going away faster, therefore....you feel like you are losing more frequently/faster ects.....for everything else, i'll say it's all in your mind.

Are you serious? Is there any proof of this?

 

[ktruo10]

It's funny how some people would keep on mentioning the word random. When there's a thing called rtp. That itself should clearly state that's it is programmed and controlled

 

[DANB9191]

It's funny how some people would keep on mentioning the word random. When there's a thing called rtp. That itself should clearly state that's it is programmed and controlled

I really do think gambling is fixed to a certain liking.. The government need their wedge in tax (Around 20-40% of what casinos make.. So I heard) but that's what I heard, I'm not saying they take that exact amount. And the caisnos obviously need/want their profit too Or they'd be outta business right ? Gotta be some kind of fixture to keep them up and running

But on the other hand, I think luck definitely plays a big part when you're getting big wins... You just have to be in the right place at the right time :nod: You can see that a lot of people on here win, some are big amounts too

We ain't behind the curtain, the commissions are obviously run by the government.. We just press "Spin" and hope for the best You get what you're given, you're "Risking" your own money That's all down to us as a player.. They don't call it a gamble for nothing.

If you have seen the film "Friday" with Ice Cube.. Listen to what his dad says..... You win some, you lose some, but you live, you live to fight another day

It's your own choice, very best of luck to you with your online gaming