More BS from Inetbet!!

[whitespade]

Well on a brighter note, I was so on tilt Monday morning after iNetBet confiscated my winnings that I reversed a withdrawal that I had pending at Jackpot Capital. I probably wouldn't have done this because I always ended up losing everything in the past. But this time it worked out well. Won a few hundred more and was able to cashout a little over a grand.

That was from a $50 deposit. And Yes I claimed a bonus. And NO I did not re-read their T&Cs before I deposited. Nor have I ever re-read them since I started playing there.

Unfortunatly for iNetBet they probably would have gotten a large chunk of that money. But Nah. Nope. Not anymore. I figured that most people in this forum would disagree with me on this issue but I will always feel that I got shafted big time on this one.

How fitting that the one time that I have some decent luck there and finally beat a playthrough with a decent amount left to cash out is the one time they can keep my winnings. Although, cashing out $750 really isn't all that great considering that I made two other deposits besides the "tasty trio" for a total of like $250 last weekend and was already down close to three grand there before that.

Well, as most of us know, bad relationships almost always end in disaster.

Congrats to Jackpot Capital and Intertops Red. They now will be getting all of my monthly iNetBet allowances from now on. Always considered them to be FAR superior to iNetBet in every way anyways (except for bonus WRs).

And oh yeah, I use coupons for many of my deposits at Intertops also. And I NO never re-read their T&Cs. Except for one time when they made a very visible post saying "please read the T&Cs for this promomotion since some of the terms may have changed."

I wonder if inetbet ever bends rules for their biggest players or whales?!?

Good question. I doubt it though. That would be going against their strictly enforced "the customer is never right" policy.



Ok. Thats all from me on this BS. Rant over.

GOOD LUCK EVERYBODY!

 

[AudiManinBoro]

It doesnt change the one simple fact. People CAN be daft yes, people can make mistakes yes, but inetbet still stands to lose out more than what this customer does. This customer has a multitude of places he can play at and deposit and spend his money and this customer has now just moved his business elsewhere and inetbet will never see another penny from him.
Even tho they were right. Totally. Undeniably. Inet still loses.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It doesnt change the one simple fact. People CAN be daft yes, people can make mistakes yes, but inetbet still stands to lose out more than what this customer does. This customer has a multitude of places he can play at and deposit and spend his money and this customer has now just moved his business elsewhere and inetbet will never see another penny from him.
Even tho they were right. Totally. Undeniably. Inet still loses.

Exactly, and the casino should always be looking to protect players from their own "daftness" by making the system as foolproof as possible.

Relying all the time on players reading and re-reading the terms is always going to leave them open to a situation where a player is daft enough to make a mistake serious enough to have their winnings confiscated. Casinos seem to think that having winnings confiscated is a "minor inconvenience" for players, and that they should just "get over it", and not be so daft next time.

They should see it from the PLAYERS point of view. Players EXPECT to lose, so a win is a nice treat. It is therefore a very BIG deal when they are confiscated after a couple of days of expectation that they will be paid. It dents the trust between player and casino, even IF it can be shown that the player was a bit daft in the heat of the moment, and broke the rules as a result.

Currently, the industry needs to BUILD trust, it has been severely dented by the antics of their less honest members, which has reflected badly on the WHOLE industry because there is the impression that the rogues are just being allowed to "get on with it", whilst software suppliers and licencing juristictions look the other way whilst raking in the fees.

 

[all4greed]

I was looking for a certain customer service statement, but this one is good:

"There is only one boss. The customer.
And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down,
simply by spending his money somewhere else."
Sam Walton

 

[Rusty]

It is our responsibility to read the terms EVERY time we take a promotion. Threads like this tend to highlight this.

It also highlights a casino that changes them from time to time.

But it did not change them mid promotion, I would not defend that.

And I invite anyone that breached the terms and lost to ask for a return of their deposit.

OK I'm in rant mode now and this is aimed at everyone who thinks Inet are 100% right.

So the T&C's were not changed now?
Didn't Inet themselves say they changed them for clarities sake?
Obviously someone would of still been playing the promotion under the previous t&c's when they were changed if this is the case.

Perhaps if the bonus codes changed when the change to the T&C's was made it would be more acceptable and there would be less room for obfuscation otherwise a promotion should either run its course without any changes or in extreme circumstances be cancelled by the Casino.
They can always start a new promo with new T&C's.

It has nothing to do with just making players responsible for scanning the T&C's for a word change here or there if those T&C's are changed thereafter without notification.

I am replying to your post Jas but I am directing this at VWM and everyone else who sees no problem here - you are not seeing the big picture.
Not all Casinos are as trustworthy as you seem think Inetbet are and if it is seen as right for an accredited casino to change T&C's of bonuses without player notification and deny winnings on the strength of it then expect the rogues to be rubbing their hands with glee.

Under that premise I could write T&C's and change a single word in a 20 paragraph T&C altering things dramatically in my favour and you could read it twice and you wouldn't even know it.

If you think this is just me going off on one then why do you think there are such laws concerning contract law?
Why under a UKGC license is this not acceptable practice?

