1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

Microgaming Casinos and Slots RTP

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by ThePOGG, Nov 19, 2012.

    Nov 19, 2012
  1. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    It's been brought to my attention over the weekend by two casinos - independently - who offer a selection of Microgaming slots games and were actively willing to publish the RTP information for these games to boost their rankings that it is written into their contracts with Microgamings that they cannot do this.

    Now as interesting as i find it that Microgaming's is tying the hands of their operators like this what i find more interesting is that there are several casino out there - some of them large and some small - that use a selection of Microgaming slots games and do publish this information. It seems pointless to me to write into a contract a clause to protect this information from release by some of your clients while allowing other clients to release the very same information. Once the cat is out of the bag it's too late, i can't see a purpose to forcing some of your clients to continue holding the empty bag.

    I was wondering if some of the posters here with industry experience had any insight into this?
     
  2. Nov 19, 2012
  3. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    So Microgaming treat the RTP of their slots as confidential information?

    That's pretty shocking IMO.
     
  4. Nov 19, 2012
  5. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    A couple of months ago I wrote directly to MG and asked them a few basic questions about their slots (not even RTP related) and never even got a reply. That p*ssed me off a little TBH. They seems to enjoy secrecy a little too much for my taste.
     
  6. Nov 19, 2012
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Could be BS.

    For a start, the RTP would be the same across the board for the MGS slots, so it would not be possible to compete by trying to appear to offer the best RTP.

    However, the MGS insistence on "holding the empty bag" is plain silly, and creates unnecessary suspicion that there IS something to hide after all, even now that years of discussion and investigation has lead to the almost universal view that the RTP of a Microgaming slot is "set in stone" upon development, and is the same no matter where it is being offered.

    In fact, they DO publish things like "RTP between 96% and 97%" when launching a new slot, and it is something casinos can use, and DO use in some cases, as part of the write up for newsletters promoting the games.

    All known information points to 95% being the "floor" for all MGS slots, with some being just over the 98% mark.

    RTG are just as secretive, and they have far more to hide, as there are three known RTP settings that can be used by operators, and thus they CAN compete with each other on RTP.

    Other softwares have nothing to hide, and publish RTP to one or two decimal places, although lack of proof reading can in some cases make the information look highly unreliable.
     
  8. Nov 19, 2012
  9. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    You can easily spot which RTP your RTG casino is running just by opening Keno and looking at the payout. Since they can't manipulate Keno's odds, they can only change the paytable to meet their RTP. I haven't looked by I'm pretty sure that you can spot it with the Video Poker games as well (same as Keno).

    All MG casinos share the same Keno payout which leads me to believe that they all run the same RTP.
     
  10. Nov 19, 2012
  11. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I've spoken to MGS's CEO several times about this, and the reason they don't publish the RTP of their games is because a number of their licensees don't want it published. Some feel that their competitors may use it to their disadvantage.
     
  12. Nov 19, 2012
  13. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    With all due respect Bryan what on earth is that supposed to mean?

    How can information as basic as RTP be used to a casino's disadvantage?

    NetEnt list the RTP of all their slots in the help file to two decimal places, as do Jackpot Party - and they seem to be doing OK.
     
  14. Nov 19, 2012
  15. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I guess some operators are afraid that if MGS posts the RTPs, competing operators might point out "Hey, you can win more on our slots since our RTPs are higher!" or something silly like that. I've mentioned that other software providers do it - and when I meet up with them in London (February) I'll mention it again :D
     
    5 people like this.
  16. Nov 19, 2012
  17. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    That's good to know CM - thanks for the input.

    It still leaves an issue where some of their licensees are allowed to release this information and other are not, which is actually creating a imbalanced within their own clients with a special priviledged group being allowed to show transparency on this issue, while the others have their hands tied.
     
  18. Nov 19, 2012
  19. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    That will only help Keno players.
    It is an established fact that RTG operators can change the RTP of each slot individually, so that Keno info wont help at all unfortunately.

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Nov 19, 2012
  21. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    I must have forgotten that part. I thought it was one setting for all rsvs. Thanks. :)
     
  22. Nov 19, 2012
  23. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I'm not saying you're wrong but just noting that that statement contradicts what I have been told face-2-face by the owners of 2 well regarded RTG operators, albeit my conversations were around 3 years ago now.
     
