Neteller Handing Over Customer List?

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
I see in a number of places that people now think that Neteller is a foreign account for purposes of filing treasury form TD F 90-22.1. That is one issue.

But another issue is whether Neteller is handing over customer list and activity automatically to DOJ. Do we know for sure how compromised the player's private information is? I know that Neteller is cooperating - but does that mean they are turning over all customer information? Or maybe just for those with frozen funds?

Does anyone have a contact? Seems like if they are disclosing information they would not have a problem telling us that.

Stanford.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
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Hell on Earth
In cooperating with the DoJ Neteller has released all information requested by the DoJ (That is full cooperation according the the DoJ and the DoJ has said that Neteller was fully cooperating).

We don't know for sure what information the DoJ requested, because no one is talking. But I think it is safe to assume that the DoJ requested ALL information on residents of America that received any funds transfers from Neteller.

This means everything that Neteller knew, the DoJ now Knows.

Neteller also has a
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Team currently going through all their records. I would assume they have the Forensic Accounting Team there to make sure the DoJ 'requests' for information are fully complied with.
 

footdr

Banned User: PITA violations of the Forum Rules
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AGREEMENT WHEN WE SIGNED UP SAID COMPLETE PRIVACY

But I went back and read the term and conditions and it says they will release account information when requested by law enforcement or under subpeona, something like that.

I wonder if it is all accounts or only those that have balances.

I closed my account before the doj confiscated the funds.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
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Sep 12, 2004
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Up$hitCreek
From what I remember, the DoJ also subpoenaed major international banks (who apparently rolled over) and also, they've got all these payment processors they've arrested along with whatever info they had .... Too bad nobody tells us nuttin' about just what the DoJ has and wants (if anything) in the way of specific info on players.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
From what I remember, the DoJ also subpoenaed major international banks (who apparently rolled over) and also, they've got all these payment processors they've arrested along with whatever info they had .... Too bad nobody tells us nuttin' about just what the DoJ has and wants (if anything) in the way of specific info on players.

I would assume the worst, and hope it's not so bad.

While the DoJ may have lots of info, as soon as they start acting on it we will find out what they have.
In order to prove net profit from gambling they need more than the Neteller records, they need to know what went in and out of casinos by other routes to fully assess whether players made a gambling profit.
The most likely use for this information is blackmail against foreign firms who seek to continue to assist US players and casino operators in transferring gambling funds. No firm knows what the DoJ may, or may not have, so they may not take the risk.
When the US activity is reduced enough, everybody still offering services will jump ship as there would no longer be enough profit to outweigh the risks - the US market will then be stone dead, and the DoJ will have scored an historic victory against the internet "Mafia".
After many failed attempts, the DoJ see total victory within their grasp, and they are going to go the extra mile to see it through, even if this means bending a few rules and stepping on toes of foreign companies and governments, not to mention the WTO and EU.
 

soflat

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
In order to prove net profit from gambling they need more than the Neteller records, they need to know what went in and out of casinos by other routes to fully assess whether players made a gambling profit.

I believe with the US tax code the burden would actually be on the player to prove losses. And the gross income can still be affected even if wins are completely offset by losses.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
Consider the following... if NETeller and banks and processors and sportsbooks like BetonUSA are all handing over all customer specifics .... and you add that to THIS, we may have more to worry about than taxes.

Nothing like feeling threatened by your own government.
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
I believe with the US tax code the burden would actually be on the player to prove losses. And the gross income can still be affected even if wins are completely offset by losses.

I think that is right. They could just add up all the inputs to your accounts - and let you prove up the rest.

But surely someone by this time has talked to Neteller to find out exactly what the DOJ has requested they turnover. Surely someone has a contact at Neteller.

Also, what is Navigant doing? I think they are just looking at the transfer - not the whole database. Certainly we should be able to get some clarification. There isn't a law against communicating with the customers.

Maybe Navigant is making sure US players are flagged so that Neteller doesn't use them anymore.

I don't recall PayPal turning over any customer list. I do think they paid a big fine of some sort.

Can no one reach a VP?

Stanford.

PS - Here is an article about the PayPal settlement. I suppose there is a big difference because there where no frozen funds as PayPal had already quite allowing gaming transactions. But they must have had some investigation of a "forensic" nature to arrive at the amount of profits to be turned over. And we never had any blowback back to the customer.

NT should be able to tell us if they are going to be much different than PayPal. Anyone know a VP? Have a contact? Anyone? Bueller?

