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Metro wouldn't pay $6600

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by guymiz, Oct 2, 2007.

    Oct 2, 2007
  1. guymiz

    guymiz Dormant account

    Occupation:
    doctoer
    Location:
    israel
    If you look at the terms at Metro casino it says

    Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    It is obvious from the terms you can play any game you wish not for the wagering.I played Roueltte and slots and they confiscated my winnings, not honoring their own terms.


    I got a reply from the Manager that this phrase is not related to the signup bonus but it says "towards the wagering obligation of the WELCOME BONUS.
    "

    Here is the answer I got from the Manager:


    You have regrettably interpreted our rules incorrectly. The headline at the top of our Welcome Bonus page clearly states that there is a 100% Welcome Bonus on our Slots, Keno and Money Wheel games. Indeed, slightly further down the page we then invite you to "Make a purchase of between $25 and $500 and you'll receive a 100% match Welcome Bonus of up to $500 to enjoy on ALL of our Slot machines, Keno and Money Wheel".

    Furthermore, we clarify the following on our full terms and conditions page, which are linked from the above page:

    "If you wish to make a withdrawal before fulfilling the wagering requirement, please note that the bonus will be withdrawn from your winnings and also any part of your winnings that was won by use of any part of the bonus. This is in the interest of fair play considering the level of the bonus and that any wager on our games can return sizeable winnings."

    In your case, you used the bonus to add to your deposit to win on French Roulette when the Welcome Bonus is for sole use on our Slots, Keno and Money Wheel. Therefore all winnings gained by use of the bonus on this excluded game are null and void. The fact that you went on to use your winnings to meet the wagering obligation on those games after you played with the bonus to win on French Roulette is irrelevant.

    Therefore, we have today voided your winnings in the casino but, however, as we have noticed that you had accounts with our sister casinos, Jackpot Palace and Sunset Casino and similarly played excluded games there, in the interests of fairness we are returning via Neteller your two $500 deposits with those casinos via your account with Metro as one payment of $1,000.. This means of course that you will have now had all three of your deposits with our three casinos returned to you which we trust you will receive in good faith along with our above decision.

    Regards,

    Tom Lynch
    Casino Manager
    Metro Casino



    I never withdraw before completing the wagering requirement so it is not applicable to me.

    No more replies from the casino Manager
     
  2. Oct 2, 2007
  3. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    That is confusing... is he saying that you built up your bankroll on roulette, then used those 'winnings' to play through your wagering requirements on the games that count? If so
    may be meant to include any profits earned from play on roulette. hmmm:confused:
     
  4. Oct 2, 2007
  5. guymiz

    guymiz Dormant account

    Occupation:
    doctoer
    Location:
    israel
    well lojo, what he meant is obviously not profit but WAGERING as he the terms mentioned wagering not balance and not profits

    It says would count towards wagering thatsfine, and also the terms said

    PERMITTED while permitted...
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Oct 2, 2007
  7. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    It is not obvious. There are literally hundreds of posts about casinos confiscating wins because they have that magic phrase in their T&C which bonus whores always try to use against the casinos.

    Whenever you see this phrase, what you need to do is go into live chat and ask them if it's okay for you to bet your entire (deposit+bonus) balance on a single Roulette spin or hand of Blackjack and if you win, grind out the wagering requirement at low-stake slots, and be able to withdraw without any problems. If they agree, make sure to get a copy of the chat transcript in writing.

    For future reference, no casino will agree to this. It is always better to assume that you are not allowed to play on the excluded games, or at the very least, just ask for clarification from live chat.

    Better yet - don't play with a bonus! But if you must, just be aware that 99.99% of all bonuses are SLOTS-ONLY these days, thanks to people such as yourself.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Oct 2, 2007
  9. guymiz

    guymiz Dormant account

    Occupation:
    doctoer
    Location:
    israel
    If the situtation was that it said those game would not count towards wagering then it is not obvious but here it says WHILE PERMITTED

    Why would I have to ask if the terms mentioned PERMITTED TO PLAY OTHER GAMES ?
     
  10. Oct 2, 2007
  11. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    No part of your original post contains the phrase "while permitted" so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

    The bottom line is, if you interpret the following phrase...

    ...to mean that you can play ANY game you wish in ANY manner you wish, as long as you complete the wagering requirement on slots afterwards, then you are just asking for trouble.

    I completely agree that the wording of the rule is ambiguous - possibly intentionally so - and that it could be interpreted the way you have interpreted it. However, I have also been around long enough to know what the rule actually means, and that is that you cannot play any other game otherwise your winnings will be confiscated and your deposit returned.

