Mayan Fortune forfeits deposit and winnings

erique1977

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Location
Holland
This bad I have never seen it before:

After signing up June 14th I deposited $50, got $150 welcome bonus. The next day I cashed out $471.

A week later, they asked for documents. I sent them. So far so good. Then they wanted me to clarify why my passport is Dutch while I lived in Sweden. I told them that I was temporarily located in Sweden for my job and felt I should have registered on my current address. Their reply:

"Thank you for clearing this up for us. Your documents will be reviewed by the security department and once they are approved your cash out will be processed."

Then they called me to verify my account details yet another time. I was told everything should be ok at that time.

Today I got this email:

Dear XXX

Regarding your locked account.
Your account has been reviewed by the Fraud & Security department.
We're sorry but this account will remain inactive and your deposit and winnings have been forfeited.

Should the status change in the future you will be notified by email.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.


I asked them kindly if they could give me an explanation. Their reply:

Thank you for contacting us.

I am sorry to inform you but the casino reserves the right to not disclose investigation information to any one, without disclosing the reason why.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Have a nice day, and good luck!

Sincerely,

MayanFortune Customer Service


This is bad right? What should I try now? I mean, they cannot just seize my deposit and winnings without further explanation?
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
Hello,

Edit - the player has contacted me and I'm looking into this.

Rob
Rival Technical Support
Is confiscating winnings and deposits your normal business practice? I could understand winnings, but the deposit as well??
 

xengo

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Location
netherlands
This is what I got from Pantasia yesterday.

Dear ....,

Thank you for contacting us.

regarding your locked account.
Your account has been reviewed by the Fraud & Security department.
We're sorry but this account will remain inactive and your deposit and winnings have been forfeited.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Have a nice day, and good luck!

Sincerely,

Pantasia Customer Service


They called me on the phone last week to verify my account and they told me everything was ok now and I would be paid this week. Instead I got this email.
Really strange and no reply any more.
I asked them why as they did close my account.
And how it is possible that they can do such a thing.
Hope we can solve this problem in a nice way.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
With both players being Dutch, I wonder if that will be part of the casino's reply? I sure hope it is not going to be similar to the recent CoolCat thread, the one relating to all the players who signed up at CoolCat through that huge Dutch forum.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
With both players being Dutch, I wonder if that will be part of the casino's reply? I sure hope it is not going to be similar to the recent CoolCat thread, the one relating to all the players who signed up at CoolCat through that huge Dutch forum.
Well, it is starting to look that way.
At least CoolCat refunded deposits (to some at least), and this was ALL deposits.

The player who registered from Sweden did the RIGHT THING. This has been brought up in the past that it is where you are PLAYING FROM NOW that is the address you should use, provided that you have some degree of permanence with utility bills etc.
We had the case of a player posted to Malaysia on a temporary basis, but who was a US citizen. They were told they should change their details to match their CURRENT location. The point being that where you are determines how the casino contacts you - you need to be reachable.
In the case of "forbidden" countries, again it is where you REGISTER & PLAY from that counts, not where you were born - or are casinos using whichever interpretation allows them to screw over the player that has "offended" them.
A US player who moves here to the UK, and has a permanent address, could open a Neteller account & play freely online UNTIL they returned to the US, at which point the casinos & Neteller would have to close their accounts.

A Dutch person who works here in the UK (or Sweden), would have to obey, and benefit from, UK (or Swedish) laws & rules until such time as they returned to Holland.

Lasseters demonstrate this, I can NOT PLAY THERE if I happen to be in Australia visiting my Uncles, but I can play there normally from home, and any other country that allows (or tolerates) the activity within it's borders.


Maybe anyone who was born Dutch, has Dutch DNA, once worked there, etc should NOT PLAY ONLINE, and thus avoid what is increasingly looking like a "witch hunt" by casinos against the Dutch nation. Instead, launch a campaign to teach the whole world Dutch, so we can all read "that" forum:D
 

RobRival

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Location
Canada
Casinomeister procedure

Hello everyone,

To be clear - I am simply forwarding this information to the casino manager.

