Neteller's new and weird UKASH policy

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
Here is my situation. Recently I bought ukash vouchers in value of 1000 euro. Later I deposited those vouchers into my Neteller account.
Then I deposited that money into several online casinos. I lost at most of them and won only at one- about 700 euro. After the casino paid me 700 euro- my Neteller balance became 700. Now I tried to withdraw that money with my Neteller card. No success. Same day I tried to transfer 50 euro to my friend. Again no success. I get the message that the transfer is not possible. Then I contact Neteller.
It turns out they applied a new UKASH policy.

"Funds deposited using Ukash are available only for transfers to merchant sites or purchases using NET+. These funds cannot be withdrawn via ATM or transferred to another member."

Now I explain to them that I only tried to withdraw the money which was paid to me by the merchant (online casino) and not the money deposited by UKASH. The next explanation got me shocked:

"You can only withdraw the difference between your Ukash deposits and the winnings from the merchant."

What it means is that I will be able to withdraw some money from my Neteller only if my balance exceeds 1000 euro (total ukash deposits made into my Neteller account before). And 1000 euro are somehow blocked forever in my account until I spend it (buy some stuff online using Net+ card or ,in case of casinos- lose it).

Can it be possible that this kind of discriminating policy being applied by Neteller??? What should I do now to get my 700 euro?
 

incrediblestuff

SearchingForTheHolyGrail!
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Location
Mostly the Netherlands
Doesn't fit the description discriminating, but odd, and inconvenient since it was applied retroactively: i never heard of this, and did not get an update regarding changes...

However, i always assume any money deposited into Neteller is for a purchase of any kind.
If you did it to gift some friend, it is a bummer, but now you know to use maybe paypal, MB/Skrill or western union, or load up the needed amount into Neteller with another method.

Loading up 1000 seems to point to the plan to make various transactions, and as such you will still be able to play, if you win a "target" amount, you will be able to cashout, if you lose that won't make a difference.
If you break even you can cash out and redeposit.

The 50 for the friend can wait till you win, or like i said before, put in with another method or by using a different merchant:)

No big deal in the end, but indeed inconvenient, and slightly disappointing from Neteller to not make their customers aware of such changes.
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
hi , they have made it clear about ukash deposits i remember reading it some time ago didnt think anymore about it, also theres the 3% fee they charge on all deposits made via this , maybe its something to do with fraud money laundering , any case not sure how you can get those funds , its suggesting you to win another 1300 quid so you can then withdrawal the 1k youve put in there , maybe its time to move to another e wallet )
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
hi , they have made it clear about ukash deposits i remember reading it some time ago didnt think anymore about it, also theres the 3% fee they charge on all deposits made via this , maybe its something to do with fraud money laundering , any case not sure how you can get those funds , its suggesting you to win another 1300 quid so you can then withdrawal the 1k youve put in there , maybe its time to move to another e wallet )

Isn't it strange that I need to risk my money again playing at the casinos in order to get my money from Neteller? I did not steal those 1000 ukash vouchers- I bought them for cash, my personal cash. Now this cash is blocked at Neteller and is unaccessible for me. Certainly I will not use Neteller after this but can this kind of policy be considered legal?
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
Isn't it strange that I need to risk my money again playing at the casinos in order to get my money from Neteller? I did not steal those 1000 ukash vouchers- I bought them for cash, my personal cash. Now this cash is blocked at Neteller and is unaccessible for me. Certainly I will not use Neteller after this but can this kind of policy be considered legal?

yer it is strange but you can purchase something with that 700 euros doesnt matter what it is, can you pay a bill or something with it ? ? then your not spending it back into casinos , i would just move from neteller to another account if this is one of the normals then its bye bye neteller im afraid , i dont use ukash , but if you want a way around it deposit direct into the casino & play at least that way any funds if you win they cant touch meaning withdrawal via atm if you get me .

to be honest neteller are getting very greedy of late , fees going up they charge for euros to pounds etc etc
 
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incrediblestuff

SearchingForTheHolyGrail!
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Location
Mostly the Netherlands
hi , they have made it clear about ukash deposits i remember reading it some time ago didn't think anymore about it, also theres the 3% fee they charge on all deposits made via this , maybe its something to do with fraud money laundering , any case not sure how you can get those funds , its suggesting you to win another 1300 quid so you can then withdrawal the 1k you've put in there , maybe its time to move to another e wallet )

It's possible that i missed it, but i do not recall it anyway.
The fee was well known, and indeed makes Ukash and Paysafe the least attractive option i.m.o, but you pay for the privacy: it's the most incognito option in the package to load funds into your account.

