Need help/advice with a dispute i am having with Voodoo Dreams

NickG84

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PABnononaccred
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Jun 20, 2018
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Hi all!

Hope you all are doing fine. I am in need of some advice with a dispute i am having with 1 of the online casino's.

At 11/06/2018 i deposited through my second bank account which i myself registered and named according to my company name purely for professional reasons. My company is a sole proprietorship meaning there is no seperation between business and private according to the law. I am the sole responsible for everything.

Now after the deposit i had a hot streak and managed to make 7.5k withdrawal. Offcourse i needed to send documentation to validate my account and i did. After 1 week i got the email saying that i breached T&C and that all winnings (5515.12 euro) are voided and all the money i deposited through said account are being refunded.

The term i violated according to them is: 'Only use such credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and issued by lawful institutions and that legally belong to you solely'

Legally the account belongs to me solely. The response i got from them on that matter is: 'Even though in this case you and you company are the same person. the card is still registered on the company.'

I have had myself advised by multiple lawyers and they all state that i am in accordance to the T&C. I'm currently in conclave with them on AskGamblers but it seems we will be getting nowhere. I'm wondering what my next steps would be. I could reach out to the official channels. MGA and ECC. prior before taking legal actions.

Any advise?

Thanks!
 

bebo67

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Why would you use a recently opened business account for gambling? They are and should be two separate entities. Sorry as a small business owner, I think the casino made the right call. Especially since it's a brand new account. Never mix business with pleasure. Just my opinion.
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
I was about to reply how lame I find these terms. I was about to say that I know its pretty common in Holland that this happens. And what a surprise, our OP is from Holland!

You can send me a PM and I can try to help you with some advice what kind of documents you could use, which we would fully accept.

On the other side, they voided winnings and will return deposits. So there is no "real" damage.

Kr.
 

bebo67

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I was about to reply how lame I find these terms. I was about to say that I know its pretty common in Holland that this happens. And what a surprise, our OP is from Holland!

You can send me a PM and I can try to help you with some advice what kind of documents you could use, which we would fully accept.

On the other side, they voided winnings and will return deposits. So there is no "real" damage.

Kr.
Why do you find the terms lame?
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
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Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Why do you find the terms lame?

because it is pretty common in Holland. There are plenty of people that have a business/personal bank account, where the owner of the account is the company name.
There is a simple document to support this though, casinos would need to accept this if you ask me. We would, thats for sure - of course, with supporting proof.

Another issue I've experienced when I started working in the igaming was that companies do not allow KYC for a "joined" account, e.g. husband and wife.
Bank account contains two surnames and that causes a lot of confusion, AML wise.

But these things are so common and easy to tackle. IMO the term makes sense and is even required. But if different document can prove the OP is right, why not accept it? I mean, everything is on paper and there is no AML risk at all.

Kr.
 

colinsunderland

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uk
Why would you use a recently opened business account for gambling? They are and should be two separate entities. Sorry as a small business owner, I think the casino made the right call. Especially since it's a brand new account. Never mix business with pleasure. Just my opinion.

Why do you think they are right? I wouldn't use my business accounts but they are solely mine, so wouldn't expect to be in breach of those terms if I did.
 

NickG84

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Jun 20, 2018
Location
Netherlands
Why would you use a recently opened business account for gambling? They are and should be two separate entities. Sorry as a small business owner, I think the casino made the right call. Especially since it's a brand new account. Never mix business with pleasure. Just my opinion.

True. Stupid mistake from my side. But the account is purely convenience. As a sole proprietary i could have have all my invoices paid to my personal account. The fact is i am complying to there T&C since i am the legal owner.
 

bebo67

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because it is pretty common in Holland. There are plenty of people that have a business/personal bank account, where the owner of the account is the company name.
There is a simple document to support this though, casinos would need to accept this if you ask me. We would, thats for sure - of course, with supporting proof.

Another issue I've experienced when I started working in the igaming was that companies do not allow KYC for a "joined" account, e.g. husband and wife.
Bank account contains two surnames and that causes a lot of confusion, AML wise.

But these things are so common and easy to tackle. IMO the term makes sense and is even required. But if different document can prove the OP is right, why not accept it? I mean, everything is on paper and there is no AML risk at all.

Kr.
I guess the fact that its a brand new account, a business account to boot and then used for gambling is sending me red flags.
 

dunover

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I wouldn't like to work for a small business where I knew the owner had a gambling account linked to it. Imagine the aggro it could cause if the business went into liquidation or couldn't pay creditors because the cash flow was fucked by deposits to a casino? In answer to the question above, what earthly reason is there to have a gambling account hooked up to your business account unless it's some kind of research company? What sort of person opens a business account then lets the bank see personal gambling transactions on it?

Another possibility is that a business account is often linked to a line of credit higher than your personal account, plus what the hell would it look like on the accounts if you ever came to transfer or sell the business? "Er..£100 stationery, £450 laptop, £630 fuel bills, £2,100 William Hills" Yeah, alright mate see ya....

I can think of numerous reasons why it's a dumb idea to use a business account. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

NickG84

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I guess the fact that its a brand new account, a business account to boot and then used for gambling is sending me red flags.

From KYC perspective i would understand. But i have send all the documents that proof i am the sole owner.
 

Jono777

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Have to agree with bebo, why use a business account and why take the risk? (Are you an experienced online player? did this possibility not cross your mind? , If not then fair enough)

This been said its easily enough to set up online banking for both business and personal (I'm assuming 90% of us have this already, being in business I'd assume you fit into this percentage?)

Could you not have then simply transferred yourself some playing funds from your business acct to personal one?

Given the ever increasing T&C's these days, its best to not take ANY risks, especially when they can be easily and simply avoided.

I do wish you the best with your personal case though and receiving your winnings.
 