In the meantime, I've been on this forum long enough to know the rules, and so do most of you.

What is the procedure for filing a complaint? First, contact a rep. I might not be a casino rep but I can forward these to the manager. Was that done by either of these players? No. I have only been in contact with the manager on the first case, but is it odd at all to you that this the first player complaint against any Rival casino, and the player(s) in question don't try to follow the procedure outlined by the Casinomeister? They simply post inflammatory threads, without going through the recommended steps?

I can appreciate you wanting to automatically side with other players, but let's try and have a little respect for one another here, please.

Rob
Rival Technical Support
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Well,
The E-mails from the casino seem to indicate they are not prepared to discuss anything, they won't even say why the player has been treated this way, and this gives the player no chance to prove they are innocent of any "charges".
It is likely that they don't see contacting the rep as being any different (although it often is). The Pitch a Bitch service takes time, and players treated this way are enraged, and not likely to be patient.
This leaves venting in the complaints section for immediate gratification, even though this can make it harder to get the money later.

IF they are fraudsters, they will also resort to posting a complaint in the forum, knowing that any investigation by Bryan will only show them up.
Recent behaviour from a number of casinos has made it very likely that the player is being "shafted" rather than having really done something wrong.
Some casinos have even admitted that these "fraudsters" have simply played too well with a sign-up bonus, but have not actually broken any rules.

If casinos want the "respect" from players, they should stop using this high handed attitude against players who have simply played with skill, rather than like an idiot - and for those who HAVE broken one of the rules, explain why, don't hide behind "security", because much of this is Bullsh1te, and players can be told more than they are at present without affecting the operations of the fraud detection process.

Fraud IS on the increase, why?

Simple, the casino operators have widened their definition of "fraud" to include certain "playing styles". Fraud was originally about signing up with fake details, or opening several accounts with the right details, but only using the one they first win on, thinking the losing ones won't get noticed.

Fortune Lounge were a case in point, they voided winnings from around 4000 accounts, initially claiming fraud. It turned out that their definition of fraud included those players who had simply played to win with the bonus, rather than playing to last as long as possible without busting out (which itself used to be "fraud" when WR were generally lower than they are now).

Online casinos are the ONLY casinos that can so easily "mug" the player on their way off the premises, B&M casinos either have to ban the player from FURTHER play, or have enough evidence for "fraud" to have the player arrested and charged, and then it requires a court order to get the winnings back off the player. If they player is found guilty, they are punished, if innocent, their name is cleared. It is rare for a B&M casino to go this far, they normally just ban the player.
 

uungy

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Location
Planet Earth (I think)
Well,
The E-mails from the casino seem to indicate they are not prepared to discuss anything, they won't even say why the player has been treated this way, and this gives the player no chance to prove they are innocent of any "charges".
It is likely that they don't see contacting the rep as being any different (although it often is). The Pitch a Bitch service takes time, and players treated this way are enraged, and not likely to be patient.
This leaves venting in the complaints section for immediate gratification, even though this can make it harder to get the money later.

IF they are fraudsters, they will also resort to posting a complaint in the forum, knowing that any investigation by Bryan will only show them up.
Recent behaviour from a number of casinos has made it very likely that the player is being "shafted" rather than having really done something wrong.
Some casinos have even admitted that these "fraudsters" have simply played too well with a sign-up bonus, but have not actually broken any rules.

If casinos want the "respect" from players, they should stop using this high handed attitude against players who have simply played with skill, rather than like an idiot - and for those who HAVE broken one of the rules, explain why, don't hide behind "security", because much of this is Bullsh1te, and players can be told more than they are at present without affecting the operations of the fraud detection process.

Fraud IS on the increase, why?

Simple, the casino operators have widened their definition of "fraud" to include certain "playing styles". Fraud was originally about signing up with fake details, or opening several accounts with the right details, but only using the one they first win on, thinking the losing ones won't get noticed.

