NETELLER: resolved

[caruso]

This is beyond comprehension. I'm writing in what amounts to a state of disorientation.

Neteller have reduced the balance of my account by $500.

Yesterday, I drew off a cheque. My balance stood at $XX,XXX at the time. I received the usual message "you have $XX,XXX available for withdrawal"; I withdrew. I left myself a small residual balance.

Later that day I received an Email, saying that the request had been denied, because the system "did not read your debits and credits correctly, therefore putting your balance, off.". I had to wait a bit and withdraw again. No problem.

This morning I checked again. Balance back to pre-withdrawal amount. No problem.

Later, this evening, I logged in again.

MY BALANCE HAD BEEN REDUCED BY $500 at some point during a period of nine hours.

Conversations with Neteller - CS staff - have been fruitless up to this point. The balance totals that they have read off to me have been my balance minus $500. "You haven't had that amount in your account since...the last credit to your account put your balance at..." - everything minus $500. According to Neteller, there is no error. Yet my balance remains $500 short.

I would not lie about this. Anyone who knows me knows that I would not invent such an accusation. I do not need $500 that badly that I would waste time and energy on such a pointless fabrication. However, I have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of proving this, either - how can I? All I have is my account balance. Neteller does NOT list each balance after each transaction, as a bank statement does - they only list ONE figure. I would never have contemplated taking a screenshot. I would never have considered it necessary. All I can rely on is what I know to be correct, and the integrity of Neteller.

I cannot believe this has happened and I have absolutely no idea what to do, because I have absolutely no way of proving this. I have no screenshots, no evidence - nothing. Yet I've been shorted $500, there is no mistake about this. I do not lie, nor would I go to these lengths for $500. I have had a Neteller account for three years now, I've done many thousands of transactions and I am no amateur. I keep tight reins on my account at all times and always know eaxctly (within $100 at least) how much should be in there. This matter is so stark because the original amount was just above a certain multiple of $10,000 - it is now below it, ie. the initial figure has been reduced.

If you have a Neteller account, I have only one word of advice:

SCREENSHOT.

Every day, after every transaction. This is beyond belief.

If anyone can offer any advice I'd really appreciate it. I feel literally kicked in the stomach at this moment.

 

[KasinoKing]

I have to say I have long felt Neteller's whole banking system is very 'amateur', especially in the area you describe - the 'balance sheet'.
In the past, when I thought my balance was wrong, the only way to check it was work back from a known figure some months before, and add & subtract all the transactions since! This is appallingly poor when you think about it, and so I hope they modernize their service soon.

In the meantime I sincerely hope they get this matter sorted out & you get your money back ASAP.

The only advice is don't give up - keep on at them.

 

[sw2003]

If all your incoming-outgoing amount < your current total balance, then you have that fact to show to NETeller! That is if you have all your transactions available since day one!

Actually if at some point in time without that $500, it would put your balance in the negative, then you have a case because your NETeller account can never be in the negative. NETeller won't let you take out more than you have in the account.

 

[Stanford]

This is beyond comprehension. I'm writing in what amounts to a state of disorientation.

Neteller have reduced the balance of my account by $500...

If you have a Neteller account, I have only one word of advice:

SCREENSHOT.

Every day, after every transaction. This is beyond belief.

If anyone can offer any advice I'd really appreciate it. I feel literally kicked in the stomach at this moment.

The only thing you can do is print off your activity for the entire 3 year period.

Neteller should be able to examine all $500 transactions but if it is a problem of the system not "adding" you have to print it all off. If it has "dropped" a transaction, you won't find it. If it has "added" a transaction, you will be looking for descriptions unfamiliar.

It sometimes declines a transaction that is still on your list. Because it is declined, it doesn't figure into your balance. I would look at recent activity for declined transactions. I once thought a tranfer had been made when it was declined.

For others, I print my activity ever so often. I also keep a separate list of all my transactions. I reconcile this just like a bank statement. If you print out a statement every so often, you only have to prove your balance since the last statement.

Good luck.

Stanford.

 

[caruso]

Actually I just had that idea about checking my total history, manually adding & subtracting the lot myself - thanks for the suggestion. Yes, all transactions from Day One are there. I can't believe it'll come to this. In all, having copied it all to Word I have 55 pages of data. It'll take me an eternity to do this manually, but at least I have the proof.

The fact remains that my balance has been adjusted down by $500 since this morning.

 

[caruso]

They've just sent me a copy of recent transactions. I remember one key one which sent my balance over a particular mark - it's down by $500. Everything is $500 out.

Basically, they're trying to rob me. Dumb gamblers, like they'd ever realize. Shave a few extra dollars, they'll never know.

This is mind-blowing.

 

[thesmiler]

Actually I just had that idea about checking my total history, manually adding & subtracting the lot myself - thanks for the suggestion. Yes, all transactions from Day One are there. I can't believe it'll come to this. In all, having copied it all to Word I have 55 pages of data. It'll take me an eternity to do this manually, but at least I have the proof.