NickG84

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Have to agree with bebo, why use a business account and why take the risk? (Are you an experienced online player? did this possibility not cross your mind? , If not then fair enough)

This been said its easily enough to set up online banking for both business and personal (I'm assuming 90% of us have this already, being in business I'd assume you fit into this percentage?)

Could you not have then simply transferred yourself some playing funds from your business acct to personal one?

Given the ever increasing T&C's these days, its best to not take ANY risks, especially when they can be easily and simply avoided.

I do wish you the best with your personal case though and receiving your winnings.

It did not cross my mind no. I could have transferred the funds to my other account yes but i did not wanted to wait. I know patience is a virtue.

I know it is a mistake to use a business account to deposit from a business perspective. But that does not mean i breached T&C. The account is lawfully mine. In holland as a sole propetiary there is no seperation between private and business. I am responsible for all. If business bills are not being paid (which is not the case) then they can take it from my private account.
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
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Location
Malta
I wouldn't like to work for a small business where I knew the owner had a gambling account linked to it.

Work "for" or work "with"?

Because normally, these kind of companies don't have employees. They work e.g. as a freelancer or in construction.

I mean, I know how you view this. What I'm pointing out is that it is common in Holland and people / companies abroad don't see it like that. I respect your opinions, but please also understand that in other countries they have different manners.
In general Dutch people are pretty reluctant to spending money they can not afford to lose. I can imagine an owner of a business with filled bank account is even more reluctant. I know quite of lot of them to be honest.
 

bebo67

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From KYC perspective i would understand. But i have send all the documents that proof i am the sole owner.
Due to the date of it being opened and then the deposit right after, my gut is telling me that you don't own a business and it was just opened to gamble. If I am wrong, I'm sorry, but as others will attest, I don't make bold remarks unless I am almost positive. Should you get your money anyways? I guess, but you might want to look at your inner self.
 

NickG84

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Due to the date of it being opened and then the deposit right after, my gut is telling me that you don't own a business and it was just opened to gamble. If I am wrong, I'm sorry, but as others will attest, I don't make bold remarks unless I am almost positive. Should you get your money anyways? I guess, but you might want to look at your inner self.

The company is opened a while before. And i am a 'freelance' developer.

And yes i need to look at my inner self. Don't we all ;)
 

colinsunderland

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Due to the date of it being opened and then the deposit right after, my gut is telling me that you don't own a business and it was just opened to gamble. If I am wrong, I'm sorry, but as others will attest, I don't make bold remarks unless I am almost positive. Should you get your money anyways? I guess, but you might want to look at your inner self.

I must be missing something but I can't see anything saying either the bank account or casino account were newly opened?
Even so, the OP isn't in breach of the terms so not sure why anyone would think he shouldn't be paid. You allow casinos to not pay just because they don't want to you are opening up a fairly large can of worms.
Even if it was opened just to gamble, so what? I used to have an account that was only used for that reason. I would transfer my budget for that month to it, and when it was gone, it was gone. It never once got used for any other purpose.
 

bebo67

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I must be missing something but I can't see anything saying either the bank account or casino account were newly opened?
Even so, the OP isn't in breach of the terms so not sure why anyone would think he shouldn't be paid. You allow casinos to not pay just because they don't want to you are opening up a fairly large can of worms.
Even if it was opened just to gamble, so what? I used to have an account that was only used for that reason. I would transfer my budget for that month to it, and when it was gone, it was gone. It never once got used for any other purpose.
Right, but I will agree to disagree, when an account that is opened is a business account.
 

colinsunderland

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Right, but I will agree to disagree, when an account that is opened is a business account.

But thats already been explained that in Holland it is perfectly normal and a casino rep has said they would accept it and payout.
If you open a business account here you usually get the choice of having the account name as 'your name', 'you name T/A business name, 'business name'.

All of those legally belong to the customer and are well within the T&C's to be able to use. Adding extra stuff to T&C's shouldn't be allowed, and legally isn't.

Which casino is it OP?
 

Harry_BKK

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Sole Proprietorships are personal companies pushed by governments to lead people to go self-employed. Only in the rarest of cases have I heard that a S.P. actually employs people. Maybe family members for accounting reasons.
The rules are so simple that everyone can start a company. E.g accounts can be done on a simple Excel sheet with one column = expenses and one column = sales. There are default limits for taxes, e.g. in Singapore you don't pay any income tax for the first SGD150K in yearly net profit, no VAT if your sales are below SGD 1 Million, default amounts for health insurance etc build in and deductible from the gross profit. Really super simple to set-up and run.

I have one in Singapore ( it cost me 3 minutes to complete a form online and SGD60 per year) and you can use personal bank accounts or set-up a company account if you want, but there is no need. The government won't care what kind of debits go out from either of the accounts. E.g. in Singapore most hawker stalls are a S.P., making their lives a lot easier as there is very, very little bureaucracy.

Personally, I wouldn't use a card registered in the company's name to pay for gambling expenses but there is nothing speaking against it other than the visuals when your bank manager goes through the records because you want to increase your credit limit. However, the card is actually still in your name and is your personal liability, plus the credit limit is tied to your credit score.
 

bebo67

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But thats already been explained that in Holland it is perfectly normal and a casino rep has said they would accept it and payout.
If you open a business account here you usually get the choice of having the account name as 'your name', 'you name T/A business name, 'business name'.

All of those legally belong to the customer and are well within the T&C's to be able to use. Adding extra stuff to T&C's shouldn't be allowed, and legally isn't.

Which casino is it OP?
In Canada you have to have a Master Business License to open a business account. That license is registered with Canadian Government, and will have your business name first and foremost. Anything that comes out of my account says **** Publishing House. If I used that name to open an account at a casino, do you think the said casino is not going to raise eyebrows?
 
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