My GoWild ordeal

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Just to explain to Floyd why I think that way of them.

I certainly havent forgotten GoWilds entry into the world of online casinos. In a business almost solely based on trust I couldnt consider to play at a casino which had such issues in the beginning. Not to forget the complete silence from you and your company back then.

It shows what they are capable of..

And as always just my opinion.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It's not that simple, in my experience.

Example A: casino abuses player to no end, player cries 'Uncle!' and does a PAB calling the casino the arse of Satan. Who's the 'innocent'? Who knows until you dig into it.

Example B: player lies cheats and scams their way through the casino for yonks, finally the casino slams the cage door down on them and the player comes running to us with it. Who's the 'innocent'? You guessed it, don't know until there's digging done.

IMHO looking for the 'innocent' in the vast majority of these situations is like looking for the virgin in a maternity ward: wrong place, wrong time, and it's the wrong thing to be asking in the first place.

It's not about the innocent party, but who has the burden of proof to prove the OTHER party guilty. Where the accused has to prove innocence, we have injustice. This is often the case in a totalitarian state, where an annoyance is accused of some vague offence, and has to prove they DIDN'T do it. Often they are not even allowed to see the evidence against them, yet are expected to prove they are innocent. This is usually used when the state has already decided on guilt, and any trial is merely for show.

This ALSO happens in the casino industry, where the casino can level an accusation at a player, not disclose any evidence, but it is the PLAYER who has to prove they are innocent, and NOT the casino who has to prove their evidence is good enough to prove guilt. Although this case is not that bad, there ARE cases where players are cheated of large sums of money, and later it turns out the evidence the casino holds is flawed. This is compounded by the lack, in many cases, of access to an independent appeals process. We CANNOT rely on the gaming licence issuer in many cases, because they do NOT actually REGULATE, but merely provide a base of operations for a fee, and have NO player dispute system in place. Even Malta has shown no real interest in protecting players, and this has allowed some operators with a Maltese licence to screw around with players simply by saying they will ONLY deal with the Maltese commission when players have problems.


Example A - The player says "casino is the arse of Satan.....". The PLAYER has to say why, what they did that was wrong, and provide any evidence they have. The casino is presumed innocent, they are allowed to see the evidence against them, and can refute it with their own.

Example B - Casino says "we caught you defrauding us, you won't be paid, there is no appeal, decision is final". Player asks to see the evidence, but casino says "No, you are fraud, decision is final". Player has to argue innocence against entrenched resistance. They may be guilty, BUT there are innocents too, and they are not being given a FAIR chance to argue their case. Casinos do NOT refer player to independent appeals process, they keep quiet about this possibility, and some refuse to cooperate with the likes of PAB when aggrieved players track it down.


Floyd. Despite what you say, you STILL take the position that the OP has 2 accounts, and has already received the promotion on one of them. The OP says this is NOT the case at all, and is trying to get to the bottom of the matter, but is finding it a hard slog through the mire.

Are you SURE this is a case of duplicate accounts, and NOT a case of SIMILAR details, but NOT THE SAME PERSON OR HOUSEHOLD?

The lessons are not JUST for one particular casino, but it seems MANY casinos do not consider the alternative explanations before accusing a player of breaching the rules, or of fraud.

You say the country is irrelevant, but before you said it did at least look odd because it is a country that does not send many players. If it was irrelevant, why make such a remark at all?

The email problem is also irrelevant, it is the fault of a third party that the emails could not get through. The casino did not receive them, but the player had no idea how to get around the problem, as it was NOT at his end either.


Email is unreliable and insecure, so don't just moan, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Bypass it altogether with a web based secure document upload facility. The Viper software also comes with a messaging facility called "casino mail", so why is this hardly ever used?
Live chat is OK, but you CANNOT send a document that way.

This is NOTHING the PLAYER can do anything about, the CASINO has to provide the facility before the players can use it.


Whatever else is said, you have called the OP a liar, so expect him to have a temper on him. You have explained, but not apologised, and STILL stick to the position that the OP has opened 2 accounts in breach of your rules. Either he has, and is trying to get away with it, or you are stoking his anger even further.

I doubt he will ever play at Go Wild, but he MAY want his name cleared, and this may drive him to continue this issue to the bitter end.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
It's not about the innocent party, but who has the burden of proof to prove the OTHER party guilty. Where the accused has to prove innocence, we have injustice. This is often the case in a totalitarian state....

No offense VWM but what you're describing -- "guilty" this and "burden of proof" that -- has virtually nothing to do with the PAB process that I manage.