General ‘fair and open’ provisions
Licensees must satisfy themselves that the terms on which gambling is offered are not unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and, where applicable, meet the reasonableness test under the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. An accurate summary of the contractual terms on which gambling is offered must be made available to customers and set out in plain and intelligible language.Customers must be notified of changes to terms before they come into effect.

Have you all been brainwashed overnight or are we now so desensitised by so many casino scams that this sort of thing is now acceptable?

:sob:

 

[Nifty29]

So the T&C's were not changed now?
Didn't Inet themselves say they changed them for clarities sake?
Obviously someone would of still been playing the promotion under the previous t&c's when they were changed if this is the case.

The only obvious thing here is that that didnt read the thread properly.

The promotion was a weekend promotion.

The terms were not changed during the promotion period (i.e. the weekend) - they were changed before the commencement of the next promotion period. So, it is impossible for someone still to be playing under the old terms.

Perhaps if the bonus codes changed when the change to the T&C's was made it would be more acceptable and there would be less room for obfuscation otherwise a promotion should either run its course without any changes or in extreme circumstances be cancelled by the Casino.
They can always start a new promo with new T&C's.

The promotion did run it's course the previous weekend. The new weekend promotion included a slightly different deposit requirement.....which incidentally it seems only one CM member neglected to notice.

Are you saying that even if 99.9% of players didnt have a problem (which seems to be the case here), then the casino should make wholesale changes just for the other 0.1%?? Sheesh. What next? Should casinos remind players to go to the bathroom every 30 mins as well??

It has nothing to do with just making players responsible for scanning the T&C's for a word change here or there if those T&C's are changed thereafter without notification.

Yes it does. I posted before the 3 different links that were provided to the terms for that promotion. It was only one or two lines also, and it was not in small print. As I said, everyone else seemed to notice it OK.

I am replying to your post Jas but I am directing this at VWM and everyone else who sees no problem here - you are not seeing the big picture.
Not all Casinos are as trustworthy as you seem think Inetbet are and if it is seen as right for an accredited casino to change T&C's of bonuses without player notification and deny winnings on the strength of it then expect the rogues to be rubbing their hands with glee.
Under that premise I could write T&C's and change a single word in a 20 paragraph T&C altering things dramatically in my favour and you could read it twice and you wouldn't even know it.

We are not talking about 20 pages of terms or even 1 for that matter - that is completely different. The terms were simple and concise and clearly communicated to the player. You are drawing a ridiculously long bow here.

An accurate summary of the contractual terms on which gambling is offered must be made available to customers and set out in plain and intelligible language.Customers must be notified of changes to terms before they come into effect.

It was - go check out the links yourself. You cant get much plainer than that!!

Geez Rusty I dont know what Inetbet did to you in the past but you really seem to have it in for them.

 

[Rusty]

I am not going to respond to every hypothetical regarding this case so I will just cut to the chase.
Here is your quote Nifty after whitespade complained his withdrawal was refused due to a change in T&C's

Even if they did change them (and Im pretty sure they didnt), it is up to you to check the terms before you claim the promotion. Don't blame others for your own mistake.

This is a perfect example of what I am getting at.
You are saying that even if the Casino changed the T&C's that is ok because it is purely the players responsibility to keep checking them.
No it is not!

Also it is pertinent to point out that under the original T&C's whitespades withdrawal request would of been accepted. Did Inetbet even consider this point or were they just happy to be able to refuse his winnings?

Just because in this case there may not be intent on Inets part to set player traps (Though I certainly would not bet against that) the fact is other casinos may not be so obliging, especially when they see naive players stating publicly that changing T&C's without notifying players is just fine and dandy.

Now, If the old promotion was over and a new one started then as long as it was clear that this was a different promotion (Different name, different rules, and this clearly stated - did that happen?) then no worries but ultimately this is about whether a casino should be legitimately allowed to change their T&C's (if that runs weekend to weekend it is still the same promotion) without notifying the player of these changes.

As for me having a grudge against Inet, not at all, this just happens to be an Inetbet thread and Inetbet happen to be an accredited casino - I am making a general statement regarding not just bonus T&C's but T&C's in general, not just taking aim at Inetbet - we need a tightening of standards not a slipping.

 

[iNetBet Promos]

Hi Everyone,

Just to clarify one point here, in case there are any misconceptions, the rules of an ongoing promotion were not changed.

Yes we have had promotions headed "weekend" promotions in the past but they only last for just that a weekend. They are also not always the same. Sometimes for example it's a Tasty Trio - other times it may be a Paycheck Special.

In this particular case it was a brand new promotion on new dates, with new codes, and clearer rules.

So players were informed in full of any changes compared to a previous promotion. Anyone who chose to take part could not possibly have seen and claimed the coupon code without having the rules in front of them on their screen. These are displayed just below the coupon code itself and not elsewhere i.e the bottom of the page.

Just thought I should clear that up before we start being led down a different tangent here.

Have a great weekend all.

Best Regards
iNetBet Promos

 

[Nifty29]

Hi Everyone,

Just to clarify one point here, in case there are any misconceptions, the rules of an ongoing promotion were not changed.

Yes we have had promotions headed "weekend" promotions in the past but they only last for just that a weekend. They are also not always the same. Sometimes for example it's a Tasty Trio - other times it may be a Paycheck Special.

