1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dismiss Notice
  3. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

Nektan's new bonus will disadvantage some players

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by maxd, Jan 12, 2017.

    Jan 12, 2017
  1. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    ThePogg just published an excellent article detailing Nektan's new 25% DB / 4xBonusMaxWD offering: You must register/login in order to see the link..

    Long story short: receive a 25% deposit bonus and have your winnings capped at Deposit + 1 x Deposit (= Deposit + 4 x Bonus which is the terminology Nektan uses).

    So yes, no matter what you win all you can hope to get back is your 2 x deposit, the rest is forfeit.

    Given that it's an automatic deposit you'll probably have to be unusually vigilant to even notice that you've received the bonus, especially if you make a modest deposit to begin with.

    Enjoy!

    [noparse]:player-shoots-self-in-head:[/noparse]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  2. Jan 12, 2017
  3. RichyJ75

    RichyJ75 Silly Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Dogsbody and personal servant to my kids
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Phew, thankfully I don't play there anymore. Ages back I asked CS if I had a closed account with them as I had a few open accounts there, CS said no, I didn't have a closed account then proceeded to SE me on all accounts. Go figure that one out!! Didn't realise they were doing me a favour!
     
  4. Jan 12, 2017
  5. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Thanks! I am just about to remove them from my sites, this is the final straw. I am also going to report this to the UKGC. OK for cash but their bonus entrapment is getting worse, so no more. I was speaking to ThePOGG the other day about this, but I didn't know his dossier would be this bad!

    Just FYI:

    DO NOT TAKE ANY BONUSES AT, ChompCasino, SapphireRooms, SpinPrincess, JackpotStrike, PotsOfLuck which are their 5 main casinos.

    Even the 100% bonus is capped at 2XD w/d so avoid that.

    Right, off to remove them.....:mad:
     
  6. Jan 12, 2017
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    FTR: I'd initially misread, thought it was 1 x Deposit = Max WD. Actually it's 2 x Deposit = Max WD. Still shit for a 25% DB.
     
  8. Jan 12, 2017
  9. mimi26

    mimi26 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    nurse
    Location:
    uk

    I would like you to tell them they are being removed and reported just to see what their response is
     
  10. Jan 12, 2017
  11. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Well I'd better go back and amend the tirade of abuse I just added to my site....:( :eek:

    P.S. Done and gone for good, even at 2x D limit I still drew a bit of flak for promoting them, so auf wiedersehen Nektan!
     
  12. Jan 12, 2017
  13. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    How can 2 x whatever as a w/d cap be even remotely considered as gambling full stop :confused:

    I'd love to meet one of the dicks behind these rules.













    In a dark alley with a pair of pliers and a blow torch!
     
  14. Jan 12, 2017
  15. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    I would absolutely agree with much of the sentiment here, but I would also put this in context.

    This does NOT extend to ALL bonuses. The testing shows that where a 4x max win cap exists the problems occur with small percentage bonuses and small deposit sizes with mid percentage bonuses. It's not accurate to say that all bonuses are problematic in the nature the article highlighted.

    That said, I did not realise that the win cap was reduced to 2x for larger percentage bonuses. If there's sufficient interest I would be happy to test these under similar criteria to assess these bonuses.

    My issue, and what I'm trying to highlight in the article, is that a "bonus" is a positive thing. It should deliver some advantage. Where the terms are so restrictive as to make the player better off without the additional funds, even describing the funds as a "bonus" is factually inaccurate and I don't think many consumers would disagree with this being described as an "unethical marketing practice".

    Finally, I just wanted to voice personal agreement with the sentiment of some of the posters above - when you play a slots game, all of the fun is taken out of it when you can only win 1x your deposit. This isn't gambling, it just giving your money to the operator.

    TP
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Jan 12, 2017
  17. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    I hope those who read the free spin thread also read this thread. I constantly see some of the names there.

    It was a lot of casinos listed at The Pogg. I would like to see them on the Not Recommended here too. Behind these casinos there's no people who care about players at all, that's very clear.
     
  18. Jan 12, 2017
  19. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Meister Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    I have yet to see any bonus at any Nektan skin where the conversion is not capped at 4x bonus, e.g. their Christmas Calendar had 100%, 50% and other bonuses all was capped at 4x bonus.

    They also cap the conversion on winnings from Free Spins at 4x FS winnings. So if you won 50p from 10 Starburst spins you can withdraw a ma-HOO-ssive 2$! :rolleyes:

    What should be noted though is that a player can withdraw as long as he has not touched the bonus money.
     
  20. Jan 12, 2017
  21. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I'd use the word 'incentive' as opposed to advantage in general, the only exception being the rocking horse poo EV+ offers. All EV- bonuses i.e. the huge majority of them, mathematically reduce the chance of cashing-out a profit on any given deposit as opposed to cash no-bonus play. I think most players would interpret the context of 'advantage' with a pecuniary definition.