I'm not a judge, it's not a court and there are no 'innocents' or 'guilty parties' if you want to be blunt about it. There's just an issue, a difference of opinion over one thing or another, and a need to sort it out.

All that high-falutin' judge and jury talk makes for pithy posts but it has nothing to do with the day-to-day reality of the thousand or so PABs I've seen and handled.

And 'totalitarian state' etc etc?!? Dude, what were you smoking last night? We're talking about complaint issues at a gambling website not
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.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
No offense VWM but what you're describing -- "guilty" this and "burden of proof" that -- has virtually nothing to do with the PAB process that I manage.

I'm not a judge, it's not a court and there are no 'innocents' or 'guilty parties' if you want to be blunt about it. There's just an issue, a difference of opinion over one thing or another, and a need to sort it out.

All that high-falutin' judge and jury talk makes for pithy posts but it has nothing to do with the day-to-day reality of the thousand or so PABs I've seen and handled.

And 'totalitarian state' etc etc?!? Dude, what were you smoking last night? We're talking about complaint issues at a gambling website not
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.

Granted, but what about those operators who do NOT even ALLOW the PAB process, those on the "no can do" list. They can cast judgement, leaving the player with little chance of appeal. In any other consumer relationship, there would be ways to get a proper review, such as going to local Trading Standards, the regulator, etc. Unlike your PAB service, the business are LEGALLY OBLIGED to cooperate, they CANNOT say "no can do" to Trading Standards, or their industry regulator. With casinos, we are not even talking about the odd faulty refridgerator either, we can be looking at issues involving THOUSANDS of dollars/euro/pounds. There is even easy access to the small claims court, where the business MUST SHOW IT'S EVIDENCE, and if it says "no can do", it risks the judge automatically granting the judgement in favour of the complainant.
Cases such as this would come under "balance of probabilities", rather than "beyond all reasonable doubt", as is the case with a CRIMINAL court.

There is nothing to stop a player going to court to recover monies from an offshore casino, but without a presence in the UK, there would be no way to enforce it, and the operator could simply ignore the judgement.

Overall, things are getting WORSE for players, not better. This is the wrong direction for an industry of around 15 years in operation.

PAB does work, BUT it requires the cooperation of BOTH parties, and the operators at least should NOT be trying to block the process - it makes them look untrustworthy, just as it looks "dodgy" when a player bitches, yet seems unwilling to try PAB when offered, or insists on complaining "through a friend";)

This issue, although not about money being confiscated, is STILL a dispute over the collection and use of data, and the right of the individual to have CORRECT data stored and used regarding their affairs.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Floyd, I'm glad to see you back participating in the forum. I would have never tried GoWild if not for CM.

I've made a few deposits, never any cashouts. The "upgrade" to the new lobby made it almost unplayable for me.

I like your support. I don't like being called "dear". After the first time, I asked that they not do so. After the second time, they read the note on my file, and it's not been a problem since. But that must come from management training, since it was more than one operator.

If I was the OP, I don't know if I would use my one free PAB for a casino that failed to issue me a freechip that I probably would not manage a cashout from.

It would be a different issue if winnings were denied. JMO.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Floyd, I'm glad to see you back participating in the forum. I would have never tried GoWild if not for CM.

I've made a few deposits, never any cashouts. The "upgrade" to the new lobby made it almost unplayable for me.

I like your support. I don't like being called "dear". After the first time, I asked that they not do so. After the second time, they read the note on my file, and it's not been a problem since. But that must come from management training, since it was more than one operator.

If I was the OP, I don't know if I would use my one free PAB for a casino that failed to issue me a freechip that I probably would not manage a cashout from.

It would be a different issue if winnings were denied. JMO.

Neither would I, and maybe this is why this became a forum debate, rather than a PAB. I still think the main issue for the OP was clearing his name of the "charge" levied that he had already opened a previous account on that same day. Clearly, SOMEBODY opened this first account, but the OP said it wasn't him. The OP may well let this drop now, and this discussion will grind to a halt, since we now seem to be covering the same ground over and over again.
 

Iredge

Dormant account
PABnorogue
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Location
Spain
I can't believe the crap that some people post about casinos sometimes. It is a frequent request from online casinos to ask for your documents. As an online business dealing with money, they have every right to do so. That is their only way to avoid fraud and bonus abuse.

Even for a mere 20,00 EUR no deposit bonus. Let me remind you that you can still hit a massive cashout with those bonuses if you happen to play the right slot at the right time. A lot of Joes out there bitch about a casino as soon as they encounter those problems.

What makes it unbearable is when you start bitching a casino on the bases of a no deposit bonus.

I work in the busyness myself and I get a lot of those.

