Need help/advice with a dispute i am having with Voodoo Dreams

[colinsunderland]

Those laws are in place to stop " shell" companies and money laundering, and I dont find them extreme at all. And just what is exactly normal in Holland? Anyone can open a business account and use it for what ever they please? I'm not trying to sound like a bitch, Im truly trying to understand.

You can in the UK yes. I don't know the rules in Holland, but certainly here you can.
I still don't see why you don't think he should be paid. If the company is owned by him and it is a sole trader type of business, then there is clearly no breach.

After a little search the casino is voodoodreams and AG have ruled there is no T&C breach and the player should be paid.

The casino also posted

The paragraphs mentioned above dictates that it should be a credit card owned by you personally. Even though in this case you and you company are the same person. the card is still registered on the company.

If they don't want to allow company cards they should add that to the T&C's, not make them up as they go along.

The T&C's say

'2.13. With regards to deposits and withdrawals of funds into and from your Account, you acknowledge that you shall only use such credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and issued by lawful institutions and that legally belong to you solely. The use of financial instruments whose ownership is shared with other individuals, is not tolerated and will result in voiding of winnings.'

'4.7. You acknowledge that you shall only use debit or credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and lawfully belong to you solely. The use of financial instruments whose ownership is shared with other individuals, is not tolerated and will result in voiding of winnings.'

No other individual shares ownership so there is no breach, even if they say a company card shouldn't be used, the T&C's don't say that, specifically mentioning 'individual'. I would suggest anyone married doesn't play there!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Those laws are in place to stop " shell" companies and money laundering, and I dont find them extreme at all. And just what is exactly normal in Holland? Anyone can open a business account and use it for what ever they please? I'm not trying to sound like a bitch, Im truly trying to understand.

A Sole Proprietorship is directly tied to the person opening it, e.g. you are fully liable even with your house, car, stamp collection, anything. Your credit limits on the "company account" are tied to your personal credit score. All payments/transactions are subject to the same AML and other regulations.

It is not a "Wild Wild West" to open and close as you wish but more to facilitate an easier path to your own small company, especially when the sales/turnover won't be that high.

E.g Singapore with some 4.5Million citizens and expats has over 500K S.P.'s because all is super simplified with almost all of the stuff e.g. tax filing etc, done online.

I ran my S.P. for four years living directly in Singapore and I went once to the registration office and maybe twice to my bank in all those years. Anything else, I was able to do online in a few simple steps. Singapore might be a step further compared to other countries as your ID number / expat permit number is used to access any government facility, making it super easy to do everything online. Even now, 6 years after leaving Singapore, I still have that number imprinted in my memory because I used it so often.

 

[dunover]

Work "for" or work "with"?

Because normally, these kind of companies don't have employees. They work e.g. as a freelancer or in construction.

I mean, I know how you view this. What I'm pointing out is that it is common in Holland and people / companies abroad don't see it like that. I respect your opinions, but please also understand that in other countries they have different manners.
In general Dutch people are pretty reluctant to spending money they can not afford to lose. I can imagine an owner of a business with filled bank account is even more reluctant. I know quite of lot of them to be honest.

You're telling me! Try getting a round of beer out of them!

 

[LadyJelena]

@Erik should be a representative we need here. Hopefully he'll chime in

 

[NickG84]

@Erik should be a representative we need here. Hopefully he'll chime in

Yeah he also responded at AG.

 

[bebo67]

A Sole Proprietorship is directly tied to the person opening it, e.g. you are fully liable even with your house, car, stamp collection, anything. Your credit limits on the "company account" are tied to your personal credit score. All payments/transactions are subject to the same AML and other regulations.

It is not a "Wild Wild West" to open and close as you wish but more to facilitate an easier path to your own small company, especially when the sales/turnover won't be that high.

E.g Singapore with some 4.5Million citizens and expats has over 500K S.P.'s because all is super simplified with almost all of the stuff e.g. tax filing etc, done online.

I ran my S.P. for four years living directly in Singapore and I went once to the registration office and maybe twice to my bank in all those years. Anything else, I was able to do online in a few simple steps. Singapore might be a step further compared to other countries as your ID number / expat permit number is used to access any government facility, making it super easy to do everything online. Even now, 6 years after leaving Singapore, I still have that number imprinted in my memory because I used it so often.

How does that work come tax time? I'm able to claim a " loss" and get credits.

 

[NickG84]

How does that work come tax time? I'm able to claim a " loss" and get credits.

In holland every quarter we need to pay the sales tax (VAT) which my customers pay (hourly rate + 21% vat) and can deduct from there business. Every once in a year you get the big bill at your income tax which is calculated based of your sales. In general with all deductions around 40/45% of sales is tax.

 

[nikantw]

It is perfectly clear that the OP took unnecessary risk but didn't breach any terms, so he should get paid.

BTW, casinos should always pay, as I mentioned in another thread. There is never a good reason not to pay (unless the software has been hacked). What changes in each case is who will get the money.
If it is crime related, the money will go to the authorities.
If it is SE or RG the money should go for safe keeping until the end of the SE.
If it is about terms, the casinos will just have to make sure the terms are met before they let you place a bet. If they can't they will have to pay. Simple, isn't it?

 

[lotusch]

You're telling me! Try getting a round of beer out of them!

Oi!!!!!!!

 

[ternur]

If the law is similar in the Netherlands to that in Finland, it shouldn't matter if the OP used a "business bank account" or not. A sole proprietor is not a legal entity when it comes to liability or debts, the proprietor is fully responsible for everything with all of their property.

