Me no like InterCasino VP changes

[Casinomeister]

From Ryan, who was unable to post in the forum:

We would like to once again apologise for the inconvenience and agitation the change to our single hand Double Video Poker has caused.

We can only admit once again that keeping the 'Certified Over 100% Return' message is an error on our part. Whilst in certain circumstances combined with comp points and bonuses this 100% return is correct, this can still be misleading and not the most appropriate statement to make.

We have amended our pay out rates to be in line with Land Based Casinos which at 99.11% payout, offer some of the best odds available around.

We're committed to removing the statement from the above mentioned game as soon as possible which we hope will be in the next 48 hrs.

 

[Casinomeister]

..Oh, and who added that stupid poll to this thread, with only the one-sided questions?
How about 'They were paying out over 100% so changed it quickly to correct this, but forgot to change the graphics'!

I agree - it's a one-sided silly-ass poll. Poll closed since it's really not very constructive.

Some of you guys are making me become a real authoritarian. What's up with that, eh?

 

[sdaddy]

As for the email, I haven't personally seen it yet. I would like to see the exact wording myself before saying anything further there.

I saw it posted at the beginning of the other locked thread.

 

[Casinomeister]

I saw it posted at the beginning of the other locked thread.

You mean the thread I "upgraded" to closed.

 

[Weedlayer]

...We have amended our pay out rates to be in line with Land Based Casinos which at 99.11% payout, offer some of the best odds available around...

Online casinos ought to be better than land based. Intercasino has no free cocktails, big-name entertainers, or buffets etc. And yes I get bonuses from land-based casinos as well as the loyalty club. Intercasino has a inferior offering here.

 

[zrap]

Lets put aside the 100% label and give intercasino the benefit of the doubt on that issue.


How about the fact that they increases the HOUSE ADVANTAGE by over 700% and then they sent out emails to tell players about the new and improved game! SO for the average player who doesn't have WinPoker they are intentional trying the deceive them into thinking it is a better game.


Sort of like having a mentally retarded employee and meeting with him to tell him he did such a good job he will be promoted and now receiving 80% of last years salary as his new pay rate!

Intercasino thinks all players are retards and caruso gets banned for pointing it out. Classic.

 

[amandajm]

The barred Caruso is the second highest player poster on this forum after JPM.

I think a discussion, on what is acceptable to post here is, might be in order. I do agree Bryan, your tone in increasing instances has become one of an authoritarian figure lately.

The bitchin newsletter, the bitchin webcast and the adult language used in it, the strong opinions for years. You have sliced and diced many. Mary has sliced and diced many here. Caruso posts in line with the site theme imo.

He just disagrees with changing the site thread title and moving cloud stuff away.

What does a member do if they disagree with you Bryan? Can they speak up without fear of being cast out?

 

[thelawnet]

Exactly. This is not some clip joint trying to intentionally deceive players. It's a poorly worded email (which I haven't seen either - and I'm a big time VP player there) and an issue about some 100% certifications that need to be removed -- which in fact have been there for quite a while. I never paid them much attention.

I agree with Spear - it's a silly mistake, but not one for grabbing the pitchforks and torches.

While I agree that the 100% payout was most likely a mistake that wasn't updated, the email was unacceptable, and they are still weaseling around it. The email had the effect of deceiving players into thinking the game had improved, when in fact it had got substantially worse, and given that they say they had employed a gaming expert, they are basically saying that they knew full well that the payout was worse, but they chose to claim that the game was better.

I don't see how given the statements made, there can be any interpretation of this under than an intent to conceive. They knew it was worse - the maths expert told them that - but they claimed they had made it better.

The email was not so much poorly worded as totally wrong: the point of the email was to purport that the game had been improved, when it had been made worse.

And to make matters worse, they have still not apologised for what did in fact have the effect of deceiving players (of course one cannot know the intent with absolute certainty). The second statement by Ryanh via Bryan at 6:05 UTC is talking about this 100% payout issue and still doesn't mention the fact that the email claimed that the game had been improved, when in fact there is not one person outside Intercasino who believes that a game that went from even to substantial casino advantage is an improvement of that game, and there is no question that the email had the effect of making players think that the game had been improved.

 

[tal23]

Not too happy with the email,
but in all fairness they didn't
say it had been improved for the player.....

 

[bo_ho]

Decieved? No, not me. If you're going to play VP you better know strategy and EV or you are on a fools errand.