What you need to do is read the T&Cs. Do never open two accounts on the same casinos, even with your brother's, mother's, sister's, father's name : this is the obvious!!!
 

Deeplay

New World Order
webmeister
CAG
mm1
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Location
The biG Eu
I can't believe the crap that some people post about casinos sometimes. It is a frequent request from online casinos to ask for your documents. As an online business dealing with money, they have every right to do so. That is their only way to avoid fraud and bonus abuse.

Even for a mere 20,00 EUR no deposit bonus. Let me remind you that you can still hit a massive cashout with those bonuses if you happen to play the right slot at the right time. A lot of Joes out there bitch about a casino as soon as they encounter those problems.

What makes it unbearable is when you start bitching a casino on the bases of a no deposit bonus.

I work in the busyness myself and I get a lot of those.

What you need to do is read the T&Cs. Do never open two accounts on the same casinos, even with your brother's, mother's, sister's, father's name : this is the obvious!!!

Lol why re-open this thread from months ago. And your point is ? sad.
 

WonderingSpirit

Casino critic
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Location
Scandinavia
I can't believe the crap that some people post about casinos sometimes. It is a frequent request from online casinos to ask for your documents. As an online business dealing with money, they have every right to do so. That is their only way to avoid fraud and bonus abuse.

Even for a mere 20,00 EUR no deposit bonus. Let me remind you that you can still hit a massive cashout with those bonuses if you happen to play the right slot at the right time. A lot of Joes out there bitch about a casino as soon as they encounter those problems.

What makes it unbearable is when you start bitching a casino on the bases of a no deposit bonus.

I work in the busyness myself and I get a lot of those.

What you need to do is read the T&Cs. Do never open two accounts on the same casinos, even with your brother's, mother's, sister's, father's name : this is the obvious!!!

As Doomed said its pointless... and also wrong

Free chips are usually attached with a max cashout. You must read the T&C better :)
 

felicie

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
somewhere else
I don't know why anyone asks why reopen this thread? thats what we do here - talk about things and talk about them again. and again.
I just wanted to throw in (and perhaps I am repeating myself:rolleyes:) that Go Wild treated me great to the end (June 1) even though I couldn't deposit for the last year or so for some silly reason. I for one miss all those nice surprises every month.
ps. I'd also rather be called 'dear' than many other frequently used names these days but what bugs me is that I hear myself using it just like the old ladies did when I was young. :eek2:
 

Iredge

Dormant account
PABnorogue
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Location
Spain
I just reopened this thread! (was it closed?) A forum is not like msn chatting mate! You just come across topics as they may interest you at a certain point in time.

I was just looking for threads that had anything to do with GoWild it says on this website "proceed with care", and I happen to play there every now and then. And just for your info I actually got a 700,00EUR cash out there a couple of days ago out of 200,00 EUR. I send my docs right away as they requested and the money was on my moneybookers account today. How about that?

Gowild is a good casino, the customer support is always, well....supportive.

All I was saying was that it is wrong, ignorant,and damn right rude for people to bitch about casinos as soon as they are asked for docs or things like that.

Trust me I know what I am talking about.

I understand that there are rogue casinos out there. I actually got crooked myself by Aztecasino. But some people get paranoid as soon as there are any inconvinience and many get abusive.

All I am saying is : before you bitch a casino look into what you may have done wrong first. And by all means : Read the T&Cs.... ;)
 

same_old

Dormant account
webmeister
PABaccred
Joined
Mar 4, 2007
Location
Australia
I just reopened this thread! (was it closed?) A forum is not like msn chatting mate! You just come across topics as they may interest you at a certain point in time.

I was just looking for threads that had anything to do with GoWild it says on this website "proceed with care", and I happen to play there every now and then. And just for your info I actually got a 700,00EUR cash out there a couple of days ago out of 200,00 EUR. I send my docs right away as they requested and the money was on my moneybookers account today. How about that?

Gowild is a good casino, the customer support is always, well....supportive.

All I was saying was that it is wrong, ignorant,and damn right rude for people to bitch about casinos as soon as they are asked for docs or things like that.

Trust me I know what I am talking about.

I understand that there are rogue casinos out there. I actually got crooked myself by Aztecasino. But some people get paranoid as soon as there are any inconvinience and many get abusive.

All I am saying is : before you bitch a casino look into what you may have done wrong first. And by all means : Read the T&Cs.... ;)

Now that is 700 HUNDRED euro isnt it and not 700 hundered thousand euro?
 

felicie

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
somewhere else
:lolup:that's cute same_old. all this talk and you zoom right in to the amount. I didn't even notice it. sharp as a tack, sharp as a marble and in that order. :rolleyes:
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
I too can say I was somewhat hard done by playing at go wild.