I agree it probably has to do with money laundering, and i also think it should in the end not be a problem for hakapuku because as you and me both pointed out the money can be used for its most likely intended purpose.

Maybe you could also redeposit in a Casino you withdrew from, and ask them to pay out to another method?
If your willing to pay the fee, they might do you this service.
Just a thought.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The real problem is that this can accumulate endlessly, and in time a player could have something like £100,000 worth of UKash deposits over many years of funding and using Neteller, and then having to always manage to get their balance above £100,000K in order to ever be able to move that money out of the online gambling arena.

The problem seems to be that the money is never deemed to be spent if lost at a merchant casino, as in this case most of it was lost, except for at one casino where 700 was withdrawn, yet the losses in the other casinos have not been deemed as "spent", thus it's the whole 700 that is locked, not just the part of the Ukash deposit that originally went into the casino.

I therefore wonder if even spending 1000 on the Net+ card, and then winning back 1000 from a casino, will remove the block on the 1000 from being withdrawn.


This is NOT how anti money laundering rules are supposed to be applied. It should be a case of doing the KYC, and then clearing the customer and their money to be used freely.

The Net+ card seems to be very restricted in possible uses, and it appears that it cannot be used to "pay bills" like a regular debit or credit card, but only to make purchases at retailers, where it appears to act like a "gift" card rather than a traditional card that is linked to a bank account. It is normal for "gift" cards to have no means of conversion of the value back to cash.

However, if used smartly, it should be possible to get at the cash value trapped in Neteller by using the Net+ card whenever possible in preference to a regular credit or debit card, making purchases of items that are "perishable", such as food or cinema tickets. This means spending trapped cash, but at the same time NOT spending the equivalent amount of cash in the bank, which is then what can be drawn upon in order to transfer 50 to a friend, or pay a bill.

It's possible that casinos will already have, or are about to introduce, similar inconvenient UKash rules, however they could not justify saying such money is forever trapped in the casino. Instead, it's likely to be a denial of certain means of withdrawal, such as eWallet, and insisting the withdrawal is received via Cheque, or bank transfer.

I have always funded my Neteller with a credit or debit card, and have had no problem withdrawing any winnings to my bank. (I don't simply deposit and then withdraw to the bank, the money is circulated a few times through the casinos).
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
VWM....you're making stuff up again.

Besides typing multiple paragraphs restating what's already been said, you are incorrect about the Net+ Card.

The card can be used anywhere that MasterCard is accepted....online AND offline....to buy stuff, pay bills, dine out, etc etc. I've paid several bills with it as well as car repairs and even holiday expenses and bookings.

In other words....it is EXACTLY the same as a bank debit card. The only exception is gambling transactions which are blocked (provided the operator is using the gambling code)
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
The card can be used anywhere that MasterCard is accepted....online AND offline....to buy stuff, pay bills, dine out, etc etc. I've paid several bills with it as well as car repairs and even holiday expenses and bookings.

Yeah, you are right. I am also using my Neteller card on a regular basis when paying for groceries in my local store, booking hotels, flights or whatever.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
VWM....you're making stuff up again.

Besides typing multiple paragraphs restating what's already been said, you are incorrect about the Net+ Card.

The card can be used anywhere that MasterCard is accepted....online AND offline....to buy stuff, pay bills, dine out, etc etc. I've paid several bills with it as well as car repairs and even holiday expenses and bookings.

In other words....it is EXACTLY the same as a bank debit card. The only exception is gambling transactions which are blocked (provided the operator is using the gambling code)

Have you checked before you spout?

I am not referring to buying groceries at the store etc, I mean PAYING BILLS, such as paying off your credit card at the end of the month, paying your quarterly energy bill, etc. This does NOT necessarily work in all instances, as it is not a "debit card", nor is it a true "credit card". It's a pre paid card bearing the MasterCard logo, and it's workings are closer to those of a gift card, but one with a very wide spread of retailers that accept it.