Fortune Lounge were a case in point, they voided winnings from around 4000 accounts, initially claiming fraud. It turned out that their definition of fraud included those players who had simply played to win with the bonus, rather than playing to last as long as possible without busting out (which itself used to be "fraud" when WR were generally lower than they are now).

Online casinos are the ONLY casinos that can so easily "mug" the player on their way off the premises, B&M casinos either have to ban the player from FURTHER play, or have enough evidence for "fraud" to have the player arrested and charged, and then it requires a court order to get the winnings back off the player. If they player is found guilty, they are punished, if innocent, their name is cleared. It is rare for a B&M casino to go this far, they normally just ban the player.
Brilliant post.

You have managed to put about 5 different threads into one!

Its about time casinos use proper terms and condtions, and react fairly to players. I am not saying if thats the case here, however as a player, casino's seem to put very ambiguous terms on their site so that they canclaim the player is acting "fraudly", which in fact in my view is a fraudlent behaviour of a casino.

The only casino that I know that is clear and fair is Crypto. Should you choose to play a bonus, they give you the code, which outlines CLEARLY the games allowed, and requirements. As far as I am concerened, the graphics of MG are pretty good, but they cant seem to invest in a real bonus viewer (as clear as crypto), they have a basic one, which many casinos sometimes say youhave to clear wagering and you cant forfeit the bonus (in the hidden terms) etc., which is once again where it gets confusing, only so that players can get whipped with!

If a casino has a problem, and suspecting fraud, whats wrong with telling the player "we have checked your IP etc." Why do they constantly hide under their "managing and financing departments" and claim that its "not our decision"?

I have had problems in the past, and if the casinos were to explain things, alote wouldnt happen, and thats why as soon as a casino answers like that, it looks as though you have something to hide.

I have posted in the past and had people claiming I am a fraudlent player, I respectably answered them and had nothing to hide, why cant the casinos do the same, and give some answers? if I am asked for any identification, I have to give it, but that doesnt work the other way.
 

xengo

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Location
netherlands
Hello everyone,

To be clear - I am simply forwarding this information to the casino manager.

In the meantime, I've been on this forum long enough to know the rules, and so do most of you.

What is the procedure for filing a complaint? First, contact a rep. I might not be a casino rep but I can forward these to the manager. Was that done by either of these players? No. I have only been in contact with the manager on the first case, but is it odd at all to you that this the first player complaint against any Rival casino, and the player(s) in question don't try to follow the procedure outlined by the Casinomeister? They simply post inflammatory threads, without going through the recommended steps?

I can appreciate you wanting to automatically side with other players, but let's try and have a little respect for one another here, please.

Rob
Rival Technical Support
Let me apologize for taking the wrong steps in to resolving my problems with this casino.
I guess I was too surprised what happened here.
Off course I want to resolve this in a nice manner and with respect.
 

RobRival

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Location
Canada
Hi everyone,

To answer your question - why do the casinos not tell the players exactly what set off the flags? Well this would simply assist any players attempting to defraud the casino in the future. "Well, such and such was OK but when we checked THIS, here is exactly where you made your mistake, so watch for that next time you try and get the casino." I think any honest player could see that that doesn't help the casinos in running a tight ship.

As for the Rival bonus system, it's quite clear. And as everyone knows, up until now there hasn't been a single complaint about Rival and its bonus system. Why? Because it's fair - it stops a player from receiving a bonus if (such and such) are detected. Does this prevent fraud? Unfortunately, no.

What is the scenario here? I don't know the specifics but I would appreciate if the procedure outlined by the Casinomeister is followed, as his steps are probably the best way to ensure a satisfactory outcome for the player. Players who bypass this and are here to simply bash a casino, well, what is the point of that you have to ask yourself.

Cheers,

Rob
Rival Technical Support
 
Last edited:

silkprint

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Location
Mass
Some people post these here to let other players know what I going on before having to PAB .
That's why this section is here in the first place .
 

erique1977

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Location
Holland
CocoaRob asked me to remove my post while this was being investigated. He also noted the procedure here on CM, which I did not know and I admit I should have prepared better.

