Microgaming Blackjack Gold Single Deck flawed?

Mozaik

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Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Holland
Hello everyone,

I would like to start this thread by saying that I've been playing at Microgaming casinos for some time now. The thing that strikes me the most is that I am never able to have any decent win at their Single Deck or Spanish Blackjack Gold versions (Flash). Considering blackjack is a -EV game, of course I acknowledge on the long run you will go broke. Nevertheless some things always seem happen during those blackjack sessions. Their game just feels unreal and it leaves me with a nasty taste in my stomach almost everytime I play it, that I decided to stop playing it online entirely.

A) I tend to lose 70-80 % when I double down, (even when the bank has 4,5 or 6 as a face card). Doubling with a 9,10 or 11 often gives me a 3,4 or 5, while the dealer doesnt even bust) As if its their way to take away any money you won from previous games.
B) When I increase my bets, they usually let me win once, followed by consecutive losses. As if some different pattern occurs when you bet higher.
C) Last but not least, it seems like the dealer has the Ace or a 10 more often than usual as face card, and that the player busts way too often with 12,13,14!

I ain't saying their game is rigged, since Microgaming apparently is a high end casino software developer with a good reputation. But I do want to know the opinion of other players who played this game with different sized bets. Is there any way I can access the stats for my Microgaming blackjack sessions, and if so is there any EV analytics tool, like there is for online poker?

When I search down Google, I hardly see any threats about this. It makes me think though, even if their game is flawed: who has the money to play countless blackjack sessions to have decent size sample to analyze? Other than the pay out percentage being offered by themself, there isn't any reference material from players or anything.

I am looking forward to your hear more experiences from players who play blackjack for real money at Microgaming casinos.
 

chuchu59

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Its not that I dont believe you but what you are saying is basically a gut feeling and not backed by any concrete data. Since it is a single deck you could show us say 500 consecutive hands play logs. Though the cards dealt are reshuffled after each hand they should, in theory, follow the rules of probability in the long run and if you use perfect strategy you shouldnt be losing that much.Doubling-up has 2 advantages. If you have 11 or 10 the chances of a 9 or face card appearing as your 3rd card greatly enhances your chance of a win and even when you dont get it the dealer will bust regularly but not more than 50% of the time if he has a 4, 5 or 6.If your doubling-up scenarios face a persistent outcome of losses then simply show us these outcomes for 100 or more hands. This may give some indication as to whether your argument holds water.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
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Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Playcheck will give your past history, at least for a certain amount of time.

I think if you email the casino you play at most, they can provide you with game logs.

I do trust Microgaming, but I don't like online blackjack. Something about that shuffle after every hand does seem to make a difference.

You might actually find your play is within expectations. It is surprising how easy it is to forget wins and remember losses.
 

Mozaik

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Location
Holland
Its not that I dont believe you but what you are saying is basically a gut feeling and not backed by any concrete data. Since it is a single deck you could show us say 500 consecutive hands play logs. Though the cards dealt are reshuffled after each hand they should, in theory, follow the rules of probability in the long run and if you use perfect strategy you shouldnt be losing that much.Doubling-up has 2 advantages. If you have 11 or 10 the chances of a 9 or face card appearing as your 3rd card greatly enhances your chance of a win and even when you dont get it the dealer will bust regularly but not more than 50% of the time if he has a 4, 5 or 6.If your doubling-up scenarios face a persistent outcome of losses then simply show us these outcomes for 100 or more hands. This may give some indication as to whether your argument holds water.

Thanks for your reaction chuchu, for now I can't back it up with data, just my personal experiences. Is there any way I could access my stats for the blackjack games I've played at a Microgaming casino? Not that I'm a stats expert, but wouldn't a sample size of just 100-500 hands be too small? Even if the percentages are off, it wouldn't really prove anything I think, since we all experience winning streaks and losing streaks.
 