In this particular case it was a brand new promotion on new dates, with new codes, and clearer rules.

So players were informed in full of any changes compared to a previous promotion. Anyone who chose to take part could not possibly have seen and claimed the coupon code without having the rules in front of them on their screen. These are displayed just below the coupon code itself and not elsewhere i.e the bottom of the page.

Just thought I should clear that up before we start being led down a different tangent here.

Have a great weekend all.

Best Regards
iNetBet Promos

Very pertinent points highlighted above....which is why almost nobody had any issues with it. I looked at the link when I received the original email and read the rules right away - as Inetbet says they were impossible to miss (unless of course you were ignoring everything except the coupon code). New codes = new promotion = new rules. I still do not see where Inetbet were trying to 'trick' anyone.

Could the casino have bent the rules? Yes. Should the casino have bent the rules? IMO No. The minute you do that for a $10 mistake, then you have to do it for $20 mistakes etc etc etc until you may as well not have rules at all.

Whether the casino should have accomodated the OP or not is a totally seperate matter and should not be confused with the basic rule of thumb - always check the terms for any bonus you are going to take.

The OP might well have dumped Inetbet as a result, but IMO they are placing blame where it does not belong and are missing out on one of the few casinos these days that pay within 24 hours, have decent WR and bonuses, and a monthly managers' cashback. The only thing they lack is Live Chat, but Im happy to sacrifice that for not having to worry when I make a withdrawal.

 

[whitespade]

I really didn't want to waste any more time with this but now I feel that I have to.

Just to clarify one point here, in case there are any misconceptions, the rules of an ongoing promotion were not changed.

In this particular case it was a brand new promotion on new dates, with new codes, and clearer rules.

So players were informed in full of any changes compared to a previous promotion.

Wow. Seriously? Are you kidding me? These statements show me that iNetBet Promos is not very knowledgeable about iNetBet promotions. To say that this was/is a brand new promotion is ridiculous and very misleading.

Just to clarify things for iNetBet Promos: the "Tasty Trio" promotion has been the weekend promotion for the VAST majority of weekends for quite some time now- making it an ongoing promotion.

Original rules (violated by the player who started this thread):

Deposits #2 and #3 must not be larger than deposit #1.

Current rules (violated by me):

Deposit #2 must not be larger than deposit #1.
Deposit #3 must not be larger than deposit #2.


Everything else about this promo was/is exactly the same: same name, same page layout, etc, etc, etc. (except, of course, for the codes themselves, and qualifying dates which are always different). There is/was nothing to make a regular player suspect that were playing under new terms- unless they re-read the terms (which I have already admitted I did not do).


Furthermore, considering the very nature of this promotion, I feel that iNetBet should have at least made some attempt to alert their regular players that the rules had changed.

First of all, no player in their right mind is going to want to get to the point were they have to claim the 3rd coupon.

Sure, someone could get extremely lucky and win with coupon #1 on Fri., then win with coupon #2 on Sat., and claim coupon #3 on Sun. iNetBet definitely processes withdrawals fast enough to make this possible. But I would say that the odds of this happening would be pretty astronomical.

A more likely scenario would be that a player wins with only one of the first two coupons, has their withdrawal processed, and then claims coupon #3.


However, the MOST likely scenario and exactly what happened in my situation would be: player busts out on the first coupons, player (now frustrated) then quickly clicks on the scrolling message board, quickly copys the 3rd code from the promo page, pastes it in the cashier, and proceeds to make their deposit. All the while thinking that they are playing under the same set of rules that they were playing under the last time that they participated in the promotion. Since, again, there was NO reason for them to think otherwise.


Sure, I could have possibly been the only player who made this mistake. But at the same time- there could have been other players, perhaps maybe even many other players (who do not visit this forum) who made the same mistake and they/we will never even know because they did not try to cash out. Just as I probably STILL wouldn't be aware of the of new rules.




I'm sorry but I feel very strongly that it should be the responsibility and obligation of ANY casino to make their players realize that the terms of an ongoing promotion have changed. Whether it be posting a statement on the promotion page or, better yet, changing the name of the promotion (as most casinos do). Something- anything- should be done to alert regular players that the rules have changed.

For the life of me- I cannot understand how someone could disagree with me on that.

 

[Pinababy69]

For the life of me- I cannot understand how someone could disagree with me on that.

And for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone could go to the trouble of loading a page to get the coupon code necessary to claim the bonus...read the code, copy it down but then NEGLECT to read the six or so short lines of terms that were printed DIRECTLY under each code.

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

And Nifty, I completely agree with you. To each his own absolutely....but this will continue to be my casino of choice for the support I receive, the bonuses on almost every deposit I make with reasonable WR, and most important the no hassle cashouts 365 days a year. Last year I remember playing on Christmas Eve, cashing out and waking up Xmas morning to my cashout in my MB account. That's the way a casino should operate. None of this "the cashier doesn't work on weekends or holidays" bullshit. Online casinos are a 24/7 business, and as such....ALL aspects of their operation should be functional at all times.

I can also live without live chat. I think in ten years of playing at Inet, that has been an issue maybe two or three times. I'm willing to live with that, and sacrifice the live support, to retain the other things mentioned. I find support at the majority of casinos (with exceptions of course) to be useless anyway. Your issue almost always has to be escalated to some other department, and you end up waiting for resolution anyway.

