Megaways ..... AAAAAAAAAAAAAgh

[brianmon]

Your missing another option, that after the initial reels stop cascades are re picked from any position of the reel again and not from what landed just above the first time. It could even use another random set for each cascade too, loads of ways to do it. This way also explains how you can drop another scatter on same reel on top of another as you say cant happen if its cascading from its current position

Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

 

[Jono777]

Glad someone "gets me"

So hard to explain thoughts and ideas over 'text' sometimes

 

[brianmon]

There was also that guy, who extracted the reel bands from the coding that's downloaded to your computer, every time you load the game. IIRC he was Scandinavian.
I'm not sure if he actually posted the Bonanza reel bands, even though he did say he'd extracted them.
But he definitely posted the DHV reel bands

 

[Reelsoffun]

Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

So have you not cleared a block of 7 of the same symbol to then see another 7 drop in of the same ones? i know i have more than once.

They do have control hence why they use multiple reel strip sets. Control can still be random.

 

[Jono777]

There was also that guy, who extracted the reel bands from the coding that's downloaded to your computer, every time you load the game. IIRC he was Scandinavian.
I'm not sure if he actually posted the Bonanza reel bands, even though he did say he'd extracted them.
But he definitely posted the DHV reel bands

DHV! - Yes I recall those bands being posted. Lot different tho IMO as those only have 4 symbols every spin, compared to the multi million combinations possible on Bonanza

 

[Reelsoffun]

This and the stacked symbols are the biggest clues that they aren't fixed reel strips. Take Bonanza for example...imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel.

I think you guys make it too complicated. If you know how Jammin Jars works...this would be the same thing except that instead of having thousands of predetermined outcomes and picking one for each spin, the game would just make them out of the blue to match the RNG results.

If the RNG says 15x win on that spin then the game will "make" a 15x win. There are hundreds of ways to win 15x on Bonanza.

Not sure how you can say they aren't fixed strips when they were posted on this site somewhere months ago.
And already said they are in the region of 177 symbols each plus or minus half a dozen or so, and like other games uses more than one set for the base. Which offsets some of "imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel" comment.

 

[brianmon]

DHV! - Yes I recall those bands being posted. Lot different tho IMO as those only have 4 symbols every spin, compared to the multi million combinations possible on Bonanza

Yeah, But I wasn't comparing the two. Just saying that he did have the necessary computer skills to extract the reel bands from the coding, and posted the DHV ones. So his claim that he extracted the Bonanza reel bands is probably true. But IIRC he stopped posting before he posted the Bonanza bands, or maybe it was just after

 

[Reelsoffun]

Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

No the math is the control and it don't leave it to any more chance than expected that's the point of having the strips they are the math.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Yeah, But I wasn't comparing the two. Just saying that he did have the necessary computer skills to extract the reel bands from the coding, and posted the DHV ones. So his claim that he extracted the Bonanza reel bands is probably true. But IIRC he stopped posting before he posted the Bonanza bands, or maybe it was just after

I have the strip info and math for many games but its not my place to post them, and I will not, sorry.

 

[brianmon]

No the math is the control and it don't leave it to any more chance than expected that's the point of having the strips they are the math.

Maybe the next symbol to drop, isn't the next one on the reel band. But the 3rd or 4th one or whatever. But I'd expect it to be a fixed offset, which would be more 'calculateable', rather than a random one, where it could randomly choose the 'wrong' one (wrong from BTG's point of view).

Although, if you have the reel band info. It would be quite easy for you to do a few spins, and trace where the next symbol came from

 

[Reelsoffun]

Maybe the next symbol to drop, isn't the next one on the reel band. But the 3rd or 4th one or whatever. But I'd expect it to be a fixed offset, which would be more 'calculateable', rather than a random one, where it could randomly choose the 'wrong' one (wrong from BTG's point of view).

Although, if you have the reel band info. It would be quite easy for you to do a few spins, and trace where the next symbol came from

How is a fixed point more calculate able than a random event? both are calculable.

But like all these threads going in circles there is many ways to do it and only the provider knows for certain exactly how its doing the math, we can only make informed guesses and speculations.

 

[Balthazar]

That would be way too complicated to do, from a programming point of view.
Plus, what about wins of 15.1x and 15.2x which may be possible. But maybe 15.7x or15.9x wins aren't possible and then there are all the other permutations 1.x 2.x ...... 99.x ......, and what about the zero paying spins? How would they be derived from an RNG? if that RNG produced numbers between 0.0 and 1000.9?

