MrVegas (Videoslots) refusing CrazyTime bonus

dec2008mcl

Full Member
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Yes I'm in the UK.
Small claims court - £250 upfront

Plus UK courts are powerless in enforcement of verdicts of overseas entities
It would cost 205, and with the evidence you have it would be worth it considering also the Andrew Green/betfred case. Your case is no where near the magnitude of that one and they found in favour of the claimant. As for being overseas…they have a uk licence they would want to protect. As has already been said above send them a signed and dated letter of action, telling them they have 7 days from date of letter to pay all monies owed, if not paid you will commence legal proceedings and won’t accept an out of court settlement after that point.
 

ads2003uk

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UK is now outside of EU, so even if I won the case at a court, recovering any funds from the is basically impossible.
UKGC can't force them to pay, this is what ADR is for.
 

dec2008mcl

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UK is now outside of EU, so even if I won the case at a court, recovering any funds from the is basically impossible.
UKGC can't force them to pay, this is what ADR is for.
So your saying UKGC the organisation that allows them to provide a gambling service here in the UK couldn’t force them to pay? What about paying a fine that they themselves issue? Would there be any consequences for them if they didn’t pay said fine? Like another fine? Or a restriction of licence? If you had a court order it would speed up UKGC into action who otherwise won’t give a fuck about you.. wake up man.. ADR’s are to protect gambling companies from court rulings.

On another note it’s really noticeable how many of the people who were prominent on this site are now missing..I think if there’s a tell about the state of online gambling nowadays it’s surely that. Obvs along with OPs fraud/theft
 

ads2003uk

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A court request is not a fine by the governing body which is the UKGC. If they didn't pay a fine by UKGC there goes their license.

Take a read of the link a couple of posts back..
I explains the whole situation with someone based in the UK being unable to recover funds from an EU company.
 

dec2008mcl

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A court request is not a fine by the governing body which is the UKGC. If they didn't pay a fine by UKGC there goes their license.

Take a read of the link a couple of posts back..
I explains the whole situation with someone based in the UK being unable to recover funds from an EU company.
A court request? Are you high? Take a chance, do what I said and see the outcome.
 

ads2003uk

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It's ok for you being in N. Ireland as your still protected under EU.
I haven't got the funds to throw away, what with the forthcoming gas hike - something N.Ireland also is except from.

I think I need to move back to Portadown for a few months to save some cash.
 

dec2008mcl

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It's ok for you being in N. Ireland as your still protected under EU.
I haven't got the funds to throw away, what with the forthcoming gas hike - something N.Ireland also is except from.

I think I need to move back to Portadown for a few months to save some cash.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. The eu has fuck all to do with it when they have a uk licence. It doesn’t cost anything to send them a letter of action. At least you’ll see their response.
 

ads2003uk

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You don't seem to understand what myself and previous poster is saying.
Yes I can send a letter before action.
But if they ignore, then that's it.
I can't go to court, as if the court rules in my favour, I can not claim the funds,.so that's a waste of money.
UKGC can not force a a casino to pay as a result of a UK courts decision - they are impartial, and rely on ADR process not court process for resolution.
 

dec2008mcl

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Firstly the uk courts sit above the gambling commission and would have to abide by their ruling, otherwise betfred wouldn’t have paid out the 2 million odd ruled against them. And before you ramble on about an eu company, to get a uk licence they have to abide by uk rules and regulations, slack as they are. UKGC threatening their licence or fining them is a lot more than your few k’s. To say the UKGC is impartial to uk court rulings is laughable if not the stupidest thing that has ever been said.
Secondly be careful of posters on this site, it is full of people working with casinos to put players off any action.
Finally I am done with this thread, you can bring a horse to water and all that.. I wish you luck whichever way you go.
 

ads2003uk

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Now wk 11 with IBAS:

"Your dispute with Videoslots

I confirm receipt of your emails dated 12th and 16th September.

As explained in my email of 28th August, it has been holiday season meaning that staff from both IBAS and betting operators have been on leave. A request for information was made to Videoslots however the member of staff was on leave. I too had to take emergency leave and have only just returned to work to a very high volume of emails. As I stated, cases can become stagnant when staff are on leave.

It has now been 11 weeks since your dispute has been in progress with IBAS. If the IBAS Panel is not in a position to make a robust and fair ruling, they will continue to gather the necessary information in order to help them do so. At times this can go past the average timeframe it takes for a customer to receive an IBAS ruling.

Videoslots responded to the Panel’s latest query however, they had further questions themselves which I have gone back to them on this morning. When I receive their response I will update you with the status and next steps."

I doubt I'll get anything back from IBAS now for quite some time, and will probably end up chasing for an update yet again.

I'm tempted to go back to IBAS and say I'm prepared to settle dispute at 75% + a suitable non wager requirement bonus.
But then again would this seem negative on my behalf?
 

jasonuk

Experienced Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Location
UK
Videoslots responded to the Panel’s latest query however, they had further questions themselves which I have gone back to them on this morning. When I receive their response I will update you with the status and next steps."