Like I said, to each his own. Some people don't mind waiting a week or two to get their money when they win. I refuse to do that.

 

[whitespade]

And for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone could go to the trouble of loading a page to get the coupon code necessary to claim the bonus...read the code, copy it down but then NEGLECT to read the six or so short lines of terms that were printed DIRECTLY under each code.

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, Pinababy, since you have been member here since 2004, you are a much more experienced online gambler than me. You probably handle bad sessions much better than I do and don't act as impulsively. We live and learn

 

[jod5413]

And for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone could go to the trouble of loading a page to get the coupon code necessary to claim the bonus...read the code, copy it down but then NEGLECT to read the six or so short lines of terms that were printed DIRECTLY under each code.

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

And Nifty, I completely agree with you. To each his own absolutely....but this will continue to be my casino of choice for the support I receive, the bonuses on almost every deposit I make with reasonable WR, and most important the no hassle cashouts 365 days a year. Last year I remember playing on Christmas Eve, cashing out and waking up Xmas morning to my cashout in my MB account. That's the way a casino should operate. None of this "the cashier doesn't work on weekends or holidays" bullshit. Online casinos are a 24/7 business, and as such....ALL aspects of their operation should be functional at all times.

I can also live without live chat. I think in ten years of playing at Inet, that has been an issue maybe two or three times. I'm willing to live with that, and sacrifice the live support, to retain the other things mentioned. I find support at the majority of casinos (with exceptions of course) to be useless anyway. Your issue almost always has to be escalated to some other department, and you end up waiting for resolution anyway.

Like I said, to each his own. Some people don't mind waiting a week or two to get their money when they win. I refuse to do that.

OH MY GAWD!!!!!!! Pinababy, you should be put on a pedestal for making such a common sense post explaining how you feel. So many of us feel the same way but don't bother posting, it is like beating a dead horse.

I can not take exception to a single word you wrote.

Well, Pinababy, since you have been member here since 2004, you are a much more experienced online gambler than me. You probably handle bad sessions much better than I do and don't act as impulsively. We live and learn

Nah, a gambler is a gambler. We all try to win the "big one". We do act impulsively, we rant and we rave in the privacy of our own homes, and we use a fine tooth comb to go through the rules to make sure "they" can't put one over on "us"!!!

 

[Pinababy69]

Well, Pinababy, since you have been member here since 2004, you are a much more experienced online gambler than me. You probably handle bad sessions much better than I do and don't act as impulsively. We live and learn

Oh trust me Whitespade, I get frustrated as hell sometimes. When I feel like that, I know it's time for a break for me.....from gambling I mean. And I usually find that if I do take a break for a couple weeks or more...when I come back, I feel refreshed, and alot of the time, my luck has turned a bit as well. If I were someone who played every day, or more than once a week, I'd probably lose my mind, lol. Because you are going to lose the majority of the time.

But...the live and learn thing? So true, and I've learned the hard way as well, in some cases.

Few years ago, I used to play at ClubWorld as well as Inetbet, just for some variety. Of course, I ASSUMED (bad bad Pina, lol) that the terms for comp points was the same as Inetbet. Wrong!! They had a 10X max cashout rule in place, at that time. It has since been changed, and there is no longer a max cashout in place when you redeem your comp points.

But the point is...that one night, I redeemed 1100 points for $11 and proceeded to turn that into 1K. I couldn't lose, no matter what game I played. Don't ever remember having a run like that on RTG before or since. So I initiate my 1K withdrawal....and then for some reason after doing that, I decided to read the terms. You guessed it....I found the term stipulating that comp pts were subject to a 10X max cashout. In my case....$110.

I asked the manager at the time if they would at least compromise with me, as I'm pretty sure that about 70% of my points had been earned from deposits...not freebies or bonuses. But no, no exceptions. I got my $110 withdrawal and the other $890 was voided.

I now understand the not making exceptions thing...as if they had done it for me, they would have to do it for others. I did start a thread on here, as I felt it was a horrible term for an accredited casino. Comp points are earned, not given...and as such, I felt that you shouldn't be limited in how much you can win.

Most agreed with me, and as a result, CW did change the term...which is great for the players.

I haven't really played there since, as it sort of turned me off...so I can also understand where you are coming from as well. People should only play where they are 100% comfortable, and at a casino that offers the services they personally need. And that doesn't mean I think that CW are a bad casino...just not for me.

Point of this long ramble is....ever since that happened, I now religiously read the terms for all promos/bonuses, regardless if the casino is one I am comfortable with, or have played at for years. It's also about that time I completely limited my play to one RTG, one MG and 3Dice.

So as you said...it is always a learning experience. Sometimes through our own experiences, sometimes through those of others.

 

[Rusty]

Well, Pinababy, since you have been member here since 2004, you are a much more experienced online gambler than me. You probably handle bad sessions much better than I do and don't act as impulsively. We live and learn

Your post is perfectly legitimate and you are right that players should be notified of any changes to the T&C's.
Why some posters can not see the wood for the trees here I have no idea. Perhaps they are confusing the general point being made with an attack on their beloved Inetbet? We all know love is blind.