Hmm? RNG says win is 0 then the game engine makes a 0x win? From a programming POV it's no more complicated than predetermined outcomes like Jammin Jars. It's not like someone individually created every single outcome on Jammin Jars by moving the symbols around, they put in parameters and let the game create the light show.

Same thing here...except that Megaways would do it live instead of pre-recorded.

As for DHV it's not a Megaways slot.

 

[toph11]

i've been playing a lot of noble rats, microgaming version of megaways
amazing slot
but they released betty's full service
this thing is a sack of shi*
it's basically extra chilli but you win the gamble more often
but the bonus is so bad, it gives dead spins so damn much
i might do a few deposits to give it a chance but it is the worst slot i ever played
also it gave me max 'megaways' a few times, all of them paid less than 1x

 

[brianmon]

Hmm? RNG says win is 0 then the game engine makes a 0x win? From a programming POV it's no more complicated than predetermined outcomes like Jammin Jars. It's not like someone individually created each single outcome on Jammin Jars by moving the symbols around, they put in parameters and let the game create the light show.

Same thing here...except that Megaways would do it live instead of pre-recorded.

As for DHV it's not a Megaways slot.

So the chance of a zero paying spin is 1 in a 1000, or whatever the upper number is??
I've never programmed slots. But I do have quite a lot of programming experience. So I can easily appreciate how complicated it would be to write algorithms to produce winning combinations based on an x win amount, especially with a megaways slot, where there are the follow up cascades to take into account too.
It would be, and is, much easier to use either (weighted) reel bands or pre-determined sequences (as with jammin jars)
I'm pretty sure @trancemonkey would confirm this

As far as Jammin Jars goes... Obviously no one sits and individually creates each sequence.
Initially, the outcomes are generated randomly, billions of them. Then winning sequences and losing sequences are sorted and selected to be added to a database of 'spins', maybe a million or so. Certain outcomes, which pay way too high will be discarded. But by adding the appropriate number of zero paying, low paying, medium paying and high paying wins to the database, the correct RTP can be achieved. The RTP will be the total of all the individual wins added together, then divided by the total number of database entries multiplied by 100

When the game is played, the database entry corresponding to the number the RNG produces is selected. Each database entry contains all the necessary information to playback each 'spin'
So the game, when played doesn't create any lightshow, it merely plays back the selected pre-determined sequence of events. Which is why players have witnessed absolutely identical sequences, producing identical wins. (see the JJ thread). This would be VERY unlikely to happen if the game was randomly generating the sequence based on a win amount

I'm sure @trancemonkey would be able to explain it better, although IIRC he already has done in the JJ thread

As far as DHV goes, as I already posted in reply to Jono... I wasn't comparing DHV with Bonanza. I was just pointing out that the guy who claimed to have extracted the reel bands for Bonanza, was probably genuine. Since he'd already posted the reel bands for DHV

 

[trancemonkey]

Cheers Dave!

From my new understanding then I was sort of originally right when I started that there are not FIXED reels bands as such, they are newly generated each spin, hence the 'pick' system you describe.

This is what I meant when I said due to the combinations possible each outcome you could not have EVERY possible outcome "physically" fixed on a wrap around reel band, no way

I am of course referring to Megaways mechanics and not standard line or 243 ways slots.

No they are most definitely not made up on the fly. They are most definitely fixed bands.

 

[nikantw]

I didnt say that about Bonanza... which I am 100% certain uses reel bands. The reel bands that you see spinning may be for show, but those that land in view are picked from true reel bands.

Can I ask again now what you think is the potential of Bonanza?
I mean, by now, every player knows not to expect much more than 5000x.

But what do you think about the published early 14,000x? Can it do more, even in 1 in trillions of trillions of trillions spins?

 

[trancemonkey]

Can I ask again now what you think is the potential of Bonanza?
I mean, by now, every player knows not to expect much more than 5000x.

But what do you think about the published early 14,000x? Can it do more, even in 1 in trillions of trillions of trillions spins?

I have no idea to be honest without knowing precisely how the feature works... but my guess is that the 14,000x we saw is very very unlikely to be beaten.

Put it like this, there is no way a full screen of top symbol is available at any multiplier, or indeed of any symbol...

 

[trancemonkey]

I saw a feature on Eye of Horas neverpays, where all the premium symbols got turned into the best one with 8 spins left, and it didnt manage a single 6 or 5 or 4oak. In the 15 or so previous spins 12 of them had stupendous 6oaks of different premium symbols and loads of 5oaks. Its not done on reel strips I think more like predetermined.