I was, however, extremely dissapointed and a little sad after reading this email. I was disappointed a casino I had enjoyed and trusted for so many years was giving it's loyal customers so little credit by pushing this as an "imrovement". I was sad because with land casinos and online poker treating me so well this is the last online casino I was even playing...and now I'm done.

 

[CJack]

Originally Posted by Ryan
...We have amended our pay out rates to be in line with Land Based Casinos which at 99.11% payout, offer some of the best odds available around...

I play in many land based casinos in many areas.
Chicago area, New Enland, Missouri, Illinois, Nevada, North Carolina. Mississippi,, Louisiana, Wisonsin, Colorado casinos for sure offer games @ 99.8% and higher.

Even crappy old Harrahs in St Louis has at leat a dozen machines at 99.5+.
Plus free meals, daily cashback and snail mail cashback.

The real point is you should have just changed the paytable and kept out of giving reasons. We are used to this treatment. Too many expert VP players on this forum to snow.

PS: The other VP games at IC are below standards for Internet and land base casinos.

 

[spearmaster]

Online casinos ought to be better than land based. Intercasino has no free cocktails, big-name entertainers, or buffets etc. And yes I get bonuses from land-based casinos as well as the loyalty club. Intercasino has a inferior offering here.

Although I partially agree with this statement, you have to put things in perspective.

When playing at land-based casinos, you generally incur additional costs from:

* transportation
* lodging
* food
* tips

- none of which you would incur at online casinos unless you considering paying for food out of your own refrigerator a cost The only additional cost you incur at online casinos that you wouldn't incur at land-based casinos are:

* electricity
* costs of transferring money by courier or wire

With comps, land-based casinos rarely give you cash bonuses or incentives, although of course some do on occasion. Online casinos give you piddly loyalty points and can't comp your meals, though.

So, if you look at costs incurred, it's definitely much more expensive to play at a land-based casino. And comp-wise, although it may look a little imbalanced, it's actually pretty reasonable though I think online operations need to think about giving back more than 0.1% in cashback/loyalty points.

 

[scrollock]

Sort of like having a mentally retarded employee and meeting with him to tell him he did such a good job he will be promoted and now receiving 80% of last years salary as his new pay rate!

Intercasino thinks all players are retards and caruso gets banned for pointing it out. Classic.

i has something along these lines with william hill a few years back, they brought in some "improved contracts" for certain employees, we were told that 25% of employees signing them would be given pay rises of inflation or even greater.

it doesnt take a genius to work out that meant 75% of employees would be getting a pay cut, for my own personal situation i worked out the total loss for me would be between 5k-10k PA depending on how much overtime i would of done. not to even mention that the new contract would have meant an increase in workload for me.

more work, for less pay I DONT THINK SO!!!

yet they tried to sell this to me as if they were doing a favour.

 

[-z-]

I find this discussion about the upgrade deception or.. "UpgradeGate" really funny. Has noone seen the homepages of these casinos? Nearly every casino homepage claims to be giving away "FREE MONEY".

As if there's some guy just inside the casino handing out wads of cash.

A few casinos hide their Wagering Requirements so deeply in their website that you _absolutely must_ know that a wagering requirement exists in order to find it... Like drilling a oil well and trying to hit a Quarter buried 10 miles underground.

And many many bonuses are so sticky that there is no possible way to _get_ this "free money".

To accuse casinos of being deceptive is like accusing politicians of being deceptive.. or accusing puppys of being adorable.

You wanted this email?

- The people in charge of Un-Casino were overcome with greed over the weekend while counting their money and sipping delicious beverages near the pool. Due to this recent development Un-Casino has decided to lower the payouts a little on Video Poker. Have a nice day. -

-z-

P.S. I hope this Level 20 independent Math wizard can cast -Deflect Forum Noise- and -Golden Payout Logo Disentegration-

 

[scrollock]

Although I partially agree with this statement, you have to put things in perspective.

When playing at land-based casinos, you generally incur additional costs from:

* transportation
* lodging
* food
* tips

- none of which you would incur at online casinos unless you considering paying for food out of your own refrigerator a cost The only additional cost you incur at online casinos that you wouldn't incur at land-based casinos are:

* electricity
* costs of transferring money by courier or wire

With comps, land-based casinos rarely give you cash bonuses or incentives, although of course some do on occasion. Online casinos give you piddly loyalty points and can't comp your meals, though.