Mozaik

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Location
Holland
Playcheck will give your past history, at least for a certain amount of time.

I think if you email the casino you play at most, they can provide you with game logs.

I do trust Microgaming, but I don't like online blackjack. Something about that shuffle after every hand does seem to make a difference.

You might actually find your play is within expectations. It is surprising how easy it is to forget wins and remember losses.

Hi Jasmine, thank you for your response. I see I could access the my game history for the 20 days. It shows each individual hand, but I was wondering is there any software available like there is for poker to analyze all hands combined together to see if there is any hoge fluctuation? I'm no statistical expert, so I have no clue how to determine by myself with these individual hands if everything been within expectation.
 

chuchu59

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Thanks for your reaction chuchu, for now I can't back it up with data, just my personal experiences. Is there any way I could access my stats for the blackjack games I've played at a Microgaming casino? Not that I'm a stats expert, but wouldn't a sample size of just 100-500 hands be too small? Even if the percentages are off, it wouldn't really prove anything I think, since we all experience winning streaks and losing streaks.

Asampling size of say 200-300 hands wouldnt be too small if they are only related to doubling-up. For each hand you have 3 cards and the dealer has at least 3 cards as welkl provided a 4,5 or 6(barring an ace) is shown. Given its a single deck of 52 cards, there is some significance with 6 of the 52 cards displayed and for 200 hands this may spell out something.
 

Westland Bowl

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Hello everyone,

I would like to start this thread by saying that I've been playing at Microgaming casinos for some time now. The thing that strikes me the most is that I am never able to have any decent win at their Single Deck or Spanish Blackjack Gold versions (Flash). Considering blackjack is a -EV game, of course I acknowledge on the long run you will go broke. Nevertheless some things always seem happen during those blackjack sessions. Their game just feels unreal and it leaves me with a nasty taste in my stomach almost everytime I play it, that I decided to stop playing it online entirely.

A) I tend to lose 70-80 % when I double down, (even when the bank has 4,5 or 6 as a face card). Doubling with a 9,10 or 11 often gives me a 3,4 or 5, while the dealer doesnt even bust) As if its their way to take away any money you won from previous games.
B) When I increase my bets, they usually let me win once, followed by consecutive losses. As if some different pattern occurs when you bet higher.
C) Last but not least, it seems like the dealer has the Ace or a 10 more often than usual as face card, and that the player busts way too often with 12,13,14!

I ain't saying their game is rigged, since Microgaming apparently is a high end casino software developer with a good reputation. But I do want to know the opinion of other players who played this game with different sized bets. Is there any way I can access the stats for my Microgaming blackjack sessions, and if so is there any EV analytics tool, like there is for online poker?

When I search down Google, I hardly see any threats about this. It makes me think though, even if their game is flawed: who has the money to play countless blackjack sessions to have decent size sample to analyze? Other than the pay out percentage being offered by themself, there isn't any reference material from players or anything.

I am looking forward to your hear more experiences from players who play blackjack for real money at Microgaming casinos.

I've been saying online blackjack has been "off" for years. You should be winning 55% of your double-downs, plus/minus 1% depending on the number of cards in the deck. 70-80% losing double-downs is waaaay off even for the short run of 500 hands. And, yes, I've noticed different play when increasing bet sizes and if you decide to bet a larger amount for consecutive hands, it seems they only throw a bone of a win once in a while. It is supposed to be that the casino's RNG is not supposed to know your bet size and hand total but it appears they do and affects your win/lose outcome. It might be that the blackjack games are conducted on a RTP basis like a slot game to where if you have a bit of a balance greater than your starting balance, it just forces the balance (through losing hands) in line percentage-wise to the set RTP. I noticed this three years ago and since then I have only played the freebies. Anyway, I warn you.... If you continue to talk like this, you will be candidate for the "Tin Foil Hat Club"... like I am! :D

I noticed you are from Holland. You might be able to play Pinnacle Sportsbook's casino blackjack. I find their blackjack is about the most realistic blackjack game out there.
 

binary128

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Location
Vancouver, BC
I've made this offer several times over the years within an assortment of CM threads, for Blackjack as well as Video Poker.