The truth is that it is arguable whether the T&C's were changed of the same promotion in this instance and for what reason.
It should however be obvious to anyone, and I mean anyone, that T&C's should not be changed without the player being notified.

If it is not obvious then they must be too ignorant/arrogant to see why the need existed for the same principle to be applied in contract law or even more relevantly, the same principle applied by the most respected remote licensing authority there is (IMO).
Maybe I should state that add infinitum because it is being conveniently ignored or I am just not getting its relevance through.

In fact it is even more important these principles and practices of fairness in contracts are followed in the world of remote gaming because the player has no say in how the contract is drawn up and they are so easily changed.

I am really struggling to make this any clearer and than I already have, will this help?

Who decides on a change to T&C's , the player or the casino?
Who likely benefits from a change to T&C's, the player or the casino?
Who decides on how they will be enforced, the player or the casino?
Who dictates the rules within the T&C's, the player or the casino?
So
WHO should be most accountable and therefore bear most responsibility for the fairness and proper implementation of these T&C's?

The player? Come on!

The player certainly has a responsibility to read and follow the T&C's but such T&C's should be fair, clear and easy to understand, fairly applied and above all go unchanged without prior notification to those operating under the said T&C's.
If these conditions are met then fine, I have no problem with winnings removed because of a breach of T&C's.

But if not why would players subscribe to the laws of the jungle when they are the prey?

All the Casino has to do is write a header stating the T&C's had been changed and highlighting these changes - it would take the casino about 10 seconds.
So why if the casino is so customer oriented would it not bother to follow this simple rule and save its customers the trouble of having to read through the T&C's every time?

Same thing, it is easy to implement a system where bonuses are denied for incorrect deposit amounts.
Why even have a convoluted system in the first place?

All answers on a postcard to, "banging my head against a brick wall at the trees in the wood."

I think it may be of benefit for those wishing to reply to take a step back first and view this as a general issue rather than vindicating Inetbet.
To give that statement some focus I will make a poll, outside of this thread so that the issue is separated from Inetbet, with the votes made public.
I especially urge all who have participated in this thread to vote as
I can only think that posters are misunderstanding what is being represented as fair and unfair practice.
If not I want to know who stands where and more importantly what if anything they do stand for.

PS.
It is obviously good practice and excellent advice for players to read T&C's thoroughly but I don't think that any player with a grievance about ambiguous or misunderstood or changed T&C's etc should be dismissed simply because others consider themselves too smart or diligent to fall into the same trap.
We are not all born equal and none of us retain our mental or physical powers through age - there comes a time when we all need someone looking out for us.
That never applied more than in this industry.

 

[Pinababy69]

Rusty I wouldn't care if it was Inetbet or Virtual Casino. If a player loads a page (from an email containing a link to that page), reads a coupon code and probably copies it down, but DOESN'T BOTHER to read the six SHORT lines of text directly relative to that coupon which are printed DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH (in this particular case about 42 words/numbers total)....seriously, that is a casino's fault?

Wow, some of you need babysitters I think. Maybe someone to tell you when to hit spin, when to up or lower your bet, someone to tell you when you've played enough, when it's time for bed, etc.

If we were talking about a complicated promo or numerous changes to the general T&C's where a player had to pore through pages of legal mumbo jumbo, or perhaps click through six different links to get to the terms of a specific promo....I would probably agree with you. But using a code that is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain without reading the terms? Unless of course you DELIBERATELY ignore them. Or maybe you are just too lazy or ignorant.

In re: which casino...as I've said before I've even made posts in Virtual threads regarding T&C's and told people that they should have read them before they played. But do I cut Inetbet a bit more slack than a shithole? You bet I do. Because they don't have a history of non payment to players, they don't use bullshit bonus abuse excuses to deny winnings, they pay FAST, their CS (in personal experience) is okay, their bonuses and WR are more than fair (by industry standards), and I always feel I get a fair game there (yeah, I'm still of the mind that the major software providers are fair, so shoot me).

I'm done with this. If people are too lazy or too stupid to read the terms every single time they take a bonus, not my problem. And not the casino's either. Just like Whitespade said...live and learn. Expensive lesson..but a lesson nonetheless.

 

[Nifty29]

The truth is that it is arguable whether the T&C's were changed of the same promotion in this instance and for what reason.

Only in your mind.

New coupon codes + new dates = New promotion.

Simple.

It should however be obvious to anyone, and I mean anyone, that T&C's should not be changed without the player being notified.

If the player is participating in an exisiting promotion - but they were not. It was a new promotion.

If it is not obvious then they must be too ignorant/arrogant to see why the need existed for the same principle to be applied in contract law or even more relevantly, the same principle applied by the most respected remote licensing authority there is (IMO).
Maybe I should state that add infinitum because it is being conveniently ignored or I am just not getting its relevance through.

I'm afraid that the contract law you talk about here applies only to changes of the terms and conditions of exisiting contracts. E.G. All withdrawals now cost $25, players from Australia now have to wager double on all bonuses, anyone betting more than 20% of their bonus on one wager will have their withdrawal denied etc etc.