    So, consider this a lesson learned. You got your deposits back, they could have kept those as well. In the future, make sure to interpret the rule as I have outlined above, because that's how the casinos interpret it.
     
  12. Oct 2, 2007
  13. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Lemme see if I've got this right: People think they can deposit 500, get another 500, play the hell out of games that don't meet the WR, then if they are ahead enough go ahead and meet the WR on the accepted games and expect to get paid their 'winnings'?

    Sure, a swarm will come along and say 'that's what it says', but you know damn well that is simply manipulation, loophole slithering, etc.

    Sure, sure, sure. Metro - tighten up the T&C, but this is ridiculous. What, is bonus manipulation a freaking career now?

    I gots no pity.
     
    2 people like this.
  14. Oct 2, 2007
  15. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    Exactly. I don't know how that language doesn't mean exactly what it says - that you're permitted to play any game, but must complete the WR only on certain ones that count. I'm sorry to see that others aren't coming to your defense here.

    I understand if people don't like the way you "exploited" the rules, but if you followed them then you should be paid. Period.
     
    2 people like this.
  16. Oct 2, 2007
  17. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    Again, I agree that the wording of the rule is ambiguous. However, considering this person's location - one that is usually excluded from playing bonuses in the first place due to massive amounts of player fraud - I find the whole thing a bit fishy.
     
  18. Oct 3, 2007
  19. dancinggoon

    dancinggoon Dormant account PABnorogue PABrogue PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    $$$
    Location:
    Around the world
    In my eyes these terms are very clear, you can play all games if you want, but only slots are counting to the wagering requirements, wich you have to full fill if you want to order a withdral request. Thats it, nothing about games that void winnings!

    If Metro trys to void winnings, because they think their rules have another meaning, as they are written on their homepage, they are not better as other roguecasinos and should be kicked in the roguepit! :mad:

    If slotswizzards tells you, its your own fault because "all games are permitted" means in reallity "only slots are allowed and all other games void winnings" and you have should known better, he is just showing us is affiliate face.

    Players that use boni for their advantage are bad for his buisness as a affiliate, because he will only earn money if the players are losing money!
    With a bonus involved they have better chances to quit with a profit, thats the reason why he tells you to play always without a bonus!

    Its a pitty that affiliates like him are backing rogueoperations and bashing unexperianced players like guymiz!
     
  20. Oct 3, 2007
  21. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia

    The T+Cs are crystal clear:

    Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.

    There is no ambuguity here - all games are permitted to be played. Period.

    SlotsWizard you are really flying the affiliate colours loud and proud. And by pointing to the player's locale as justification is clutching at straws to say the very least.

    I am not sure how some affiliates sleep at night. Its time for an affiliates Rogue Pit and I think our friend SlotsWizard qualifies without a shadow of a doubt.


    ...
     
  22. Oct 3, 2007
  23. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    to me this says that after you meet the wagering requirements on slots/keno/mw, that play on other games after this point WILL count towards wagering. this makes no sense because after the wagering is done, there is no obligation left. :confused:

    so i would say the statement is not crystal clear.

    i would also say that they are including this statement allowing other games so that, provided you make it through wagering on slots, that you will go on to other games and lose it all back. the term is not clear enough to convey that excluded games mustn't be played until after playthrough, but at the same time you know the casino has the key to you getting your winnings.

    if your boss at work said, "go on, kick me in the nuts", do you do it just because it seems like you can? it doesn't cross your mind that doing a questionable action such as that might cost your job, even though it has apparently been allowed? measure twice, cut once. if you are too quick with the scissors THINKING you know exactly what you're doing, all too often you end up with a reject.

    the way that this is worded, and considering it is virtually universal that deposited funds are wagered FIRST, then provided you never dropped below 500 or used any bonus money to make a wager with, that you CAN do an early withdrawal and take your deposit plus winnings while forfeiting the bonus money.

    but again, would you attempt this without getting concrete assurance that it's okay?

    clearly casinos such as this one need a course in writing clear and precise statements, but then again why would they want to do so when they can use the ambiguity to their favour? they want to make bonuses difficult to win from, and letting you trip over poorly worded terms is just a tool these kinds of outfits have at their disposal for pocketing your money.

    i don't work for or pimp any casino or even have any kind of website, but i can easily go in the casino's shoes for a sec and see why they do it and guess at what they might be trying to actually mean despite how they say it. and then when i go back to my shoes, i can easily see why a diligent player will not only read what's written, but follow up with any questions that arise in his/her mind.