I could create a test account into our production demo (whose results are stored in a database). Play some games. Make a record of a dozen, or couple dozen, game records (exact date and time, bet amount, win/loss). I dump the game play into a log for stat analysis. The Player checks that the dozen or so games of which they made a record are exactly as displayed in the log (to confirm that the logs haven't been "fixed").

They could play on and off, invite friends, whatever - none of that matters. Just build up a decent sample size against which a stat analysis could be run.

None of this would be tough to do. No one has ever taken up the offer. I've always concluded that this is because Galewind Software is just too small to care about, and I really can't argue with that.

Chris
 

souldragon

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Location
Kent
My experience exactly,not only with single deck bot multi deck too.In no way am i going to imply anything about online blackjack (tin hat is on order but has not arrived yet) but after many years playing BJ at land based casinos the two things that strike me about the online versions are the number of times a low card appears on a double down and how often the dealer makes a hand from a bad upcard (3,4,5 or 6).Just my thoughts which i can't back up with any data but it does seem a lot easier to win at a bricks & mortar casino.
 

Westland Bowl

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PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Location
America
I've made this offer several times over the years within an assortment of CM threads, for Blackjack as well as Video Poker.

I could create a test account into our production demo (whose results are stored in a database). Play some games. Make a record of a dozen, or couple dozen, game records (exact date and time, bet amount, win/loss). I dump the game play into a log for stat analysis. The Player checks that the dozen or so games of which they made a record are exactly as displayed in the log (to confirm that the logs haven't been "fixed").

They could play on and off, invite friends, whatever - none of that matters. Just build up a decent sample size against which a stat analysis could be run.

None of this would be tough to do. No one has ever taken up the offer. I've always concluded that this is because Galewind Software is just too small to care about, and I really can't argue with that.

Chris


Really? I guess I just didn't see those posts. I would be interested in just blackjack as that is my game. How many hands would be considered decent sample size?
 

HIGHIQ

Banned User : misrepresentation and PAB abuse
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Hello everyone,

I would like to start this thread by saying that I've been playing at Microgaming casinos for some time now. The thing that strikes me the most is that I am never able to have any decent win at their Single Deck or Spanish Blackjack Gold versions (Flash). Considering blackjack is a -EV game, of course I acknowledge on the long run you will go broke. Nevertheless some things always seem happen during those blackjack sessions. Their game just feels unreal and it leaves me with a nasty taste in my stomach almost everytime I play it, that I decided to stop playing it online entirely.

A) I tend to lose 70-80 % when I double down, (even when the bank has 4,5 or 6 as a face card). Doubling with a 9,10 or 11 often gives me a 3,4 or 5, while the dealer doesnt even bust) As if its their way to take away any money you won from previous games.
B) When I increase my bets, they usually let me win once, followed by consecutive losses. As if some different pattern occurs when you bet higher.
C) Last but not least, it seems like the dealer has the Ace or a 10 more often than usual as face card, and that the player busts way too often with 12,13,14!

I ain't saying their game is rigged, since Microgaming apparently is a high end casino software developer with a good reputation. But I do want to know the opinion of other players who played this game with different sized bets. Is there any way I can access the stats for my Microgaming blackjack sessions, and if so is there any EV analytics tool, like there is for online poker?

When I search down Google, I hardly see any threats about this. It makes me think though, even if their game is flawed: who has the money to play countless blackjack sessions to have decent size sample to analyze? Other than the pay out percentage being offered by themself, there isn't any reference material from players or anything.