The examples above would have formed part of the terms and conditions of the contract the player entered into when they created their account. It has nothing to do with a bonus being offered somewhere down the track. In fact, you will find that all T&Cs of online casinos state that these general rules apply in addition to any terms attached to individual promotions.

The only contract a player has made before they redeem a coupon is the one I described above.

Once a player redeems a coupon they are entering a new and totally seperate contract that they will adhere to the terms and conditions attached to that individual coupon... and it is here that your theory falls apart, because the casino has no obligation to highlight the difference between that promotion and any other promotion - it is the responsibility of the player to read and accept the terms for that individual bonus.

Do not confuse this issue with changing general terms of all bonuses or any other general term - on that issue I am in agreement. Any variations to the original contract should be advised, but as I said this is a seperate contract altogether and as long as the casino provides the terms for each contract (i.e. coupon) then the casino has fulfilled its obligations (which inetbet did on this occasion).

The only obligation remaining is for the player to be aware of the terms of each coupon (i.e. contract) before they accept it.

 

[betpartners]

Players have responsibilities and that is to ensure that they are fully aware of what they are doing with their very own money, at the same time the casino has a responsibility to make sure that the player is given adequate and easily accessible info, from what i can see here the casino has fullfiled that obligation while the players did not.

I also see analogies in this thread from shops to offline casinos and bookies and there does appear to be a misconception, especially in regards to betting shops,

In all betting shops there are terms and conditions, they are posted on the walls, they highlight things like max withdrawals etc.

In addition on certain betting slips on the back they have in tiny little letters terms and conditions relating to a specific type of bet.

Be assured very few players ever walk in to a betting shop and read these terms, they just head to the betting slip and place their bet, many a time someone has won over £1/2 million only to find out they can only take out a max £200k or so.

Now here are a couple of scenarios for you to ponder before you take it as a given that offline offers more protection etc for the player.

A player walks in to a betting shop, he places an accumulator/parlay, he has say 6 horses or teams, the first 5 come in and his winnings are £210k, the max payout is £200k.

Now would the bookies stop that accumulator there and payout the player, the answer is hell no, the 6th leg of the parlay/accumulator must be played, even though the player cannot possible win anymore money, after the 5th leg he was already at the max, free play or what

Absolutely no player protection there.

Second scenario, you walk in to a betting shop and place a £1000 bet on a horse called Expedition

Now in the race there are two horses with the name expedition, one is called expedition lighting and one is called expedition thunder.

Now the bookies has no idea what expedition the punter was refering to and so will split the stakes, thats means £500 on each horse.

Now the punter meant Expedition lightning and when that horse lost he throws his betting slip away and goes on his way, the winner of the race was in fact Expedition Thunder and therefore the player unbeknown to him actually has a winning bet.

The bookies is under no obligation to inform the player of this, neither will he inform the player, the betting slip just goes in to a pile of unclaimed bets and that is it and i can tell you from experience having worked in betting shops, there is a long pile of these unclaimed bets.

Now these are bookies and not offline casinos, i accept that, but the point is this, that offline certainly within betting shops the onus is on the player to be responsible for his own bets, to understand the rules and if not they can be free played or not even know they have a winning bet.

Also any bets taken in error and voided are again just piled up, the offline bookies will not chase the players and say here you go, some money for you as your last bet was void.

I see so many comments about betting offline and that the bookies will not do this or that when in fact the truth is that the bookies offline give less protection and that the player is at a bigger disadvantage than online.

No forums to complain to offline, no accounts to log in to check historical bets and spins or whatever, no money automatically put in to your account when a bet is split and so on.

Allowing players to abdicate their own responsibility is unfair on the casinos, especially when we hold the casinos to account over the tiniest of mistakes, this does not mean that casinos can play games like changing terms and conditions or hiding them out the way.

It is a two way street, not a one way street in either direction

 

[AudiManinBoro]

All your points are absolutely valid. The customer is wrong. He made a mistake. Its irrefutable. However, the only one REAL issue that remains here of any real consequence is the affect things like this has on your business.

Inetbet is a business and as a business you would think keeping customers would be number one priority. This is the case in my business and im sure most others who value keeping their customer base.
The firm i work for manufactures chemicals for the oil industry and the amount of times we have replaced product for customers even tho the customer was in error in asking for something other than what they actually wanted is too numerous to count. Human error. It happens, either through sheer stupidity or sheer folly. Should my firm say piss off customer YOU made the mistake, live with it? Or should we do what in fact we do do, and thats appease the customer, put right for them a problem even tho it isnt our fault? If the question in matter is a huge issue i.e hundreds of thousands of pounds, then i could understand reluctance. If its a question of a small problem easily fixed or ignored then no.

Keeping the customer is more important to most firms than sticking their nose up in the air, sniffing loudly and proclaiming ` sorry you ****** up, not our fault`

Inetbet must have so many customers that they must feel they can take this approach.

I guess thats why places like Clubworld are growing and expanding and now have over several casinos in their proftfolios while inetbet has erm one, has no growth, never expanded and cant even offer the most basic of basics like live chat.

 

[betpartners]

Agreed, customer service is integral to any business and how that is handled can reflect on your future growth, though there are exceptions, RyanAir springs to mind, worst customer service in the history of customer service and yet they continue to grow, go figure.

But back on point.