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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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I believe with the US tax code the burden would actually be on the player to prove losses. And the gross income can still be affected even if wins are completely offset by losses.

I expect most players who hung on to the bitter end would have a paper loss due to "winnings" being paid by other methods - this could backfire, as the figures from Neteller might show less being withdrawn than might be the case, however, players could easily prove ALL their deposits if it came to an investigation.
In the long term, few will have a net win, and I would expect the revenue to pick and choose who to investigate, so the most likely targets would be the high rollers moving thousands of dollars per week/month etc.

If it came to it, US players could ask all casinos for a complete list of all deposits and withdrawals they have ever made, and it may be wise to be prepared in advance and request these now if not already done. it may come to nothing, but you can never trust the taxman once they get a whiff of untaxed income.
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
If it came to it, US players could ask all casinos for a complete list of all deposits and withdrawals they have ever made, and it may be wise to be prepared in advance and request these now if not already done. it may come to nothing, but you can never trust the taxman once they get a whiff of untaxed income.

I doubt you could get it. I notice you can only go back a few months on the banking screen of microgaming.

I have played at a multitude of casinos.

Stanford.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Location
United Kingdom
I doubt you could get it. I notice you can only go back a few months on the banking screen of microgaming.

I have played at a multitude of casinos.

Stanford.

I think MG casinos keep all data offline, although only the current and previous years are online.
Neteller keep everything, and will provide a copy (I complained once about not being able to download the transaction statement, and they said they could send the whole lot in a PDF document).
There may be some casinos that get rid of the data, perhaps where they have gone bust, been sold, or the player hasn't played for a long while.
One can only ask.
 

footdr

Banned User: PITA violations of the Forum Rules
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IRS AND FOREIGN BANK ACCOUNTS

I am uncertain why but the IRS regards foriegn bank account to include these ewallets, but you only have to report them, if they have ever had a balance of 10,000 at any given time, that is my interpretation of what I have read on tax sites.

You are required to report all foreign bank accounts.

Does anyone on the forum actually have a foreign bank account from a
REAL bank such as CITIBANK Europe or similar, if so, do you get a statement at the end of the year for income tax purposes. Just curious, as we know we do not get that from ewallets,

What would make paypay different from these ewallets aside for not allowing gambling transactions. ARE paypal accounts considered banking account? I do not think so. Why is IRS considering NETELLER a bank account, we didn't get interest and only used them for funds transfers. When using instant cash we were not even authorizing payment from bank to neteller but authorizing payment from bank via eft, which neteller processes for the merchant, just as EFT deposit, were actually processed for the casinos by citadel. You didn't even need a citadel account for those. You needed a citadel account only if you selected citadel as your deposit method
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
The reporting requirement is for foreign financial accounts, which would include Neteller in my opinion. Paypal is a US company, not foreign, hence no reporting requirement.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
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Location
MERS
I doubt you could get it. I notice you can only go back a few months on the banking screen of microgaming.

I have played at a multitude of casinos.

Stanford.
If your deposits were ultimately debited thru bank accounts or perhaps charged to a c.c. or even phone bill, you can at least total your deposits from bank statements,c.c. statements, and phone bills hopefully to substaniate whatever may be necessary. It will not help meet the absurd (impossible to know) income compliance of the tax law pursuant to gambling(Income compliance ultimately has the most affect on AGI and itemized deducts I assume) but at least you may be able to prove net winnings/losses. Compliance with the income portion of this law is basically impossible but I guess our IRS friends could disagree and make ones situation a living hell..........feel free to correct where I may be offbase.
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
The reporting requirement is for foreign financial accounts, which would include Neteller in my opinion. Paypal is a US company, not foreign, hence no reporting requirement.

The IRS arm that processes the disclosure form told me they were an English Company and needed to be disclosed as a foreign account. That isn't true. As you note, they are an American Company.

I did note where the IRS has issued John Doe Summones to Paypal for customer records. So I guess if they will do it with PayPal, they will be doing it with Neteller. But PayPal communicates about what is turned over and what is not. See story here:

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Note specifics required to get information:

"According to the order, the IRS can review the bank and credit card accounts of PayPal members, providing they meet three stipulations.

One is that a "reasonable basis" exists for believing a person may have failed to comply with IRS laws. A second requirement is the investigation relates to a particular person. Furthermore, the information being sought must not be easily obtained through other sources. "

That's a lot different than just handing over a customer list. I think Neteller should communicate with us officially and tell us what they are doing.