So, if you look at costs incurred, it's definitely much more expensive to play at a land-based casino. And comp-wise, although it may look a little imbalanced, it's actually pretty reasonable though I think online operations need to think about giving back more than 0.1% in cashback/loyalty points.

whenever i shop over the internet i dont expect to pay more just because i have saved the time and expense of buying it from a real shop.

 

[Casinomeister]

The barred Caruso is the second highest player poster on this forum after JPM.

I think a discussion, on what is acceptable to post here is, might be in order. I do agree Bryan, your tone in increasing instances has become one of an authoritarian figure lately.

The bitchin newsletter, the bitchin webcast and the adult language used in it, the strong opinions for years. You have sliced and diced many. Mary has sliced and diced many here. Caruso posts in line with the site theme imo.

He just disagrees with changing the site thread title and moving cloud stuff away.

What does a member do if they disagree with you Bryan? Can they speak up without fear of being cast out?

Jeeze amandajm, give it a break. You know exactly where I stand on this issue and I have been more than fair with caruso. Please don't derail the thread with a "poor caruso - bad bad meister" rant. His account was suspended by the way - not banned. There is a big difference.

I've already explained why his account was suspended, it had nothing to do with being critical with Intercasino, Cloud, Grand Virtual, (insert name of casino/software provider here), or forum member. It had everything to do with the language he uses and how he is critical. Please don't confuse his method of criticism with the "adult" language that many of us chose to use. You should spend some time, do some searches and look where I have warned him publicly on his posting style.

What does a member do if they disagree with you Bryan? Can they speak up without fear of being cast out?

C'mon, give me a freakin' break. I've been running this board successfully for seven years, and I think I know what I'm doing. I welcome criticisms - you know this. Please don't insinuate that there is some "authoritative" control freak censoring or upgrading member's accounts to "banned". I think the majority of posters know how to communicate and what is acceptable to post and what is not. When people get out of line, it's my duty to let them know. I am obliged to other forum members and to the integrity of the board to do this. In seven years, I have rarely banned anyone for disagreeing with me. And if so, it's by the method that they choose to disagree with me - not the disagreement itself.

Let's keep this on topic please. Thanks!

 

[Casinomeister]

PS: The other VP games at IC are below standards for Internet and land base casinos.

What about Intercasino's Deuces Wild 3:1 for a flush - the norm is 2:1, isn't it?

Ryan, please don't change that

 

[luanwang]

My God

What about Intercasino's Deuces Wild 3:1 for a flush - the norm is 2:1, isn't it?

Ryan, please don't change that

The return of "Deuces Wild" is only 97.97%. Please be noted, in Intercasino only 4:1 for "4 of a kind" (norm is 5:1) which has a high probability of 6.494% when flush has only 1.68% probability.

I'm so suprised and so sorry to hear such untutored word from Casinomeister.

 

[spearmaster]

whenever i shop over the internet i dont expect to pay more just because i have saved the time and expense of buying it from a real shop.

And neither should you necessarily expect more I'm just putting things in perspective - there's give and take in each case.

 

[CJack]

What about Intercasino's Deuces Wild 3:1 for a flush - the norm is 2:1, isn't it?

Ryan, please don't change that

The trouble with amateurs is they are amateurs. They do not look at everthing.

ICs VP:

All Ammerican - 98.11% - This game at 100.7% in MO and at 99.6% all over the internet and land based

Deuces Wild - 97.97%
Deceptive on the W-Royal. This game at 98.9% everywhere (Illinois deuces or Ugly ducks). Many casinos have 99.72% (Not So Ugly Ducks).

Double Bonus - I still had the old version ??

Jacks or Better - 98.25% - Deceptive on 4-OAK and StrFL
Game at 99.54% many casinos.

Joker Poker - 97.95%
Many versions of this game available at 98.9%. You can find this game at 99.8% in the 2-pair version (not Atlantic City).

 

[thelawnet]

The trouble with amateurs is they are amateurs. They do not look at everthing.

ICs VP:

All Ammerican - 98.11% - This game at 100.7% in MO and at 99.6% all over the internet and land based

Deuces Wild - 97.97%
Deceptive on the W-Royal. This game at 98.9% everywhere (Illinois deuces or Ugly ducks). Many casinos have 99.72% (Not So Ugly Ducks).

Double Bonus - I still had the old version ??

Jacks or Better - 98.25% - Deceptive on 4-OAK and StrFL
Game at 99.54% many casinos.