If you have excel, you can copy the contents of the history page with Copy&Paste to Excel, and you it will send it to different columns, so you just have to add the left column and substract it from the sum of the right column after you took out cancelled transactions. Will do this now, lets see if I come to the correct amount.

 

[thesmiler]

Will do this now, lets see if I come to the correct amount.

Yes, if I delete the cancelled and declined transactions, the sum is exactly the same as calculated by Neteller.

 

[jerseyguy11]

caruso, audit your entire history. yes its a pain, but you'll figure out just exactly where the $500 went etc. Next, if neteller doesnt fix it immediately, transfer all your money out of there to your bank. Then, depending on how you feel about this, inform your bank that $500 is owed to you by neteller and they refuse to pay. File a complaint regarding this $500 at your bank and ask them to dispute one of your transfers to neteller (not to exceed $500 obviously). If your right, the bank will chargeback the $500.

Regardless of whether its $5 or $50,000 missing. Its the principle and neteller should not ignore your serious inquiries/acusations regarding their error.

Neteller is pretty reputable so I think if you audit your account and keep after them, it will be fixed.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I aren't sure whether they are FSA registered or not (Moneybookers are) but you could always go down that route seeing as they are registered on the stock exchange over here (UK) - that is assuming your account is out when you've totalled up your history.

 

[jetset]

Once you have checked your transactions to ensure you are correct in this, I would suggest you enlist Bryan's aid - he has good comms with the Neteller management and he may well be able to get this reviewed at a higher level.

As Jersey Guy says, Neteller do not have a reputation for crookery.

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi Caruso,

Please forward me your Neteller account# and user email address and I'll have the UK branch take a look at this.

 

[jetset]

BTW, I understand Neteller in the IOM is compliant with the financial services board controls.

 

[caruso]

Thank you very much, Bryan - I got your email and passed all details on.

My concern here is: what if my account DOES total up? The only evidence I have is 1) what I know is my correct balance and 2) the evidence of my own eyes. What if credits totalling $500 have somehow gone astray from earlier parts of my account, putting my balance off?

There are two key areas - one is the fact that my balance literally auto-reduced by the given amount at some point yesterday between my first and second logon, and secondly, after I checked the small list of transactions + balances that a CS rep sent me, a certain "key amount" I recall specifically, about five transactions previously, was down that exact amount.

And thirdly, when I went to make my withdrawal, my total CORRECT balance was presented to me as "you have $XX,XXX available for withdrawal", and this amount WAS correct when they put it back in my account. It changed over the course of the day. The amount remaining in my account, after the initial withdrawal, was also correct, ie. the sum of withdrawal plus remaining balance was the correct total.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions, which I've taken note of (I didn't realise NT were listed on the London exchange). I'll be posting my OWN suggestions subsequently re. account security.

 

[caruso]

Another thing which has changed here: look at the blue lettering in "account info" and "quick links"; that lettering used to be clear as a bell. It has now been reduced in size and is fuzzy to almost illegibility. I saw this for the first time yesterday upon my second login - when my balance was changed. I can barely read my account balance, nor any of those links - I assume this is the same for everyone?

And let's remember that we recently suffered that period of non-posted deposits to casinos, during that upgrade.

Something is wrong.

I can also say that, whatever the resolution here may be, once all remaining due casino credits have been posted I will be withdrawing all my remaining funds and closing my Neteller account. This has obvious implications for my patronization of dollar-based casinos, but I have no choice - this is now far too high-risk an endeavor to be realistically maintained from my point of view. This also has implications for Neteller - I have been a VERY VERY profitable customer.

 

[Casinomeister]

Another thing which has changed here: look at the blue lettering in "account info" and "quick links"; that lettering used to be clear as a bell. It has now been reduced in size and is fuzzy to almost illegibility. I saw this for the first time yesterday upon my second login - when my balance was changed. I can barely read my account balance, nor any of those links - I assume this is the same for everyone?....

This has always been the case for me. If you are using IE, you need to go to your toolbar, click "view" "text size>" then select "Medium". This will clear up this problem.

 

[toofast4u]

Thank you very much, Bryan - I got your email and passed all details on.

My concern here is: what if my account DOES total up? The only evidence I have is 1) what I know is my correct balance and 2) the evidence of my own eyes. What if credits totalling $500 have somehow gone astray from earlier parts of my account, putting my balance off?

There are two key areas - one is the fact that my balance literally auto-reduced by the given amount at some point yesterday between my first and second logon, and secondly, after I checked the small list of transactions + balances that a CS rep sent me, a certain "key amount" I recall specifically, about five transactions previously, was down that exact amount.

And thirdly, when I went to make my withdrawal, my total CORRECT balance was presented to me as "you have $XX,XXX available for withdrawal", and this amount WAS correct when they put it back in my account. It changed over the course of the day. The amount remaining in my account, after the initial withdrawal, was also correct, ie. the sum of withdrawal plus remaining balance was the correct total.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions, which I've taken note of (I didn't realise NT were listed on the London exchange). I'll be posting my OWN suggestions subsequently re. account security.

you should also be able to prove where that amount$$ credit came from, I.E. your bank account, casino, etc. Maybe its a casino trying to re-claim $500 of your win??