A true debit card can be used to deposit money into a savings account, invest in an ISA, pay off a monthly credit card bill, etc.

If the Net+ card could be used for such things, there would be no point whatsoever in Neteller imposing these restrictions on UKash as it would have no effect against "money laundering" the Ukash deposits into an account bearing a different name. I can easily pay my niece's housing rent online with my credit card, and this means I have moved money out of my name. If this could be done with a Net+ card, it would be blindingly easy to launder money through Neteller using the UKash system.

Logic tells us that if Neteller are blocking the movement of a UKash deposit to anywhere other than a merchant or retailer, they will have made sure that the Net+ card could not be used to circumvent this restriction simply by using it online to pay someone else's bills, or invest in another bank (savings) account.

The terms and conditions for Barclaycard specifically exclude the use of the Net+ card for paying off the bill, as it restricts payments to a debit card that is connected to a UK bank account, and the Net+ card works via an IOM bank. If it does work, it's probably an oversight by Barclays.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Have you checked before you spout?

I am not referring to buying groceries at the store etc, I mean PAYING BILLS, such as paying off your credit card at the end of the month, paying your quarterly energy bill, etc. This does NOT necessarily work in all instances, as it is not a "debit card", nor is it a true "credit card". It's a pre paid card bearing the MasterCard logo, and it's workings are closer to those of a gift card, but one with a very wide spread of retailers that accept it.

A true debit card can be used to deposit money into a savings account, invest in an ISA, pay off a monthly credit card bill, etc.

If the Net+ card could be used for such things, there would be no point whatsoever in Neteller imposing these restrictions on UKash as it would have no effect against "money laundering" the Ukash deposits into an account bearing a different name. I can easily pay my niece's housing rent online with my credit card, and this means I have moved money out of my name. If this could be done with a Net+ card, it would be blindingly easy to launder money through Neteller using the UKash system.

Logic tells us that if Neteller are blocking the movement of a UKash deposit to anywhere other than a merchant or retailer, they will have made sure that the Net+ card could not be used to circumvent this restriction simply by using it online to pay someone else's bills, or invest in another bank (savings) account.

The terms and conditions for Barclaycard specifically exclude the use of the Net+ card for paying off the bill, as it restricts payments to a debit card that is connected to a UK bank account, and the Net+ card works via an IOM bank. If it does work, it's probably an oversight by Barclays.

Ummm....sorry but you're still wrong. Multiple paragraphs about specific exceptions doesn't change the fact that you said the Net+ card CAN NOT be used to "pay bills" (it can) or that it is the same as a "gift card" (it is not) and that you cannot get "value converted to cash" (you can). You can withdraw CASH at an ATM, pay any bill you like (in my experience) that accepts MC as a payment method and use it OFFLINE and ONLINE to do pretty much anything that you can do with a normal MC.

You can quote logic...but it is no substitute for FACTS. Unless, of course, you KNOW that Neteller have restricted the card so you cannot pay someone else's bill (which you DON'T because they DON'T because I've done it).

Red alert...you don't know everything. :eek:
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
I think the money will be forfeited then
I would be curious to see the legal basis for this. Where is the new UKASH policy documented? There is no mention of any restrictions on the use of UKASH deposits in Outdated URL (Invalid) , which claims to contain "Everything you need to know about Ukash".
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Ummm....sorry but you're still wrong. Multiple paragraphs about specific exceptions doesn't change the fact that you said the Net+ card CAN NOT be used to "pay bills" (it can) or that it is the same as a "gift card" (it is not) and that you cannot get "value converted to cash" (you can). You can withdraw CASH at an ATM, pay any bill you like (in my experience) that accepts MC as a payment method and use it OFFLINE and ONLINE to do pretty much anything that you can do with a normal MC.

You can quote logic...but it is no substitute for FACTS. Unless, of course, you KNOW that Neteller have restricted the card so you cannot pay someone else's bill (which you DON'T because they DON'T because I've done it).