Joker Poker - 97.95%
Many versions of this game available at 98.9%. You can find this game at 99.8% in the 2-pair version (not Atlantic City).

And this is exactly why Intercasino's email and ryanh's subsequent explanation are bullshit.

Total and utter bullshit.

Real explanation: they wanted to make more money on Double Bonus Poker. Fine, ok, a business decision for them, go ahead.

Their explanation: the game was 'upgraded' to make it 'more realistic' and like real casinos. This is clearly total bullshit; in the first place, the full pay double bonus casino game is 10/7/5 double bonus, which has an optimal return of 100.17%.

Secondly, they clearly don't care about having paytables like those in the casinos, because none of their video poker games follows a paytable you will commonly find in a casino. The Jacks or Better game, which is a casino stable, and good for both player and casino, as it is 99.54% payout and easy to play. What do they have? A screwed up 9/6 paytable with short pays on four of a kind and straight flush. Will you find that paytable in a casino? I think not.

So clearly they don't care about realism, as they haven't done what every other major online casino does, and offer 9/6 Jacks or Better, and it's just a stupid marketing claim.

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm so suprised and so sorry to hear such untutored word from Casinomeister

Jesus, I was trying to be funny - chill out.

The trouble with amateurs is they are amateurs. They do not look at everthing

You talkin' to me? 'scuse me, you talkin' to me? I know you ain't talkin' to me.

What am I now? Some cyber punching bag? Sheesh!

 

[paul1]

Jesus, I was trying to be funny - chill out.


You talkin' to me? 'scuse me, you talkin' to me? I know you ain't talkin' to me.

What am I now? Some cyber punching bag? Sheesh!

I also thought that sounded just a wee bit arrogant. I don't think anyone who is knowledgeable about the finer points of video poker should look down their nose at people who aren't. And besides, if everyone was an expert, there probably wouldn't be any video poker offered in the first place.

I think this whole ordeal is way overblown. I've known a lot of gamblers in my life. It seems like most of them are always cynical, and cannot be pleased. We should all thank our lucky stars that there are some good places like Intercasino to play at.

 

[paul1]

So clearly they don't care about realism, as they haven't done what every other major online casino does, and offer 9/6 Jacks or Better, and it's just a stupid marketing claim.

Hi thelawnet. Some of the full pay schedules you mention, are probably really in the minority in real world casinos. The full pay 10-7 double bonus certainly is. There are far more "short-pay" schedules in all the casinos I have been at. Many people are not looking for full pay and they sit down at a short pay machine when there is actually a full pay right next to them. That is the reality of the world. And be thankful that it is like that.

I am not a VP expert but I do find the subject very interesting and I enjoy the game.

But like you said, it's just a "stupid marketing claim." And hence, I don't think it is any big deal. I really can't believe the big stink this has created. For the more discriminating players, just look for the better opportunities out there. No biggie.

 

[gfkostas]

Jesus......Bassmeister you do get some body shots in this thread

My 2 cents:
The facts the way I see them are that Intercasino has indeed screwed up with their 100% logo however the manager made clear that that was an honest mistake that will be taken care of asap.Further more the accused email is without exaggeration a bit misleading as well and I would like to believe that they won't use the same inappropriate words again to describe a change on a particular game.I don't think that Intercasino tried to deceive anyone here but yes their mistake was silly and frivolous in my opinion but who hasn't made silly mistakes in their life? Nobody is perfect nor any business out there HOWEVER If they continue to do similar silly mistakes frequently then we won't be able to forgive them so easily because continuous mistakes do border to incompetence in my estimation.

As far as CM goes I believe that the guy has shown what he is and what he is not for years now and those who don't know him good enough to know what i mean too bad.The fact that he has a site which is commited to help people for FREE is enough for me to believe that he has some qualities as a human that you don't usually see today.That kind of attitude of being detached from
'what's in it for me' when helping others is really something we should all try to adopt.Am not suprised at all he's business is going well.For me everyone who's on the top didn't just land there.A selfish authoritarian figure wouldn't last long.I don't think he would be recognized a quality watchdog by many had he been the way some of you want him to appear.We should all appreciate what he's doing for us especially when we don't pay a damn cent for his services.
I truly believe that if someone doesn't like how this place runs should really ask himself what he's doing here rather than having an attitude which says: 'If you could run this place the way 'I' think you should then I could like you better'

and no i ain't licking nobody ass here.Just saying what I think