I am looking forward to your hear more experiences from players who play blackjack for real money at Microgaming casinos.
I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT U MEAN... ITS KINDA UNREAL WHEN U INCREASE UR BET AFTER LOSS IT TAKES U MONEY SO EASY SO UNREALISTIC FEELING.. STAY AWAY WITH THEIR BLACKJACK OR THE ROULETTE WHEEL...PREFER BJ OR ROULETTE OR BACARAT AT LIVE GAMES...
 

binary128

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Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Vancouver, BC
Really? I guess I just didn't see those posts. I would be interested in just blackjack as that is my game. How many hands would be considered decent sample size?

I'd say the sample size would best be determined by how many tests you want to run. If you want to compare how often some event (let's say Blackjack on the deal) occurs for the Player and for the Dealer, well, I don't know. I can ask.

But bottom line is the more games the better.

Then, there is the question of who is going to run the analysis?

But what I think we should agree on is that everything is done in public. The game logs can be published. Then you, or any one, can run whatever tests they want to run.

I've got some ideas. If you want to give it a go let me know.

Chris
 

petkaymad

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Nov 28, 2007
Location
Out Woopwoop Way
Hello everyone,

I would like to start this thread by saying that I've been playing at Microgaming casinos for some time now. The thing that strikes me the most is that I am never able to have any decent win at their Single Deck or Spanish Blackjack Gold versions (Flash). Considering blackjack is a -EV game, of course I acknowledge on the long run you will go broke. Nevertheless some things always seem happen during those blackjack sessions. Their game just feels unreal and it leaves me with a nasty taste in my stomach almost everytime I play it, that I decided to stop playing it online entirely.

A) I tend to lose 70-80 % when I double down, (even when the bank has 4,5 or 6 as a face card). Doubling with a 9,10 or 11 often gives me a 3,4 or 5, while the dealer doesnt even bust) As if its their way to take away any money you won from previous games.
B) When I increase my bets, they usually let me win once, followed by consecutive losses. As if some different pattern occurs when you bet higher.
C) Last but not least, it seems like the dealer has the Ace or a 10 more often than usual as face card, and that the player busts way too often with 12,13,14!

I ain't saying their game is rigged, since Microgaming apparently is a high end casino software developer with a good reputation. But I do want to know the opinion of other players who played this game with different sized bets. Is there any way I can access the stats for my Microgaming blackjack sessions, and if so is there any EV analytics tool, like there is for online poker?

When I search down Google, I hardly see any threats about this. It makes me think though, even if their game is flawed: who has the money to play countless blackjack sessions to have decent size sample to analyze? Other than the pay out percentage being offered by themself, there isn't any reference material from players or anything.

I am looking forward to your hear more experiences from players who play blackjack for real money at Microgaming casinos.

I have been playing Blackjack online for many years, mostly with a lot of success and I have noticed the same thing at both Microgaming and other software. If you double down or up your bets from a set amount you will lose. It is almost an unwritten guarantee.

In November 2012 I did an exercise to see what the trend was with a sample of 250 hands over about a 4 hour period with one of the most reputable casinos on this site and in that 250 hand sample I lost 47/53 hands when I doubled down, it did not seem to matter what the dealers hand was.

When I played the maximum bet in those 250 hands I lost 11/13 hands. If I played with my basic bet, $5 in my case I won 89/184 hands.

I found some of the dealers hands absolutely amazing and was shocked to get beaten when I had 21 and the dealer pulling a BJ way too many times to be real.

I no longer play BJ at this very reputable site and instead play on a site that is not listed here, that has provided me with a lot of winnings that have been paid in full without hitch.
 

Westland Bowl

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I have been playing Blackjack online for many years, mostly with a lot of success and I have noticed the same thing at both Microgaming and other software. If you double down or up your bets from a set amount you will lose. It is almost an unwritten guarantee.

In November 2012 I did an exercise to see what the trend was with a sample of 250 hands over about a 4 hour period with one of the most reputable casinos on this site and in that 250 hand sample I lost 47/53 hands when I doubled down, it did not seem to matter what the dealers hand was.