 

[Petunia]

** Just wondering if you went to the direct .com website, or if you logged in from somewhere else. There has been a HUGE thing around lately about funds being stolen by 'fake' urls! Just a thought!It sounds like the first attempt for you to 'withdraw again' is a bit off! **

 

[caruso]

Again, thanks to Bryan for voluntarily dumping himself right in the middle of the shit once again.

Small clarification: there is no $500 actually visibly missing, ie. listed as a debit I never made. The balance is simply under by that amount. Yesterday morning - correct; yesterday evening - out. There was no account activity in the intervening period. It amounts to a kind of "ghost" withdrawal.

All I can conjecture is that somehow $500 worth of credits have vanished via IT glitch / been removed manually from some point in my total account history. I received the full "bank statement" version and the amounts are claimed to tally. I haven't manually done the job myself on the full history copy I took yesterday, but I see no reason to believe that I'd come to a different figure - clearly, the figure they claim (under by $500) is automatically calculated. Neither do I have manual records of all my transactions, but it wouldn't prove anything if I did. And of course, I never thought I'd need manual records.

Somehow, $500 has gone astray.

If there were some way of accessing the private pages of my initial withdrawal attempt and pre-withdrawal balance (tantamount to a screenshot), I could prove beyond question that my balance was correctly listed with the full amount, both prior to withdrawal and in the preceding day or two when my account was dormant. Bereft of a screenshot, I cannot prove this. Is this in any way possible? These are password-protected pages, and my history file simply brings up the login page. Is that information stored on my computer in any sort of accessible format? I know NT are currently looking into the matter, but if I could access those pages it wouldn't half sort out the problem in a flash, or at least prove what I'm saying.

It sounds like the first attempt for you to 'withdraw again' is a bit off! **

Yes, this was all triggered by a withdrawal request.

 

[lanidar]

Caruso...as you may know Colin is a friend of mine. I told him of your problem.
I JUST received this email from him:
( Colins email address is: Colin@NETeller.com )

Wow. On it. I need his account details so I know who this is.

Tell him to email me.

We dont shave $$. Man, these guys. If there is an error, I will find it.

Regards,

__________________________________

Colin Francis
VP of Security, Compliance and
Customer Service, North America

Toll Free: 1.888.258.5859 ext. 3600

Fax: 888.678.2128

 

[thesmiler]

caruso --- A bit of a bad question:
Are you sure that the previous balance was right?!? Perhaps this one was wrong and it wouldn't have added up?

Couldn't it be the problem that somehow the balance was calculated $500 up before and some internal check changed this and triggered it back to the "correct" amount.

This still wouldn't be too great as they should always show you the correct balance...

 

[caruso]

Lanidar - thanks for the offer. I had you in mind anyway, yesterday - and a mutual friend also pointed you out as having a useful contact. Fortunately, there'll be no need of further intervention.

Smiler - that occured to me also, that my balance could have been being "adjusted" down from an incorrect level when I came to make a withdrawal. This wouldn't be possible. I have a clear idea at all times of where my balance should be. If it were $500 too high, I would know.

After a phone conversation with the Chief Financial Officer - an excellent fellow - this was put to bed swiftly and amicably. He wasn't so much concerned about the money as that a unique error was being reported by a long standing customer who clearly wasn't one of the fraudsters they encounter on a regular basis. They're going to investigate as thoroughly as possible and hopefully find what could have caused the "ghost" reduction in my balance between midday and 9 pm GMT yesterday. Additionally - and importantly from my end - he immediately credited my account with the disputed $500. Client satisfaction is clearly a high priority here.

I'd like to thank the Neteller CFO for his professionalism, efficiency and extreme courtesy in the handling this matter, and Bryan for escalating the matter to the top of the chain so quickly this morning.

Bryan - feel free to mark this "resolved".

Thanks all round!

 

[Macgyver]

Out of simple and mere curiousity, caruso, are you still going to abdicate using NETeller or have you changed your mind about keeping your money with them?

 

[lanidar]

CARUSO...
I JUST received this reply from Colin:

John.

We have the CFO involved as well as his top guy who are going through the entire transaction history. If Caruso is a friend, maybe mention how fast this was elevated. Bryan Bailey also emailed Executives in the UK who immediately emailed myself to help sort.

We are all over this. It is too bad he thinks we would intentionally do this.

Cheers John. Have a great weekend.

__________________________________

Colin Francis
VP of Security, Compliance and
Customer Service, North America

Toll Free: 1.888.258.5859 ext. 3600

Fax: 888.678.2128

 

[spearmaster]

There's no doubt in my mind that Neteller are 100% honest - but they are prone to stupid mistakes, which I guess are inevitable for any fast-growing company depending on automated scripts to do all the work.

Just how old is your account, Caruso? I ask because I have in the past been subjected to bugs which only affected older accounts... and my account dates back to when they were using card readers for security.

Colin, in my experience, reacts pretty quickly... LOL... his title is a bit misleading though so I tend to not copy him until support messes it up. He was Head of Security last I knew... now look at his title!

VP of Security, Compliance and
Customer Service, North America