    THIS bit says to me that they can't even take your accrued winnings, only the amount of bonus. clearly not the case, since they are taking the winnings too. how can they do such a thing? because the words don't really mean what they say.

    when in doubt, talk it out. clarify, ask, divine the true meaning. if i'm pissing in your ear, yet tell you it's raining, do you take that as gospel or investigate the true nature and source of the liquid falling upon you?

    i am all about trying to loophole rules or point out contradictions and ambiguities and contingencies, but i don't try to get one over on someone who is holding my money, nor try to prove to them and convince them how i'm technically right, because they have the power to shut me down and hang on to my cash and laugh about it.

    the casino is an asshole, but the player is a smartass. who wins out? the ones with the money and the power. i'm unsure whether bryan would even take this case when he returns, because the player is clearly hunting for every advantage and not doing their due diligence before entrusting the casino with their money. possession is power, You must register/login in order to see the link..

    sorry to piss on your parade, but i bet you're screwed, pal. i admire your ambition, but it's bad judgment to think that a casino will adopt the interpretation of your choosing or admit that they are wrong to have worded it badly. by default "the customer is always right", but the casino covers themselves by putting it in the terms that "the casino is actually always right". you must've missed that particular point.

    better luck next time :thumbsup:
     
    2 people like this.
  24. Oct 3, 2007
  25. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    You couldn't possibly be more ignorant.

    Firstly, I don't know how many times I need to state this but I will repeat it a third time in bold text so that maybe you can see it:

    I agree that the wording of the rule is You must register/login in order to see the link.. Look at that, I've even been kind enough to provide you with a link to the definition of the word.

    Secondly, anyone who has ever visited ANY gambling forum would know better than to try to play a bonus this way because the casinos consider it to be abuse. This isn't "me trying to protect my business", it's me offering sound advice to anyone who thinks they can pull a fast one only to end up getting screwed by the "FU" clause instead.

    Thirdly, the majority of bonuses these days DO NOT give the player an edge over the casino. How you seem to think that a 30x WR for slots or 300x to 1200x WR for blackjack benefits the players and not the casinos, shows how little you know about bonuses.

    And last but not least, how dare you claim that I am out to protect rogue casinos. I defy you to find where on my web site I promote this particular casino or any other rogue. I have worked hard to build a decent, honest web site and for you to come along and dismiss it all as "protecting rogues" says more about you than it says about me. And for the record, I haven't made a dime from my web site - you don't become an affiliate and then suddenly start making tons of money. I don't even expect to make money from my it; instead, I only expect to provide something useful and valuable to the gambling community. Anything extra is just a nice bonus. I work a day job from 9-5 like everyone else, my web site is merely my hobby so your claims about me "my business" are incorrect because getting up in the morning and going to work - which has nothing to do with casinos or gambling - that is my business.

    So when you're done searching my web site and didn't find anything, try searching through my posts on this forum to see where I have defended rogue casinos. I've only got a little over 1,200 posts.

    The next time you try to pull the "affiliate card" on someone, you really ought to make sure you have a leg to stand on.

    Did I not mark my calendar correctly? Is today Gang-Up-On-A-New-Affiliate-Who-Doesn't-Even-Promote-This-Shitty-Casino Day?

    Sorry, but I happen to have ETHICS, so your unfounded comments don't hold water either. Also, you seem to have a history of bashing casinos, affiliates, and the Casinomeister himself. You've even said that you don't trust him, so why if he created a "rogue affiliate" section would you trust that?

    Here's a typical "pangloss" thread for your viewing pleasure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2007
    4 people like this.
  26. Oct 3, 2007
  27. jod5413

    jod5413 Is That Better?

    Occupation:
    having a good time doing anything
    Location:
    somewhere on the planet
    :thumbsup: Calm, rational, intelligent reply, SW. You are a credit to the forum :thumbsup:

    Jod
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Oct 3, 2007
  29. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Honestly, I cannot see how the casino can use these terms to deny winnings. HGB is right. How stupid can they get. What is the purpose of saying that play at other games will count towards WRs after they are actually met. The mind boggles.

    If the player is deemed not to have completed WRs at least they should give him half of the winnings since they have explicitly stated that they would deduct the bonus and winnings generated by the bonus which means that the bonus did not figure in the play.

    Simply put, if their English isnt good enough, get someone who is to rewrite the terms and conditions. Otherwise, pay up and regard this as a lesson earned.
     