I doubt I'll get anything back from IBAS now for quite some time, and will probably end up chasing for an update yet again.

I'm tempted to go back to IBAS and say I'm prepared to settle dispute at 75% + a suitable non wager requirement bonus.
But then again would this seem negative on my behalf?
As you've discovered, this is the slow and steady part of the process. The ADR will continue asking Videoslots all the necessary questions to come to a (hopefully) reasoned answer. While there is no formal time limit to this stage, the emphasis will be on VS to produce the evidence and documentation in a timely manner - failure to do so can be weighed against them.

Based on the ADR guidelines, I would probably wait and see what they come back with first - for the amount in question the result should (but not necessarily will) be binding on the operator if you choose to accept. As a footnote, IBAS quotes 8-12 weeks as their "typical" case time, so hopefully it won't be too much longer.

Any subsequent action (e.g. small claims court) would require the same information anyway, so trying to shortcut that may work against you. Obviously once the ADR has responded then you'll know what options you have available.

Fingers crossed!
 

kierangrayson

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Sep 6, 2022
Location
uk
Must be the same person dealing with your case as it’s all but identically worded to my recent update.
I’m in the same boat waiting for vs to provide further information to them.
I was tempted to approach vs and see if they wanted to negotiate just to get it sorted. My incline is tho that with the time it’s dragging on and the fact that they had been asked for information at least twice, IBAS aren’t happy with something so may ride it out and see what’s concluded rather than testing the water with vs
 

ads2003uk

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Update.. email just received:

"Your dispute with Videoslots
Further to my email of 21st September, I have now received a response from Videoslots in which they state that they are willing to compensate you to the amount of £1,158 as a result of the error. The amount is based on average multipliers which is 36x for Crazy Time.

Please note that the amount offered does not include the goodwill gesture that was previously offered and paid to you.

Should you wish to accept the offer please do let me know and I will communicate this to Videoslots so that they may process it. Should you decline it, your case with IBAS shall continue where the Panel will adjudicate in the fairest manner possible having considered all the information provided by both you and Videoslots."

£1158 isn't even x36, its x30.48.
My stake on bonus was £38 so x36 = £1368

Now I'm going to point this out to them, however my predicament is do I now counter that, as there is always the chance IBAS do not uphold the complainant.

I'm thinking of saying that I am prepared to accept either x60 which is £2280 OR x53 £2014 + £250 non-wager requirement bonus.
 
Last edited:

jasonuk

Experienced Member
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Location
UK
Update.. email just received:

Your dispute with Videoslots
Further to my email of 21st September, I have now received a response from Videoslots in which they state that they are willing to compensate you to the amount of £1,158 as a result of the error. The amount is based on average multipliers which is 36x for Crazy Time.

Please note that the amount offered does not include the goodwill gesture that was previously offered and paid to you.

Should you wish to accept the offer please do let me know and I will communicate this to Videoslots so that they may process it. Should you decline it, your case with IBAS shall continue where the Panel will adjudicate in the fairest manner possible having considered all the information provided by both you and Videoslots.
Well this is a curious development... I'll be intrigued to hear what other members make of this...

Firstly, let's fix their sums... £38 bet at x36 is £1368 not £1158 - also is that inclusive of the stake return (i.e. 36x vs 36:1 = 37x), if not it's £1406.

If they're offering you 36x, I would assume they're trying to play the "you didn't make a decision" card once again - but the value of that game round is 47.6x (15x-25x-100x plus stake), and the value of your decision is 101x. It feels like they're trying to lowball you, but there's no guarantees on what IBAS say at the end of the line - perhaps IBAS could give some more information on why they've made that particular offer?

So the primary options:
  • Accept the (corrected) offer of 36x as final settlement - which means you've received 46x (inclusive of goodwill) of the amount, but forfeit any right to the remaining £2k
  • You could make a counter-offer - e.g. based on EV, the 47.6x EV figure (£1809) for that round - but again if they accept you forfeit any right to the remainder
  • Decline the offer and allow IBAS to adjudicate accordingly - which could be anything from they reject your claim and award nothing (just the previous £380 goodwill) to they find MrVegas at fault and award the full amount. This is non-binding so you'd still have options afterwards - but at your own time and expense.
They've sent it last thing Friday so you've got the weekend to think about it before replying, but obviously we can't make that decision for you, so as "Our Graham" on Blind Date used to say, the choice... is yours...
 
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aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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uk
Well if their willing to cough up, I would now going for the full amount of the bet, its taken a long time to get thus far.