I was planning to remove my post, but Rob replied again within the hour (which I appreciate, good service!) with quite bad news from the manager indicating that the Casino would never disclose why they think fraud was involved. This means that I will never be able to defend myself, it would just be my word against the casino's.

I honestly only have a single account at Mayan Fortune, played there for the first time, and did all according to T&C's. I am afraid I was not the only Dutch guy signing up in that period of time, and maybe the casino thinks I used fake names, addresses, etc. Again, I can only guess as they are not disclosing anything.

By the way, I agree with CocoaRob that Rivals bonus system is excellent, I liked the casino, software, cashier, etc...it was all very clear. I read good things about the group too, and it was therefore very surprising to see this happening....
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Just FTR Rob, I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't taking a side, nor forming an opinion, one way or the other. Simply mentioning the fact that both players were Dutch, and for whatever reason, this has been a problem in the past with a less than reputable casino. That was not meant to imply that your casino falls into that category at all.

I don't remember seeing a complaint posted re: any Rival casinos (besides some "new software" glitches), on this forum previously, so you must be doing something right. I am very glad that you take a pro-active role in the forum, I wish more casinos would follow your lead. And yes, you are right about the CM protocol thing. I'm usually one of the first members preaching to people here about following the rules, which is often mistaken as taking the casino's side.

All that being said, if a new poster does come and post their complaint...provided it is done in a respectful manner, and kept factual and free of anything nasty (and is legit and not someone just venting), then I also think they are entitled to do that. As Silk said, it keeps people informed. I'm not overly impressed that you asked one of the posters to remove their post. But again, you've always been very pro-active here and deserve some latitude as well. But generally, once something is posted, it should stay where it is.

Let's just see how this plays out, without anyone jumping the gun on anything.

Sorry for any misunderstanding Rob (on my part), many of us do appreciate your input here at the forum.
 

uungy

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Location
Planet Earth (I think)
Hi everyone,

To answer your question - why do the casinos not tell the players exactly what set off the flags? Well this would simply assist any players attempting to defraud the casino in the future. "Well, such and such was OK but when we checked THIS, here is exactly where you made your mistake, so watch for that next time you try and get the casino." I think any honest player could see that that doesn't help the casinos in running a tight ship.

As for the Rival bonus system, it's quite clear. And as everyone knows, up until now there hasn't been a single complaint about Rival and its bonus system. Why? Because it's fair - it stops a player from receiving a bonus if (such and such) are detected. Does this prevent fraud? Unfortunately, no.

What is the scenario here? I don't know the specifics but I would appreciate if the procedure outlined by the Casinomeister is followed, as his steps are probably the best way to ensure a satisfactory outcome for the player. Players who bypass this and are here to simply bash a casino, well, what is the point of that you have to ask yourself.

Cheers,

Rob
Rival Technical Support
Fair point, but instead of just closing the case, the company, if for whatever has thought that a customer has made up a bogus name, they can easily request ID, and judge accordingly, and instead of saying "the case is closed" why not request some information which could verify and explain the situation

I agree the bonus system in Rival are quite straightforward, my point was that the feeling here is that, similar to some companies (and MG was my example), casinos just aren't interested in explaining to the layman, and make it easy for all to ubderstand
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This is the big problem, if they say too much they help future fraudsters, but if they say too little it makes it impossible for the innocent player to understand what has gone wrong, and how to put it right.