I had signed up and started playing the Tourneys since I wasnt going to deposit until the end of the month.

I played 1 of the tourneys run by MG (the hourly $50 1), came 5th or so and got a whopping $3 :D


anyways I played at gowild, managed to meet wr and have some wins with it. Went to cashout $28 (or something along thoese lines)

They asked for ID... sent... all fine...

then days on they demanded I must make a minimum deposit in order to cashout anything... fair enough but what made it worse is the fact I would of been forced to take the wild welcome bonus on that deposit...

So wheres the sence? I won that $28 fair and square... but the only way to cash it out would be to deposit... take their bonus... meet WR and cashout. However the chances are I wouldnt of met WR so hardly worth it for $28.

After that I uninstalled and when I did have money which i would of deposited there I just didnt bother
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I too can say I was somewhat hard done by playing at go wild.

I had signed up and started playing the Tourneys since I wasnt going to deposit until the end of the month.

I played 1 of the tourneys run by MG (the hourly $50 1), came 5th or so and got a whopping $3 :D


anyways I played at gowild, managed to meet wr and have some wins with it. Went to cashout $28 (or something along thoese lines)

They asked for ID... sent... all fine...

then days on they demanded I must make a minimum deposit in order to cashout anything... fair enough but what made it worse is the fact I would of been forced to take the wild welcome bonus on that deposit...

So wheres the sence? I won that $28 fair and square... but the only way to cash it out would be to deposit... take their bonus... meet WR and cashout. However the chances are I wouldnt of met WR so hardly worth it for $28.

After that I uninstalled and when I did have money which i would of deposited there I just didnt bother

I don't think you're actually forced to take the bonus. I would have double checked that. If you don't wager before you request it, most casinos will remove a bonus. Any casinos I know of, anyway.
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
I don't think you're actually forced to take the bonus. I would have double checked that. If you don't wager before you request it, most casinos will remove a bonus. Any casinos I know of, anyway.

I did double check and they told me:

"We would like to inform you that in order for you to receive your winnings, you are required to make your first deposit (of minimum 20 or more) and to complete at least half of the playthrough requirement for your first deposit bonus. "

So it worked out that if I deposited the winnings would be in play and with the amount of wagering needed it would not be worth playing since when I meet half WR my balance may be empty.

Felcie - didnt quite understand your post but if it was asking what was the point of cashing out that low amount then its simple...

I won it from playing with just a few bucks I won from a tourney. The WR from that bonus amount was met. I had an amount I could of cashed out... It would of been no logic to play on because where would the playtime end with such a small amount??.... when my balance was empty.

The tournament was run by MG.. (The 1s that are on all mg casinos). It wasnt directly run by gowild. I had already met WR for the few bucks winnings and they refused to pay me unless I deposited and met another set of WR for a bonus.

Had they let me deposit and withdraw all of it or given me the option to remove the bonus I would of course done it but that wasnt the case.
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
First, since when is there a playthrough on winnings from a networkwide tourney?
As far as I know prizes won in a MG tourney are cash, no WR.

Second, that rule kinda sucks because of the mandatory bonus, but almost every casino requires a deposit before you can cash out.
Never found that to be unreasonable..
But as I understand you're letting them have the winnings now?:confused:

Why dont you just make a minimum deposit and try your luck?
Put in 20.-, get a 20.- bonus, play and if you win, you win, and if you lose you can take out the 28.- so you still have a small profit.:D
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
First, since when is there a playthrough on winnings from a networkwide tourney?
As far as I know prizes won in a MG tourney are cash, no WR.

Second, that rule kinda sucks because of the mandatory bonus, but almost every casino requires a deposit before you can cash out.
Never found that to be unreasonable..
But as I understand you're letting them have the winnings now?:confused:

Why dont you just make a minimum deposit and try your luck?
Put in 20.-, get a 20.- bonus, play and if you win, you win, and if you lose you can take out the 28.- so you still have a small profit.:D

Too late now the winnings were lost. This was a month or so ago.

Thanks to play at rivals and being "robbed" out of £1000's from taking bonuses where I never once met WR I no longer take bonuses at any casino.

I would of certainly played my own cash at gowild. However since they forced a bonus upon me I decided they are not going to be having any money out of my wallet :p
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
So you already played and lost what you won in the tourney?

Was that before or after this discussion started? lol
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
So you already played and lost what you won in the tourney?

Was that before or after this discussion started? lol

before... since the topic was regarding something to do with go wild I though it was relevant to post my experience of them ;)
 
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