When I played the maximum bet in those 250 hands I lost 11/13 hands. If I played with my basic bet, $5 in my case I won 89/184 hands.

I found some of the dealers hands absolutely amazing and was shocked to get beaten when I had 21 and the dealer pulling a BJ way too many times to be real.

I no longer play BJ at this very reputable site and instead play on a site that is not listed here, that has provided me with a lot of winnings that have been paid in full without hitch.

Lost 47 out of 53 double-downs??? Wow, unreal! :what: Were these basic strategy double-downs or were some of them just double-downs on a whim? You would lose more double-downs than normal if you didn't follow basic strategy for them. But even if these double downs were not fully following basic strategy, winning only 12% of them is totally unreal! Normal basic strategy double downs percentage should be about 55%.

With your basic bets winning 48% of the time, it does look odd that your maximum bets only won 15% of the time.:what:
 

Westland Bowl

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I'd say the sample size would best be determined by how many tests you want to run. If you want to compare how often some event (let's say Blackjack on the deal) occurs for the Player and for the Dealer, well, I don't know. I can ask.

But bottom line is the more games the better.

Then, there is the question of who is going to run the analysis?

But what I think we should agree on is that everything is done in public. The game logs can be published. Then you, or any one, can run whatever tests they want to run.

I've got some ideas. If you want to give it a go let me know.

Chris

Ok, I'll try it. We can put into separate thread. Maybe "Galewind Test Casino Results" or something like that.
 

lnspin

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I have been playing Blackjack online for many years, mostly with a lot of success and I have noticed the same thing at both Microgaming and other software. If you double down or up your bets from a set amount you will lose. It is almost an unwritten guarantee.

In November 2012 I did an exercise to see what the trend was with a sample of 250 hands over about a 4 hour period with one of the most reputable casinos on this site and in that 250 hand sample I lost 47/53 hands when I doubled down, it did not seem to matter what the dealers hand was.

When I played the maximum bet in those 250 hands I lost 11/13 hands. If I played with my basic bet, $5 in my case I won 89/184 hands.

I found some of the dealers hands absolutely amazing and was shocked to get beaten when I had 21 and the dealer pulling a BJ way too many times to be real.

I no longer play BJ at this very reputable site and instead play on a site that is not listed here, that has provided me with a lot of winnings that have been paid in full without hitch.

Part in bold? How do you lose with 21?
 

petkaymad

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Lost 47 out of 53 double-downs??? Wow, unreal! :what: Were these basic strategy double-downs or were some of them just double-downs on a whim? You would lose more double-downs than normal if you didn't follow basic strategy for them. But even if these double downs were not fully following basic strategy, winning only 12% of them is totally unreal! Normal basic strategy double downs percentage should be about 55%.

With your basic bets winning 48% of the time, it does look odd that your maximum bets only won 15% of the time.:what:

I agree Westland Bowl, and I use basic strategy all the way, I never waiver.

Inspin, Black Jack always beats 21. At least it does where I play, I would love to know where to play where it doesn't.
 

HIGHIQ

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I have been playing Blackjack online for many years, mostly with a lot of success and I have noticed the same thing at both Microgaming and other software. If you double down or up your bets from a set amount you will lose. It is almost an unwritten guarantee.

In November 2012 I did an exercise to see what the trend was with a sample of 250 hands over about a 4 hour period with one of the most reputable casinos on this site and in that 250 hand sample I lost 47/53 hands when I doubled down, it did not seem to matter what the dealers hand was.

When I played the maximum bet in those 250 hands I lost 11/13 hands. If I played with my basic bet, $5 in my case I won 89/184 hands.

I found some of the dealers hands absolutely amazing and was shocked to get beaten when I had 21 and the dealer pulling a BJ way too many times to be real.