Choose wisely though)
 

ads2003uk

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So the primary options:
  • Accept the (corrected) offer of 36x as final settlement - which means you've received 46x (inclusive of goodwill) of the amount, but forfeit any right to the remaining £2k
  • You could make a counter-offer - e.g. based on EV, the 47.6x EV figure (£1809) for that round - but again if they accept you forfeit any right to the remainder
  • Decline the offer and allow IBAS to adjudicate accordingly - which could be anything from they reject your claim and award nothing (just the previous £380 goodwill) to they find MrVegas at fault and award the full amount. This is non-binding so you'd still have options afterwards - but at your own time and expense.
They've sent it last thing Friday so you've got the weekend to think about it before replying, but obviously we can't make that decision for you, so as "Our Graham" on Blind Date used to say, the choice... is yours...
I've thought about this past 24hrs and I'm going to go back with a counter offer.
Here a snipit of what I'm intending to send them (based on information you have provided me)

Point out the calculation error and how they are also not including the addition £38 return stake. (every little helps);
Detail the game round average of x47.7 for my impacted bonus round
Back up that both these figures are sill too low by referencing "Tracksino.com" which shows a current monthly average of x54
Provide two counter offers based on the information which I have available and the minisule amount of information Videoslots have provided.
Point out that my NET spend prior to settlement is -£8,569

My two counter offers are both are £2,500 in value:
1) Withdrawable / playable funds £2500 (x65.8)
2) Withdrawable / playable funds £2000 + £500 wager free bonus to be used across the site. (x52.6 + £500)

If option 1 I do still intend on doing a little low stakes bonus hunt (not on live games) & record it just in case.

Any advice, recommendations are welcomed
 

jasonuk

Experienced Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Location
UK
Point out the calculation error and how they are also not including the addition £38 return stake. (every little helps);
For clarity - the first part is a calculation error - I don't know the theoretical EV of the feature so it was an open question whether it includes stake returned or not - good to get it clarified either way whether it's 36x or 36:1/37x as game providers and casinos alike use the two interchangeably and often get it wrong.

Back up that both these figures are sill too low by referencing "Tracksino.com" which shows a current monthly average of x54
This will include top box multipliers, which wouldn't apply in this case. 36x or 36:1/37x sounds plausible given it's roughly equivalent to a 40 (41x) on a traditional money wheel - but with higher volatility. For note, the TRTP of Crazy Time (the bonus feature) is 94.41%, which would mean a theoretical average (including all top box modifiers) of 50.98x for a 54-segment wheel.

If you make a counter-offer, I'd include the calculation and your thought process so there's less room for them to argue - the feature awarded 15, 25 and 100 segments - which pay 16x, 26x and 101x respectively, 143x/3 is 47.6666x. At £38 stake this is £1,811.33 returned.

It obviously sucks that 46x-47x/57.7x is not 101x, but our hesitation is that they somehow find a "malfunction voids pays and plays" argument and turn around and stick two fingers up at you (although more plausible that they void subsequent decisions and award you 36x/37x or 47.6x anyway, or of course award the 101x in full). As @aceking123 mentions it's taken a long time - because as you've probably realised, it's a £4k game of bluff at this point...

Good luck!
 

jasonuk

Experienced Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Location
UK
You always must include your stake return this is 100% online.
It will always come down to the game rules - in the case of Evolution the feature pays 100x but awards stake returned on top (hence 101x) but the discount Playtech version doesn't, the 100x feature is literally 100x.

This has caused some serious (and expensive!) headaches in the past, particularly around the use of table terminology - where providers have carelessly interchanged 8 for 1 (stake not returned, so 8x) with 8 to 1 (stake returned, so 9x) and introduced a 10% RTP discrepancy in the game. Unfortunately for the game provider, the game rules are gospel...
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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uk
Yes evolution does return stake in this £38, would be included on win. I know there are different settings like allow winning bet to stay, but standard configuration always gives the stake back.
 

ads2003uk

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I've pulled the stats for the last year for crazy time bonus round.
My god, I honestly didn't realise how poor they are, and that you are really reliant on the top slot dropping >X10 or a couple of Doubles.

Highest avg (x1250, x1250, x2500) is x2500*
Lowest avg (x10, x10, x20) is x13.33
For the last 12mths avg = x50.69

*Twice in last 12mths.

Email has just been sent back to IBAS, with the download of last 12mths, screenshots of current months AVG (x53), and my settlement offer £2500 cash or £2000 cash & £500 wager free bonus.
 

Siohmy

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Aug 9, 2012
Location
Blighty
I've pulled the stats for the last year for crazy time bonus round.
My god, I honestly didn't realise how poor they are, and that you are really reliant on the top slot dropping >X10 or a couple of Doubles.

Highest avg (x1250, x1250, x2500) is x2500*
Lowest avg (x10, x10, x20) is x13.33
For the last 12mths avg = x50.69

*Twice in last 12mths.

Email has just been sent back to IBAS, with the download of last 12mths, screenshots of current months AVG (x53), and my settlement offer £2500 cash or £2000 cash & £500 wager free bonus.
A bit off topic but isn’t that 12 month average pretty much bang on %age? It’s 1 in 54 to hit CT bonus I believe so 53/1. With the 94.4% RTP you should expect to get back an average of just shy of 51x including stake each CT hit. Most are likely to be around the 10-50x range.

Edit. Sorry just realised you were calculating what the offer from VS should be. Your post seemed surprised that CT payout was “poor”.
 

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