We have no idea really how often Inetbet have let this sort of thing go, how many times that they have made ex gratia payments, we have no idea either what directives have been sent down from head office, for all we know they could have done an audit and realised they had let X amount go and decided enough is enough, we simply do not know.

By the same token we do not know if they have ever done an ex gratia payment, or if this is some little man in a suit deciding off his own back or if this is standard operating procedure with them, point is to make assumptions based on lack of info is no way to judge a situation.

One thing i do know is that if any business makes a habit of paying out money that has contravened the rules they will make a rod for their own back, if they do it for one, why not the other will be the cry and if they then do it for all the others as well then it will be other players that pay the price.

It does not matter if it is $4 or $400, if you pay out all the time when you did not have to then that money has to come from somewhere, and more often than not it comes from other sources and not the bottom line, it could come from the bonus funding, it could come from money to be spent on rewards and so forth.

And Inetbet would not be the first and certainly not the last to make other customers pay for those customers that "got away with it" in fact i would suggest the vast majority of businesses do just that.

Finally Live Chat, while it would be nice it hardly reflects on the business and how it neccasarily treats its players, one of the most admired sportsbooks is Pinnacle (crap to affiliates though) they are rated A+ by SBR and almost any other sportsbook review service, in fact numerous affiliates will promote them even if they will never make money just to provide a service to the players, they are regarded as one of the very best sportsbooks for players and they have no live chat at all.

Point being is that while Live Chat and good customer service should be a basic, it does not follow that without it they are either a poor casino or poor for players,, do they pay on time? are their games fair? do they scam players? that is the real criteria that matters.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

It does not matter if it is $4 or $400, if you pay out all the time when you did not have to then that money has to come from somewhere, and more often than not it comes from other sources and not the bottom line, it could come from the bonus funding, it could come from money to be spent on rewards and so forth.

But surely it does matter in one important way. Casinos win MOST of the time more than 9 out of 10 in my opinion, especially RTG ones. Inetbet ok has saved themselves the cost of making a small withdrawal to a customer yet has lost god knows how much in future deposits. I still know who the loser is here long term.

 

[whitespade]

I just logged into iNet because they are giving out a freebie today. I noticed that on their scrolling message board they now have statements about T&C's after their promo announcements so that players will familiarize themselves with the rules.

So a big thumbs up to them

And actually AudiManinBoro, its not like they are going to lose that much business from me because I was I the verge of seriously reducing my play there because my luck there- for the most part- had always been really shitty. It was becoming a cycle of chasing wins to win back losses- so I really needed to take a break from them anyways.

Who knows, maybe some day in the future I will decide to play there again- at least then I will be able to claim their "returning player" bonus- which has always been on my wish-list. 100%, cashable, only 15x WR (last time I looked ).

 

[chayton]

Maybe someone to tell you when to hit spin, when to up or lower your bet, someone to tell you when you've played enough, when it's time for bed, etc.

I could maybe use someone doing this for me....

 

[Rusty]

Rusty I wouldn't care if it was Inetbet or Virtual Casino. If a player loads a page (from an email containing a link to that page), reads a coupon code and probably copies it down, but DOESN'T BOTHER to read the six SHORT lines of text directly relative to that coupon which are printed DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH (in this particular case about 42 words/numbers total)....seriously, that is a casino's fault?

Wow, some of you need babysitters I think. Maybe someone to tell you when to hit spin, when to up or lower your bet, someone to tell you when you've played enough, when it's time for bed, etc.

If we were talking about a complicated promo or numerous changes to the general T&C's where a player had to pore through pages of legal mumbo jumbo, or perhaps click through six different links to get to the terms of a specific promo....I would probably agree with you. But using a code that is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain without reading the terms? Unless of course you DELIBERATELY ignore them. Or maybe you are just too lazy or ignorant.

In re: which casino...as I've said before I've even made posts in Virtual threads regarding T&C's and told people that they should have read them before they played. But do I cut Inetbet a bit more slack than a shithole? You bet I do. Because they don't have a history of non payment to players, they don't use bullshit bonus abuse excuses to deny winnings, they pay FAST, their CS (in personal experience) is okay, their bonuses and WR are more than fair (by industry standards), and I always feel I get a fair game there (yeah, I'm still of the mind that the major software providers are fair, so shoot me).

I'm done with this. If people are too lazy or too stupid to read the terms every single time they take a bonus, not my problem. And not the casino's either. Just like Whitespade said...live and learn. Expensive lesson..but a lesson nonetheless.

With a solid principle such as T&C's not being changed without notification there should be no exceptions - whether it is just one simple line of T&C's and they are clear to even the dumbest of dumb is irrelevant.
Why?
Because as soon as you make the principle open to subjectivity, such as accounting for things such as their simplicity (when exactly do t&C's become too long, complicated or misleading in this context?) then it becomes unenforceable.
There is absolutely no reason this principle should not be set in stone (A regulatory condition of license)
It takes no extra effort or cost on the Casinos part and it is much fairer to the player.