Red alert...you don't know everything. :eek:

Not in this case for this user, which is why he has the problem in the first place. Neteller have BLOCKED this function, which is why the OP is trying to find another way to get the money out. It also proves that Neteller can and does block certain transaction types at the level of individual accounts, as well as an across the board block on gambling transactions.

I didn't say that Neteller have blocked the payment of someone else's bill, I said that by logic they SHOULD, else it would be so easy to launder money deposited via UKash, the prevention of which is the whole point of the policy that has caused the OP such grief.

It's actually a viable way out for the OP. Agree to settle an account on behalf of a friend and family who would otherwise use their debit card, and have them give him the cash. If this works, then Neteller have dropped the ball somewhat, bolting the door, but leaving the window wide open.

It's likely that if UKash users start to deal with their trapped money in this way, Neteller may have a rethink about even the restricted range of transactions possible with the Net+ card based on funds that originated from UKash.

I have a Net+ card for emergency access to the funds in my Neteller should my conventional cards let me down. I have not used it yet, and one of the reasons is that I know that it can't be used to settle accounts, but merely to shop. I CAN however freely settle these accounts with my conventional debit cards provided the funds are available in the bank. It would be pretty damn convenient if I could use Net+ to settle a credit card bill, as it would save me the step of requesting a withdrawal to my bank and a 7 day wait till it arrives. I would even get Neteller reward points!
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Not in this case for this user, which is why he has the problem in the first place. Neteller have BLOCKED this function, which is why the OP is trying to find another way to get the money out. It also proves that Neteller can and does block certain transaction types at the level of individual accounts, as well as an across the board block on gambling transactions.

I didn't say that Neteller have blocked the payment of someone else's bill, I said that by logic they SHOULD, else it would be so easy to launder money deposited via UKash, the prevention of which is the whole point of the policy that has caused the OP such grief.

It's actually a viable way out for the OP. Agree to settle an account on behalf of a friend and family who would otherwise use their debit card, and have them give him the cash. If this works, then Neteller have dropped the ball somewhat, bolting the door, but leaving the window wide open.

It's likely that if UKash users start to deal with their trapped money in this way, Neteller may have a rethink about even the restricted range of transactions possible with the Net+ card based on funds that originated from UKash.

I have a Net+ card for emergency access to the funds in my Neteller should my conventional cards let me down. I have not used it yet, and one of the reasons is that I know that it can't be used to settle accounts, but merely to shop. I CAN however freely settle these accounts with my conventional debit cards provided the funds are available in the bank. It would be pretty damn convenient if I could use Net+ to settle a credit card bill, as it would save me the step of requesting a withdrawal to my bank and a 7 day wait till it arrives. I would even get Neteller reward points!

Sorry, but attempting to backtrack by saying you only referred to "this case" doesn't cut the mustard. You made general remarks/assumptions about the Net+ card and got it wrong.

You assumed you KNEW it all, and it turns out you didn't. Simple.

A simple "Oh OK, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info" or "Interesting. Good point" would have sufficed....but I know you are unable to acknowledge errors nor give anyone else credit for providing information.
 

redsfan

Experienced Member
webby
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Location
bishop auckland
Rather than start a new thread, I will continue on here.

I deposited £200 into my account using UKASH in Neteller. Played with Ladbrokes and WD £400
I tried to pay £390 for something online and was told no can Do, UKASH. OK, silly rule but ok.

Deposited £400 to Ladbrokes and Lost

So I did a Fast Bank Transfer into my account and they have said that the money is tied up as I have used UKASH to deposit. This is all money from my bank account tied to neteller.
 
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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Rather than start a new thread, I will continue on here.

I deposited £200 into my account using UKASH in Neteller. Played with Ladbrokes and WD £400
I tried to pay £390 for something online and was told no can Do, UKASH. OK, silly rule but ok.

Deposited £400 to Ladbrokes and Lost

So I did a Fast Bank Transfer into my account and they have said that the money is tied up as I have used UKASH to deposit. This is all money from my bank account tied to neteller.