The problem is also that the casino then close the case, claiming their is nothing to "put right", and that the accusation, guilt, and summary execution stands without leave to appeal.
This leaves to player having go outside the "official" appeal procedures, and then choosing one they feel might work the best.
Going to Bryan with a pitched bitch is likely to be the most effective, but is quite slow, as well as thorough. Bryan will also be privvy to much of this "secret" information used to initially determine the case.
Appealing to the forum may be satisfying, but not so effective unless the casino is shown to have a bad policy.
Eventually, members will want to hear the WHOLE story, not just the edited highlights. From this, they may be able to determine what might have gone wrong, and make suggestions, or maybe support the casino in the view that the story just does not add up.
In particular, the first player may have raised flags due to their current work and residence situation, not because of fraud. If the security team don't believe his explanation (Dutch passport was mentioned), they will brand him a fraud and that is that, no appeal etc.
If it is only an issue with a Dutch passport, then this is more likely an innocent player, as merely working in Sweden does not entitle one to a Swedish passport, this would entail claiming, and being accepted for, Swedish citizenship, and renouncing the Dutch passoport. Not something a temporary worker is going to do. There HAS to be more to this than the passport. The best way to get to the bottom of this is to Pitch a Bitch, slow it may be, but it will still be quicker than trying to figure out the problem without knowing some of the "secret" information.

Regulation of the industry will provide a third, and pretty effective, method of pursuing these issues. Taking the casino to civil court for the money. This would have to be based on damages & return of deposit. Current law does not allow for the pursuit of disputed winnings. It works both ways mind, a casino cannot sue for the return of winnings either, only for damages.
The new UK gaming regulations were to scrap this law, allowing claims against disputed wagers to be decided in the courts.
 

erique1977

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Location
Holland
Well, I'll start with a PAB.

My biggest concern is that the casino accuses me of fraud without further explanation, and I will never be able to prove that I only opened a single account at the casino. I sent documents with proof of ID and address, played from and with a single IP / computer / location. No flag-raising situations at all...
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Well, I'll start with a PAB.

My biggest concern is that the casino accuses me of fraud without further explanation, and I will never be able to prove that I only opened a single account at the casino. I sent documents with proof of ID and address, played from and with a single IP / computer / location. No flag-raising situations at all...
Something DID raise a flag, but it may not be your fault, it could be something someone else has done previously from your current temporary place of residence, and will be something you can never be expected to know about. It seems likely that the flag indicates you to be trying to open more than one account in order to get another bonus. It would be a question of what happened before you moved in. These problems often afflict players who register from the workplace, or a university, and is down to other users of the same internet connection.
It could be very difficult to prove your case, as you are guilty until you can prove your innocence, with the added burden of not being allowed to see the evidence against you. The ONLY solution is to enlist the help of an independent arbitration service, and this is why PAB, although likely to take a while, should give you the best possible outcome. If you HAVE tried something dodgy, this too will come out, so PAB is not without risk. Innocent players should ALWAYS PAB, as failure to do so after making a forum fuss tends to lend the impression that you had "tried something", and just want to move on to the next victim. If you PAB, players here will believe you are sincere, and could even support you if the PAB goes against you provided you put up a good case. The system is NOT PERFECT, there ARE cases where honest players get tarred with the fraud accusation, and some NEVER get justice, and may remain bitter and go on to say "to hell with it, might as well do the crime now I have served the time". This is one way high-handed action by casinos can create fraud attempts through bitterness.
This attitude prevails within UK "Fruit Machine" culture, as the operators shaft us when we play (70% payouts), and again if we dare to win (throw us off the premises even though we have done nothing wrong - depriving us of a wholesome hobby:rolleyes:).
 

RobRival

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Location
Canada
Statement from casino

Hello everyone,

Here is the latest from the casino manager

"The casino has decided to pay the accounts in question, despite what we believe to be sufficient evidence that the player opened accounts not under his own name. Additional changes to the casinos' policies will be made to ensure that this will not be permitted to occur again."

You'll probably have questions as to why the casino thinks this, and no doubt the player(s) in question will protest their innocence, but the casinos are not going to reveal how they reached their conclusions. Suffice to say, the information relevant to why the accounts were locked was not posted here.

To those involved - your accounts will be unlocked within 48 hours, at which point you can withdraw your balances.


Rob
Rival
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
They locked my accounts and did not give me any reasons, probably because of my posts here, anyway I thank them.:lolup:
 

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