Stanford
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The IRS arm that processes the disclosure form told me they were an English Company and needed to be disclosed as a foreign account. That isn't true. As you note, they are an American Company.

I did note where the IRS has issued John Doe Summones to Paypal for customer records. So I guess if they will do it with PayPal, they will be doing it with Neteller. But PayPal communicates about what is turned over and what is not. See story here:

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Note specifics required to get information:

"According to the order, the IRS can review the bank and credit card accounts of PayPal members, providing they meet three stipulations.

One is that a "reasonable basis" exists for believing a person may have failed to comply with IRS laws. A second requirement is the investigation relates to a particular person. Furthermore, the information being sought must not be easily obtained through other sources. "

That's a lot different than just handing over a customer list. I think Neteller should communicate with us officially and tell us what they are doing.

Stanford

Perhaps it is because Neteller are so damn keen to co-operate that the DoJ/IRS have simply "requested" a customer list, even though they have no basis in law to REQUIRE this. If Neteller fall for this in their eagerness to please, then the IRS can go fishing, and will probably catch something worth pursuing that they had no way of catching without the initial "bait" of a customer list. Once they have this "reasonable basis", they can then REQUIRE production of pretty much anything they want.

Our Inland Revenue is nearly as bad, but the rich and their well paid accountants regularly run rings around them and pay far less tax than they shoud, whereas the average person probably pays too much.

On a trip back "home" to Mum, I found out our revenue had been "screwing her over" for the best part of a year. For this incompetence, they had to pay TWO YEARS of back overpayments due to an oddity of tax law I would have probably missed till I was 65, had I not been put to the inconvenience of going through the records rather than playing the latest JF promotion that weekend:)
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
Perhaps it is because Neteller are so damn keen to co-operate that the DoJ/IRS have simply "requested" a customer list, even though they have no basis in law to REQUIRE this. If Neteller fall for this in their eagerness to please, then the IRS can go fishing, and will probably catch something worth pursuing that they had no way of catching without the initial "bait" of a customer list. Once they have this "reasonable basis", they can then REQUIRE production of pretty much anything they want.

Perhaps. But I don't know why they would need that. Navigant should be finding out how much of the Neteller revenue derived from US players transfering funds to Internet Casinos. From that, there should be a fine.

The IRS fishing is something different. Neteller hasn't said anything about that. We should deduce that unless they are asked about specific individuals our records are secure. That's "should".

What I am suggesting is that US players make a concerted effort to ensure that is the case.

The other thing that is possible, is that those with frozen funds have had "their" remittance audited and to that extent personal information has been released. If that is the case, again - Just tell us. But I doubt that was necessary either.

I understand the mess. I don't understand the lack of communication.

Stanford.
 

w8n4win

Newbie member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Location
Right Here
The problem here is, if you had a win and did not file it on your Income Tax. Your tax return for that year is where you would have had the opportunity to file your losses against the gain. The IRS is not going to say "oh okay, in 2005 you won $5000 that you did not claim, but you lost $5000, so we're cool go ahead and go home". They are going to say you didn't claim the income. You have three years to amend a return, but I don't think you can do it once you are being audited. I am wondering if the safest thing to do would be to go back and amend returns.
 

Stanford

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Location
USA
The problem here is, if you had a win and did not file it on your Income Tax. Your tax return for that year is where you would have had the opportunity to file your losses against the gain. The IRS is not going to say "oh okay, in 2005 you won $5000 that you did not claim, but you lost $5000, so we're cool go ahead and go home". They are going to say you didn't claim the income. You have three years to amend a return, but I don't think you can do it once you are being audited. I am wondering if the safest thing to do would be to go back and amend returns.

Even worse, the system is set up for phantom income. The IRS doesn't like you to net your wins and losses. So they want all the income on Form 1040. And gambling losses as an itemized deduction on Schedule A. If you didn't have enough to itemize, you end up with phatom gains.

Even worse, they don't like to allow losses even on schedule A. They want a diary that gives detail of time and place and have even wanted table numbers for live play.

The potential for abuse of players is pretty large.

I wonder if going back and amending returns might not be the best bet also. Even returns from closed years because think about how the IRS measures income - gross wins. Include phantom income, and they can allege a large understatement.

We need to get Neteller to tell us what is going on. If this is like Paypal, all this speculation may be for nothing. And it should be.

Stanford.
 
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