    I agree though that Nektan should NOT use the term 'bonus' - when I made a quick calculation (not as accurate as your precision examples) that a player would be 7x more likely to lose WITH it I thought I'd messed-up until I read your detailed analysis! It's even worse than that at certain stakes!

    Great professional report and analysis, congrats for the effort.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  22. Jan 12, 2017
  23. dusky

    dusky Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    England
    Wow, that is insane!

    Surely this is exactly what the UKGC should be looking at, as it is for want of a better word, theft.
     
  24. Jan 12, 2017
  25. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    Thanks!

    There's a big difference between the 'chance of cashing out' and the 'mathematically expected average results'. The chance of cashing out could theoretically reduce while the average expected value improves. The majority of bonuses, even where they are -EV, do improve the expected results for the player over that of playing without a bonus. Even with the 4x win cap, the bonuses offered by Nektan improve the value (or reduce the loss) that players collectively receive on average. Those bonuses are an advantage to the player even if they reduce the possibility of cashing out.

    TP
     
  26. Jan 12, 2017
  27. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Yes, I see your point in that with a bonus (EV- or not) the player can experience a larger amount of RNG results in the very short term and thus has the advantage of being more likely to hit an exceptional win or run simply because of the higher probability more picks gives. Then the obvious disadvantage comes in making that last into a withdrawal then the bonus becomes a millstone, the double-edged sword.

    I categorically state that after switching to cash-only play for 2 years nearly I cash-out far more frequently and lose less. HarryBKK here claims from bonus positions of being up on the starting balance he has made over 40K LESS in cash-outs than he would have without bonus tie-ins in the last 18 months IIRC.

    I suppose cash players have a different definition of 'advantage' than bonus-hunters.

    The way I see a bonus is like standing in front of a bloke with a machine gun and being given a 5 second start before he fires. With the bonus every other bullet in his magazine is a blank, whereas without it they're all live. He starts spraying the bullets and with the bonus magazine I just get shot down slightly later....:D
     
  28. Jan 12, 2017
  29. Naok777

    Naok777 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    UK
    I understand what you are saying in regards to a "normal" bonus, lets say for example 50% deposit bonus with Bx35 WR and no win cap.

    But how could they improve the expected result if the win cap is deposit x1 (4x 25%)?

    Because the expected result would usually include a certain percentage (even if low it should be above absolute zero) of players who manage to increase their balance by 0.01 or more above the starting point.
     
  30. Jan 12, 2017
  31. hedgehok

    hedgehok Meister Member mm3

    Occupation:
    self-employed
    Location:
    Germany
    It would be helpful if you guys could add the listed Nektan Casinos in the C2O-plugin.
    btw great article ThePogg :thumbsup:
     
  32. Jan 13, 2017
  33. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    To give a little example of what I mean in terms of better for the player:

    Two different scenarios (vastly over simplified for the purposes of demonstration):

    1) Deposit £10 get a £10 bonus. You have exactly a 1 in 2 chance of cashing out and that cashout will be £17.50 (your deposit+£7.50)

    2) Deposit £10 and get £10 bonus. You have exactly a 1 in 10 chance of cashing out and that cashout will be for £97.50 (your deposit+£87.50)

    Which is better for the player?

    Option 1) you'll lose £10 one time and win £7.50 the other. So your total result is -£2.50 and your average result is -£2.50/2 = -£1.25.

    Option 2) You'll lose £10 nine times and win £87.50 the other. So your total result is the same -£2.50 but your average result is -£2.50/10 = -£0.25.

    Option 2) is far better for the player despite a far lower probability of cashing out. Over ten plays option 1) would cost you £12.50 while option 2) would cost you £2.50.

    The reality is that where slots and bonuses are concerned working out what's better for you financially is far more complex that simply looking at how often you're likely to cash out. You need to understand how MUCH that cashout is likely to be for. And unfortunately RTP doesn't help. A high bust rate when playing with a bonus actually helps players (little hard to get your head round but I am happy to explain if requested). To actually understand how good/bad a bonus is really requires simulation and looking at which circumstance results in the player expecting to lose less in the long run.

    Each of the simulations run for that report repeated the bonus for the set conditions 10 million times. This was far more than actually necessary, but gives an idea of why I can give specific figures for how much the player is expected to lose.

    TP
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  34. Jan 13, 2017
  35. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    I realise this is probably common knowledge, but where/how do I access that?
     
  36. Jan 13, 2017
  37. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    You've missed something. It's a great tool...they say. I've not used it myself yet but they say it is that ;)
    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/c2o-forum/
     
  38. Jan 13, 2017
  39. rainmaker

    rainmaker I'm not a penguin CAG webmeister

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    You might want to consider removing more casinos from your site.

    A shitty casino like for example Spin and Win has some of the same poor "bonus" rules you will find at Nektan casinos (+ slow payouts and ridiculous payout limits of course).

    Deposit €500 for max bonus. Get a €500 bonus. Complete WR and €500 will be removed and if there is anything left the player can keep up to €500. Yeah.

    Not sure why anyone would promote nor play at these casinos.
     

Share This Page