Bank accounts have nothing to do with taxation or bookkeeping in these cases. Income is taxed based on the net income (profit) earned from the business. You pay the relevant taxes based on your profit and since you're personally liable for everything, it doesn't matter if you use the funds in your so called business account any which way you want to.

 

[bebo67]

In holland every quarter we need to pay the sales tax (VAT) which my customers pay (hourly rate + 21% vat) and can deduct from there business. Every once in a year you get the big bill at your income tax which is calculated based of your sales. In general with all deductions around 40/45% of sales is tax.

I just started my business up in 2016. Got sick and lost a year and more on it, but been fully operational since October 2017. I have 5 books that are going to print, so I will have a huge loss this year. Any monies I win, roughly 90% goes on my business. I will never take money out of it for anything except business related. To me it's like stealing. I have all next year to recoup my losses through sales, and what the government gives back to me come tax time. 2020 tax year will be me paying I am sure.

 

[bebo67]

If the law is similar in the Netherlands to that in Finland, it shouldn't matter if the OP used a "business bank account" or not. A sole proprietor is not a legal entity when it comes to liability or debts, the proprietor is fully responsible for everything with all of their property.

Bank accounts have nothing to do with taxation or bookkeeping in these cases. Income is taxed based on the net income (profit) earned from the business. You pay the relevant taxes based on your profit and since you're personally liable for everything, it doesn't matter if you use the funds in your so called business account any which way you want to.

Too much red tape in Canada.

 

[ternur]

Too much red tape in Canada.

It's the same thing here. Probably worse. Over regulation of everything and general legislative incontinence. And don't get me started on taxation.

 

[Harry_BKK]

How does that work come tax time? I'm able to claim a " loss" and get credits.

No taxes on the first SGD150K net yearly profit. Submitting a simple Excel sheet with expenses vs. sales figures is sufficient.

"Losses" are carried over and reduces the tax liability in the following years.

Plus Singaporeans (not foreigners) can apply for government grants for their start.

They are not trusting people blindly in such that they know what a S.P. running e.g. a hawker stall can make on average in a year. If you're selling chicken rice for SGD3 a plate, it is rather easy to calculate.

 

[pinnit2014]

Think in the Uk you can carry them back to previous years as well if losses made in first 3/4 years of starting up. And if you've some left over you can use it against any capital gains you've made to reduce that CGT liability.

 

[bebo67]

Think in the Uk you can carry them back to previous years as well if losses made in first 3/4 years of starting up. And if you've some left over you can use it against any capital gains you've made to reduce that CGT liability.

Yes we have the same with unused Capital Gains amount each year.

 

[L&L-Jan]

You're telling me! Try getting a round of beer out of them!

Sharp ! Thanks mate, when you are in Malta give a shout and I'll give you a beer

 

[NickG84]

Today i got a response from voodoodreams. They believe they acted according to there T&C. Guess it is time to and this to the MGA.

———
Hi Nicky,

Thank you for getting back to us and apologizes for the late reply.

We have consolidated this case with our legal team and our stance remains the same. We have acted as per our terms of service and in accordance with applicable laws.

Should you wish to dispute this further, we ask you to turn to our regulator,Malta Gaming Authority, which you may reach here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Thank you for your understanding and we wish you a good day.

 

[KasinoKing]

Today i got a response from voodoodreams. They believe they acted according to there T&C. Guess it is time to and this to the MGA.

As a last resort, I would recommend submitting a PAB here.

PAB = Player ArBitration (previously called Pitch-A-Bitch!)
This is CasinoMeister's FREE service to help players with problems at non-rogue casinos.

To submit your PAB, click here: Player Arbitration

Be sure to read ALL the terms for submitting a PAB, including the Frequently Asked Questions here: PAB FAQs

Good luck!
KK

 

[Erik]

Hi

We are looking in to this case through a different channel right now, The OP can if he wants send me a PM

Regards
Erik

 

[colinsunderland]

Hi

We are looking in to this case through a different channel right now, The OP can if he wants send me a PM

Regards
Erik

How exactly has he broken any of your terms? He's proven (assuming what he says is true) the bank account is owned by him, which is what your terms state it must be. Nowhere do you state company cards cannot be used. You also seem happy to be part of the askgamblers process, yet now they ruled against you, ignore it. Why bother taking part in dispute resolution through sites like that if you just ignore their decision?

 

[maxd]

The PAB has been completed and I have ruled in favour of the player.

I base my decision on the grounds that the casino was attempting to use the legalese of whether a company is "owned" by someone or is an individual "person" under the law and therefore not the same as the person who owns and controls it.

IMO that that's all BS: if the casino wanted to pay this player as they should then they could easily verify the player's sole right of access to that card. At that, by the way, is what the Terms as they are currently written require: "you shall only use such credit cards ... that legally belong to you solely". Splitting hairs over whether his company is a "person" is a cheap shot and unfortunately for the casino it will look like nothing more than a dodge to avoid paying.

 

[colinsunderland]

Well done Max, @Erik now that 2 independent sites have ruled against you, will you be paying the player?

 

[maxd]

I'm told the case is now with the MGA and Erik says they'll respect the ruling there.

 

[Tirilej]

I'm told the case is now with the MGA and Erik says they'll respect the ruling there.

So there is really no point in them accepting to discuss any PAB's here in the future then? They maybe should direct players to MGA right away instead.
I think they are just stubborn.