Of course it's done on reel strips, but each level HAS to have different reel strips

 

[nikantw]

I have no idea to be honest without knowing precisely how the feature works... but my guess is that the 14,000x we saw is very very unlikely to be beaten.

Put it like this, there is no way a full screen of top symbol is available at any multiplier, or indeed of any symbol...

I understand.

What about Pragmatic (I know you "love" them )?
That insane 120,000x or 96,000x on games like Davinci, Peking Luck and Buffalo King?
In my view they are actually possible, just very very very very very very hard to get.

 

[trancemonkey]

I understand.

What about Pragmatic (I know you "love" them )?
That insane 120,000x or 96,000x on games like Davinci, Peking Luck and Buffalo King?
In my view they are actually possible, just very very very very very very hard to get.

I would hate to think that any company advertises a win that is not either theoretically possible (if games are calculable) or have been seen in a simulation (where games are not calculable). Casinos almost always want to know their max liability...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've played quite a lot of PP slots in the last couple of months, but only their lower-medium variance stuff. For the UHV ones where they've got massive top prizes, you generally need to the stars to align in such a fashion that we must be talking in the long billions to one of actually hitting them.

For example there's one where the multiplier increases on every spin of the free spins round, and to hit the advertised top prize you need to get a full screen of the top paying symbol on the last spin of the free spins round when the multiplier is maxed.

 

[trancemonkey]

I've played quite a lot of PP slots in the last couple of months, but only their lower-medium variance stuff. For the UHV ones where they've got massive top prizes, you generally need to the stars to align in such a fashion that we must be talking in the long billions to one of actually hitting them.

For example there's one where the multiplier increases on every spin of the free spins round, and to hit the advertised top prize you need to get a full screen of the top paying symbol on the last spin of the free spins round when the multiplier is maxed.

But even a 1 in 50 billion chance is possible

Personally I don't like advertising a prize that is so unlikely it may as well not be shown.

I would probably not want to show a prize that had a less than 1 in 100m chance of happening.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But even a 1 in 50 billion chance is possible

Personally I don't like advertising a prize that is so unlikely it may as well not be shown.

I would probably not want to show a prize that had a less than 1 in 100m chance of happening.

Yes sorry should have been clearer, in essence I am agreeing with nikantw that all the the massive stated top prizes on PP slots are indeed achievable, but are vanishingly unlikely to be hit, even by UHV slot odds.

Then again Immortal Romance got quite a bit of mileage out of its well known five reel Wild Desire max win, and I'd like to know what the odds of hitting that were

EDIT - Ahhh, gentler times, when 13,000x stake (or whatever it was) was considered an insane win!

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes sorry should have been clearer, in essence I am agreeing with nikantw that all the the massive stated top prizes on PP slots are indeed achievable, but are vanishingly unlikely to be hit, even by UHV slot odds.

Then again Immortal Romance got quite a bit of mileage out of its well known five reel Wild Desire max win, and I'd like to know what the odds of hitting that were

EDIT - Ahhh, gentler times, when 13,000x stake (or whatever it was) was considered an insane win!

Im not sure how long this "race to the top" in terms of max prize can go on for. Some casinos just simply can't afford the kind of liability that comes with a DOA2 type game. If someone hits that on max stake they would likely be bankrupt (hence most have a max payout rule...)

Also, the RTP that goes in to the max prize gets taken away from the rest of the game, so these stupidly high prizes only really make sense if you run at a high enough RTP to be able to give them without screwing the rest of your game in to the ground...

Of course, anything is possible BUT it gets harder with lower RTPs. And we all know which direction RTPs will likely go / are going.

 

[Slottery]

Im not sure how long this "race to the top" in terms of max prize can go on for. Some casinos just simply can't afford the kind of liability that comes with a DOA2 type game. If someone hits that on max stake they would likely be bankrupt (hence most have a max payout rule...)

Also, the RTP that goes in to the max prize gets taken away from the rest of the game, so these stupidly high prizes only really make sense if you run at a high enough RTP to be able to give them without screwing the rest of your game in to the ground...

Of course, anything is possible BUT it gets harder with lower RTPs. And we all know which direction RTPs will likely go / are going.

These extreme HV games with massive wins which are like stated above, off from "normal" winnings start probably soon reach their limits in these how far they can go. Think players soon start to ask question, "Why i'm looking hours and hours deadspins and if lucky getting some monster win once a year?" Theres' national lottery, Euromillions and loads of other forms of this kind of "gambling".

Now already quite some times we see new releases which have extreme potential all the way till XXXXXX but these are wins what 99.846% of players never see but in youtube videos.