  30. Oct 3, 2007
  31. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    I agree that it would be nice if rogue casinos followed their own T&C's, but it would be even better if they weren't in business in the first place. My earlier posts were misinterpreted as "protecting the rogues" by a few well-meaning yet misguided individuals because I've seen this situation happen enough times to know that they always end the same way - the way that this one has ended.

    Anyway... don't let me interrupt the onslaught of entertaining anti-affiliate posts. I'm hoping to get some more negative reputation.

    View attachment 8396
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2007
  32. Oct 3, 2007
  33. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Disagreements are bound to occur especially in an open forum like this. Reasoning should be brought to the fore instead of neg. rep. IMO, these should be saved for posters who spam or those who have gone overboard and used abusive language or have thrashed other posters senselessly.
     
    2 people like this.
  34. Oct 3, 2007
  35. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    little freudian slip there?

    both are in the wrong, or both are in the right. the casino should have to make its terms crystal clear. but a player should, where a term is questionably worded, get clarification.

    how often has it been discussed here that it's prudent to ask just what the nature of "excluded games" or "not counting towards wr" means for each casino? more than once or twice.

    a player smart enough to find and exploit loopholes or ambiguity, and smart enough to find the resources to learn to hunt/wh0re bonuses, and smart enough to come here for help, really ought to be smart enough to know that casinos are the arbiters of what the rules are and what they mean, and they should be smart enough to ask and get things clear before handing over their money. (see the link i posted in the previous post)

    as it stands now, the player should argue that bonus funds were not used to create winnings, if indeed the player never dipped below 500 or made any bet that if lost would put the account below 500. if they did use bonus money to generate winnings on a disallowed game, that is classic abusive behaviour, and although there's a case for believing this was allowed, there is just as strong a case that it isn't.

    the mention of "playing games prior to meeting wagering" and "doesn't count towards wagering" should conjure up red flags to the player. failing that defence, the player should go to the paragraph saying only "bonus will be removed" and fight to have the winnings remain intact. but all of these terms are worded foggily (real word?) and the damage being done, there are only these straws to grasp at while hoping the casino will act generously and admit their part of the fault in the miscommunication.

    finally, who in this world doesn't know that casinos are (potentially) crooked? ask any online gambler, and they have been shafted personally or have read many stories of it happening. tell any non-gambler that you play online, and they will ask you "is it safe? what happens if they don't pay?"

    why do you think the casino is going to roll over and pay out when you took advantage of a flawed statement? there's usually a term covering winnings from a malfunction and failure to report such, so at the same time if you want to be safe you should report the flaws in the terms to the casino also. common sense. or put another way, asking will get them to say "yes you can" do whatever your angle is, instead of just not saying that "you can't" do it. know what i mean, vern?

    :thumbsup:
     
    4 people like this.
  36. Oct 3, 2007
  37. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Some casinos will be willing to cough up when they are in for the long haul and it can only kick themselves for wording the Ts and Cs like that. However, this particular casino takes full advantage of the situation with a reason that simply doesnt make sense. If the games are permitted although they do not contribute to WRs, it should be interpreted that way and the casino should pay up. I cannot see how this could be interpreted as the games being disallowed before WRs are met. If the casino insists that it is right, it should regard him as playing without a bonus so they can deduct his whole bonus and half his winnings from his withdrawal assuming that evey bet he made was a mixture of half bonus, half deposit. Incidentally, one of the rogues (cant remember whether it was Virtual) denied a players winnings because he played disallowed games even after meeting WRs.
     
    2 people like this.
  38. Oct 3, 2007
  39. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    for that to be the case, the player is going to have to sweet-talk and gently nudge the casino to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. and it seems like the casino is not budging, and the player's attitude seems somewhat hostile, so i don't see this going anywhere productive.

    one more thing, "permitted" could be taken to mean simply that the software won't stop you from doing so. read it like this "you can play these games, but doing it before the wr is met is not cricket". read 'not cricket' as 'prohibited', as 'not allowed' or as 'does not contribute', which we've come to realize means prohibited.

    it just ain't worth that risk to "pull a fast one" or "get one over". imagine the casino manager was a real prick and wanted to keep your deposit too...just cuz you wouldn't ask for it clarified beforehand. be a smartass all you want with a no-deposit bonus, because you aren't risking anything, but when your money's in their hands, you gotta walk the line (and figure out for certain what the line really is)

    blnt :thumbsup:
     

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