It would be best to avoid UKash completely. It's also worth making sure Neteller are following their own policy as it would seem that just one use of Ukash can mess with your account long after the original UKash deposit has been spent.
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
It would be best to avoid UKash completely. It's also worth making sure Neteller are following their own policy as it would seem that just one use of Ukash can mess with your account long after the original UKash deposit has been spent.

neteller is going down hill period , nothing but problems with them for the last few months ,new year any more problems for me im leaving them (
 

bruinsdude

Senior Member
PABaccred
mm1
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Location
Canada
99% of my deposits this year were via Ukash. Never an issue, but I didn't route the transaction through an e-wallet, I just used the Ukash option directly, and input the voucher number into the casino.
I have now discovered and started using Eco, so I think my Ukash days are done, but I don't understand why you would need to go through an e-wallet rather than just deposit the ukash right into the casino?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Casinos can be an arse if you use more than one deposit method, and were a player who normally deposits via Neteller to use Ukash, it's the casino that might give them the runaround when it comes to the next withdrawal. This is a strong motivation to route the different methods through Neteller so that there are no problems when it comes to requesting a casino withdrawal back to Neteller. Of course, this means that the problems can occur in the eWallet instead, so a runaround isn't avoided.

Casinos also seem to be trying to distance themselves from Neteller. It started years ago when a few casinos banned Neteller deposits from receiving any promotions, or placed near impossible restrictions and WR on promotions for no reason other than the deposit having originated from Neteller. The trend has spread, and has now become a near epidemic with a few casinos now even removing Neteller altogether as a deposit option.

Neteller seem to have a head-in-the sand attitude to this, so it's the users who are bearing the brunt. If your favoured casinos don't allow you to use Neteller, and you still want to play there, then Neteller will lose a customer. More likely is that Neteller will see a steady fall in turnover as players who still prefer to use them find they need to get a secondary method for those places that "hate players using Neteller". As the anti-Neteller policies spread, the secondary method gets used more, and may eventually become the primary method. If Neteller don't tackle the problems, they will start to shrink as customers either desert the service, or are forced out by the policies of their favoured casinos.

Ukash is one of those "accidents waiting to happen" because it can be bought in a small shop with nothing more than a quick flash of your ID, and sometimes not even that. This means that the only person who is checking the legitimacy of the cash used to buy a UKash code is a shop clerk, possibly a trainee or lowly paid worker who has never been trained in anti money laundering procedures. On top of this, the code system itself is open to fraud as use of the code at point of purchase does not verify that the user is the legitimate owner. It also seems that there can be a degree of lag between a code being used, and it being marked as used on Ukash servers. This further opens up the possibility of multiple use fraud, and all but one merchant is going to lose out when it comes to UKash settling the transactions.
 

redsfan

Experienced Member
webby
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Location
bishop auckland
99% of my deposits this year were via Ukash. Never an issue, but I didn't route the transaction through an e-wallet, I just used the Ukash option directly, and input the voucher number into the casino.
I have now discovered and started using Eco, so I think my Ukash days are done, but I don't understand why you would need to go through an e-wallet rather than just deposit the ukash right into the casino?

One of the casinos Im playing at doesnt take UKASH.
 

miso

Meister Member
MM
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Location
Ireland
Funny how you resurrected this thread today, just when I was about to run into trouble.

Bought two vouchers an hour ago, both got rejected. One at Royal Vegas, other one at Fly Casino. Went to my Ukash account, says
tools are not available now, so can't even check what happened. Anyway, sent the codes to support, they're of course closed since 7pm,
hopefully they send me new codes tomorrow.

And all this because the shop that sells Ukash is shorter drive than the one for Paysafecards. Stupid, lazy and stupid. This is the last time I bought
their piece of crap vouchers.
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
Thats abit of a kick in the teeth not being able to use,

What I do understand is why bother in the first place? Am I missing something? Or am I just used to using card to much

Funny how you resurrected this thread today, just when I was about to run into trouble.

Bought two vouchers an hour ago, both got rejected. One at Royal Vegas, other one at Fly Casino. Went to my Ukash account, says
tools are not available now, so can't even check what happened. Anyway, sent the codes to support, they're of course closed since 7pm,
hopefully they send me new codes tomorrow.

And all this because the shop that sells Ukash is shorter drive than the one for Paysafecards. Stupid, lazy and stupid. This is the last time I bought
their piece of crap vouchers.
 
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