This principle needs to be separated from a player having a responsibility to read the original T&C's before taking a promotion - of course it is not the casinos fault if a player takes a promotion and breaks the T&C's because they have not understood or read them properly - except where the Casino makes it difficult to find such T&C's or makes the T&C's deliberately misleading or confusing (I accept that this is open to subjective opinion as well but licensing authorities should be the ones to judge on this-the important thing is that it is their licensing regulations)

Wow, some of you need babysitters I think. Maybe someone to tell you when to hit spin, when to up or lower your bet, someone to tell you when you've played enough, when it's time for bed, etc.

Some people do need to be looked out for by people who know they will be taken advantage of - sorry you can't see that.
Actually it should be (and is in some jurisdictions is) a regulation that the player is notified when they have been playing for a particular period of time, this is to try and limit compulsive behaviour.

While you dismiss all such things as a matter laziness or stupidity by the player then you will always be dismissive of the problems many less educated or vulnerable people face.
Good luck in your old age Pina.

 

[Rusty]

Players have responsibilities and that is to ensure that they are fully aware of what they are doing with their very own money, at the same time the casino has a responsibility to make sure that the player is given adequate and easily accessible info, from what i can see here the casino has fullfiled that obligation while the players did not.

I also see analogies in this thread from shops to offline casinos and bookies and there does appear to be a misconception, especially in regards to betting shops,

In all betting shops there are terms and conditions, they are posted on the walls, they highlight things like max withdrawals etc.

In addition on certain betting slips on the back they have in tiny little letters terms and conditions relating to a specific type of bet.

Be assured very few players ever walk in to a betting shop and read these terms, they just head to the betting slip and place their bet, many a time someone has won over £1/2 million only to find out they can only take out a max £200k or so.

Now here are a couple of scenarios for you to ponder before you take it as a given that offline offers more protection etc for the player.

A player walks in to a betting shop, he places an accumulator/parlay, he has say 6 horses or teams, the first 5 come in and his winnings are £210k, the max payout is £200k.

Now would the bookies stop that accumulator there and payout the player, the answer is hell no, the 6th leg of the parlay/accumulator must be played, even though the player cannot possible win anymore money, after the 5th leg he was already at the max, free play or what

Absolutely no player protection there.

Second scenario, you walk in to a betting shop and place a £1000 bet on a horse called Expedition

Now in the race there are two horses with the name expedition, one is called expedition lighting and one is called expedition thunder.

Now the bookies has no idea what expedition the punter was refering to and so will split the stakes, thats means £500 on each horse.

Now the punter meant Expedition lightning and when that horse lost he throws his betting slip away and goes on his way, the winner of the race was in fact Expedition Thunder and therefore the player unbeknown to him actually has a winning bet.

The bookies is under no obligation to inform the player of this, neither will he inform the player, the betting slip just goes in to a pile of unclaimed bets and that is it and i can tell you from experience having worked in betting shops, there is a long pile of these unclaimed bets.

Now these are bookies and not offline casinos, i accept that, but the point is this, that offline certainly within betting shops the onus is on the player to be responsible for his own bets, to understand the rules and if not they can be free played or not even know they have a winning bet.

Also any bets taken in error and voided are again just piled up, the offline bookies will not chase the players and say here you go, some money for you as your last bet was void.

I see so many comments about betting offline and that the bookies will not do this or that when in fact the truth is that the bookies offline give less protection and that the player is at a bigger disadvantage than online.

No forums to complain to offline, no accounts to log in to check historical bets and spins or whatever, no money automatically put in to your account when a bet is split and so on.

Allowing players to abdicate their own responsibility is unfair on the casinos, especially when we hold the casinos to account over the tiniest of mistakes, this does not mean that casinos can play games like changing terms and conditions or hiding them out the way.

It is a two way street, not a one way street in either direction

That is an interesting point well made about high street bookmakers not returning void bets but really all we are doing is comparing negative behaviour, is one worse than the other?
That obviously does not detract from the argument that strict regulation is required for remote gaming so that argument is moot.

Also it is fair to point out that actually a lot of void bets are returned purposely by the bookmaker because often the punter is a regular visitor to a bookmakers and they are on talking terms with the cashier.
Certainly that has been my experience and also in Casinos where I know the staff well.

If it is a city centre bookmaker with a lot of transient trade then it may be the case that little effort is made to return void bets etc but here it would be far more difficult to have a bookmaker go through all the bets and track down out of town strangers to return their money (especially since many will place a bet and leave)
The nature of remote gaming makes this a very simple task though - so should it not be implemented because it is impractical under a set of circumstances they do not operate under?
No, of course not.

Also it is much harder for someone to fob you off when you can confront them face to face - it is all anonymous with online casinos and all they need do is close your account and shut down communication. Not possible on a high street.

There is no misconception that I know of other than remote gaming does not need more regulation.
The facts are that most remote gambling sites operate under regulations that are a joke compared to B&M regulation in most jurisdictions.

There are also many technical reasons why remote gaming needs to be strictly regulated - in fact IMO it needs to be even more strongly regulated than the B&M's and this also ties into how technology can be utilised in ways to defraud and/or deceive players that is not available to B&M's

I am not arguing that B&M's are somehow more scrupulous than their remote counterparts - anyway they all have sportsbooks or remote casinos now so they are one and the same, I am arguing that remote gaming needs to be very carefully regulated because it is currently open to abuse and misuse in ways that B&M's are not.