I no longer play BJ at this very reputable site and instead play on a site that is not listed here, that has provided me with a lot of winnings that have been paid in full without hitch.
u just say things i want to say the same and feels the same again.

common thing. same exepreience

if u bet lower basic seems the most succesfull once u start to increase bets or double downs u see indeed things u get beat like its impossible
 

HIGHIQ

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Part in bold? How do you lose with 21?
if u play for example multihand...and u get all 5 very strong hand 20 and 21's and dealer also got 10 u think this time iam gonna for sure win some money u will get shocked when its dealer hand become blackjack... so many time i see this... no words...
 

binary128

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Ok, I'll try it. We can put into separate thread. Maybe "Galewind Test Casino Results" or something like that.

OK, whenever you want. You can include a couple of other Players if you want, to build up the game count more quickly. (I'd say choose Players that you're pretty sure know basic strategy, and also Players that you trust won't "lose intentionally on the high bets", or other silly stuff, just to make a point.)

Also, you'd better keep Galewind out of the title. That has caused some problems in the past. Maybe just "Casinomeister tests Blackjack"?

Otherwise, let me know. No rush - your schedule.

Chris
 

lnspin

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I agree Westland Bowl, and I use basic strategy all the way, I never waiver.

Inspin, Black Jack always beats 21. At least it does where I play, I would love to know where to play where it doesn't.

Doesnt the dealer check for BJ with an ace or ten showing, like in a casino? If so theres no way for you to get 21 by pulling cards.
 

souldragon

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Location
Kent
Doesnt the dealer check for BJ with an ace or ten showing, like in a casino? If so theres no way for you to get 21 by pulling cards.

It depends which version you are playing.European BJ is 'no peek' which means that the dealer does not draw until the player stands.Therefore you can lose with 21 if the dealer is showing a 10 and then pulls an ace.
 

Mozaik

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Holland
Hi guys,

A quick update. I tried to request my complete handhistory at the Microgaming casino I play at, but unfortunately they ain't able to provide me with it. The following response I've received from one of the better accredited casinos:

[Hope you are well today.

I have been asked to get in touch with you by our support guys regarding your request for information on all the Blackjack hands which you have played here at *********.

Unfortunately this information is only captured on your Playcheck, which you can access when you are logged on, but will only give you 20 days of detailed information.

The files held by our software provider which contain older information can only be requested in cases where there is a legal requirement to view the same.

I would advise you to start analysing your data on Playcheck from 20 days ago, and then continue to look at these statistics on a daily or weekly basis, so that you do not miss out on any more days of gameplay.]

So basically I could only access my hands for the past 20 days, which is ridicolous in my eyes for a huge provider like Microgaming. I also find the presentation of the hands extremely difficult. I must say I did take a look at the hands, but the sample is too small to jump onto any conclusions. Nor do I have the time or the desire to go through every hand to see if things are like they should. I did notice most max chip bets of 25 euros were lost, even a double. In total I lost a few thousand euros with it, never did I receive any decent chance to win, while most of my bets were 5-10 euros. My decision to not play any blackjack online (apart from live dealer blackjack) still stands.

But I'm glad I ain't the only one who experienced their flash Single Deck Blackjack Gold or Spanish Blackjack version like that. I could say the same about Playtech from my past experience, but there often a sudden delay happens you request another card. Like the system is searching for a card to screw you over.
 

Mozaik

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Just decided to try the Microgaming blackjack again. And like I've expected I went to lose my 70 euros pretty quick. I lost all my 4 doubles as usual even though the dealer had 5/6/7, and the majority of higher bets. The bank hardly ever busts, while I keep busting with 12/13/14. This type of blackjack is in my opinion, no doubt about it adaptive to your betsize. It doesn't feel natural in any type of way, it's simply unbeatable.

Which is logical on the long run, but even short term winners seem to be quite impossible. I CANNOT recommend Microgaming Single Blackjack, unless you like to flush your money away. Again I felt completely powerless, even though I played the game by the book. It's just one regressive line each time you play.
 

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