  24. Nov 19, 2012
  25. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    What, that they can't change them individually - or that they can't change them at all?

    The RTG data sheets which were floating around a few years ago showed that some slots only had low and medium RTP, while some only had medium & high RTP (others had all three settings). From this info alone, it would be impossible for them to change ALL their slots to a high or low setting simultaneously.

    KK
     
  26. Nov 19, 2012
  27. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England

    I was told that the way RTG worked (Real Series at least) was that all the slots were grouped and although I can't remember the way it was phrased now to be honest, it was implied that one of 3 settings was applied.

    Then once the licence was issued and the initial RTPs set, if the casino wanted a setting changed, they supposedly had to submit a written justification to RTG which could take up to 6 months to have implemented. The problem is, well....it's RTG...just look at their due diligence on licensing! There's no way I'd stake anything valuable on this :D

    It's possible things have changed and casinos have more control now. I just don't know. As an aside and a point of clarity, I am convinced personally that no slot (which has been officially tested and certified) would support RTP changes on a player-by-player basis.
     
    3 people like this.
  28. Nov 19, 2012
  29. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    My information is the same Simmo!. More recent too.

    RTG operators can APPLY to have ALL their slots TRTP changed, but are NOT able to change individual slot TRTPs. I'm sure the "application" process is just a formality and is never refused.

    Suffice it to say that casinos that actually want their TRTP to be 92% when most RTGs are 95 or 97.5 have a warped view of how to make money in the medium to long term.

    What most members of the "It's rigged I tells ya" Club (annual subs are due Dec 1st BTW) can't grasp is that casinos NEED and WANT winners. The more often you win, the more you return and the more you wager.....and wagering is where the casino makes money. It's totally counterproductive to rip players off. If they win less than they do elsewhere, and it doesn't take too long to notice the effect of an extra 5% TRTP on your bottom line, they will gravitate towards other casinos and maybe even never play again. It's a losing situation for the casino moving forward.....which is why clipjoints who have been exposed for cheating, and even those who are suspected of such, don't survive....or at least never make it to the big time.

    It's also interesting to note that operators can also change the % contribution of each bet to their random jackpots, without affecting the overall TRTP of the game. A casino can boast about a 97.5% TRTP for their slots, but the reality is that you don't have much chance of reaching that figure without hitting the jackpot.

    All information I have gleaned over the years from various sources, quotable and not, confirms Bryan's statement a while back that MGS licensees can NOT alter the TRTP of the games.
     
    2 people like this.
  30. Nov 20, 2012
  31. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    That's also what I've read at several different places. If true (and we have to assume it is) then looking at the Keno paytable IS reliable.
     
  32. Nov 20, 2012
  33. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    Do you still have it? Or maybe you were referring to the coupons RTP's?

    Microgaming Casinos and Slots RTP: o10j2d.jpg,Nov 20, 2012
     
  34. Nov 20, 2012
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Well, they compete on RTP already, they use the past months audited payout figures where "all slots" are one category.

    If RTP cannot be changed, then there can be no competition between MGS operators based on RTP, yet this doesn't stop them trying through statements such as "highest payouts" etc.

    There is nothing to hide either, as no operator can use a lower RTP that would damage them if it got out.

    If their view that "players don't care about RTP" is true, why are they worrying at all?

    In any case, MGS DO publish the RTP as a range, such as "96-97%", and this at least allows a rough grouping to be made for the slots. There is even one MGS slot that has autoplay disabled, so this indicates which slot has the highest RTP of all, even though the figure is not published. The "range" however, was "99-100%" when it came out in a newsletter promoting it's launch at Grand Mondial. The RTP for non slot games can be calculated from the rules and payout tables.
     
  36. Nov 20, 2012
  37. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Although they are of course referring to the usually audited monthly payout figures across all games when they say that, not the RTP of the games per se.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Nov 20, 2012
  39. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    No, I mean the actual marketing data sheets which were once available online (if you knew where to look).
    The figures from those sheets are shown on this page: You must register/login in order to see the link.

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.

Share This Page