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Mansion rob my neteller to take bonus back.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by siorton, Jul 27, 2007.

    Jul 27, 2007
  1. siorton

    siorton Dormant account

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Coatham Munderville
    Hi I'm an existing mansion customer who was offered a reload bonus for their new software via email.

    The terms stated

    Please note that the following games are excluded from your introductory special bonus: all forms of Roulette, Craps, Pontoon, all forms of Baccarat, Blackjack Switch and Sic Bo. | This offer is only available on MANSION Download Casino games. | Wagering requirements: You must wager your initial fund transfer 50 times before your bonus is released. Any misuse of this bonus will result in your account being closed and bonus funds being withheld

    I wagered 50x the bonus on one of the allowed versions of Blackjack cashed out an was paid. Great so far, but....

    The day after I was paid, Mansion removed everything they paid me from my neteller account, I've sent numerous emails and all they offer a very dubious explanation.

    In the event that MANSION believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through such abuse, then MANSION may, at its sole discretion, block, deny, suspend, withhold or withdraw any user from any bonus or promotion in such manner we deem fit.

    Now I played an allowed game and met wagering, I really dont see the problem. Can anyone suggest what I should do now as support are virtually ignoring my requests for a proper explanation?

    Thanks Simon
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Jul 27, 2007
  3. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
  4. Jul 27, 2007
  5. SlotsWizard

    SlotsWizard Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    I currently work for the Wizard of Odds
    Location:
    North of Antarctica
    It looks to me like they made an error in their T&C by only excluding Blackjack Switch (and not all forms of blackjack), and now they are punishing you for their mistake.

    It would have been wrong of them to deny paying you in the first place, but to pay you and then take it back is downright ruthless!
     
  6. Jul 27, 2007
  7. Tagdog

    Tagdog Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    England
    They have a rep here.

    If you click on casino contacts you will find the rep.
    Then send him a private message highlighting your problem.
     
  8. Jul 27, 2007
  9. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    also reflects badly on Neteller

    Once again, we have a case of Neteller allowing a merchant to take back a payment simply because of "bonus abuse." Recall there was a similar case with Prime Casino several weeks ago: Link.

    Already suffering from a loss in player confidence, it's unfortunate that Neteller continues to allow its merchants such unfettered access to customer funds.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Jul 27, 2007
  11. tristan727

    tristan727 Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    credit manager
    Location:
    London
    If true - I have utterly no doubt that Mansion would have also credited the respecitve Neteller accounts of losing Blackjack players, from this promotion.
     
  12. Jul 28, 2007
  13. wobble33

    wobble33 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    x
    Location:
    uk
    guys

    if this is true about neteller, this is the last dime i ever put in my neteller account! i once had a overpayment off mini vegas of 750, they put it into my neteller account by mistake. i got e mail off them to say they made a mistake, but they didnt ask neteller to take it straight out of my account without my knowledge! i actually paid these guys back via me redepositing the full sum into their casino, then they took it out of my casino account. if neteller are just giving casinos back the money out of your account, this is absolutely unbelievable! bryan needs to see what is going on here..:eek2:
     
  14. Jul 28, 2007
  15. NextToYou

    NextToYou Experienced Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Europe
    Rogue behaviour, PAB immediately.

    If they set certain terms and you follow them accordingly, then they have to pay the cash out in full and thats it! They can ban you after that from future play, if they wish. This is normal casinomeister procedure.
     
  16. Jul 29, 2007
  17. tristan727

    tristan727 Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    credit manager
    Location:
    London
    Why should they ban him, if they wish - he met perfectly fine the t&c's as published & agreed to. Of course, they can - but they should be rogued for it, if they or anyone did.
     
  18. Jul 29, 2007
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's TRUE! It IS possible to do this. Neteller have also attempted to cover this up. When Neteller are asked, they say the procedure exists, but can be used only under specific circumstances. This left the Prime Casino rep look like a dirty great liar, and he responded that there had been NO NEED to be deceptive to Neteller, as Neteller will reverse ANY payout made by a merchant provided the funds are still there in the player's account. HOWEVER, when it is the PLAYER who has had an "error", such as a "double deposit" due to the timeout problems, Neteller WILL NOT HELP other than to provide the transaction number - the PLAYER has to go to the casino and ask that the mistake be rectified.

    This is a case of one rule for US big guys, and another for you "peasants".

    Prime gave back the funds in the end, and eventually came to realise just how incredibly damaging this move was (and is still for them, as they are now being used as a case in point whenever this happens again).

    Prime's excuse was that terms WERE violated, but not picked up at audit. Mansion does not even have the benefit of this excuse. PUBLISHED terms were adhered to, and as a post wager bonus, there is NO "ABUSE" OPPORTUNITY, even on Blackjack.

    Mansion are still struggling for credibility after it was revealed that their VP games were "rigged" due to a programming error. They now use a recognised software platform, have got rid of their bizarre method of "promoting" bonuses to the top of a non-existent virtual chip stack just so they can be withdrawn (just seen as a sneaky trap by players), have compensated players affected by errors, and now invited EXISTING players to try the new download casino by being allowed the "new player" offer all over again.

    UK player takes up offer, complies with PUBLISHED terms, gets paid, and promptly gets robbed the next day.

    Credibility back to square 1 again for Mansion, AND in part for Playtech, who have this "thing" about UK players all being a bunch of "wise guys", "fraudsters", "generosity abusers", etc.

    If it is indeed that the terms had an error, again, like Prime, even the accounts department did not know what the correct terms were, so how can PLAYERS be expected to second guess what they really meant:mad:

    At least with UK Regulation, it may be easier to get refunds paid back to other deposit methods. Currently, the problem is that not using Neteller can mean accepting a cheque, which can be cancelled long before it even reaches you.

    Bank wire would be the best, as it is virtually impossible for the casino to "rob" the account after payment, as the player would be able to complain to the FSA about their BANK, who would have to foot the bill for erroneously giving the money back - and they would not risk it, and would seek clearance from the customer first, and would only accept transaction error or full blown fraud as reason to reverse the wire. For this to work though, play would need to be in UK Pounds, or currency exchange charges both ways would eat into the funds.

    Moneybookers are an alternative, but charge 30% more for bank transfers (1.30 against 1.00 at Neteller), and offer only PREMIUM RATE phone support (FREE with Neteller). Both also offer E-mail and online support, but this can be slow as requests are queued, and with a timeout error you want the transaction codes NOW, not next week by E-mail.
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Jul 30, 2007
  21. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    For the record, Jetset has tried repeatedly to get Neteller to publicly comment on its policy regarding these situations, but without any success. This is obviously something that Neteller would rather not talk about.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Jul 30, 2007
  23. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    THIS IS JUST STEALING !!!!!

    Hey All,

    Perhaps this is the ideal time to shed some light on the absolute lack of security inherently build into the neteller system.

    Lets compare neteller to another popular processor to highlight the differences and inherent risks.

    When you make a deposit with e.g. moneybookers, the merchant will send you to a page that is hosted by moneybookers to enter your account information. This means that the merchant, and the merchant's servers never know your account # and password, and thus can not make unsolicited charges to your account.

    With neteller however, you send your # and pw directly to the merchant, who then forwards it to neteller to perform the actual transaction. This means that every time you use your neteller account, you are giving a merchant all the information he needs to access your account. A malicious merchant can use this information to make unsolicited charges to your account ..

    Most likely this is what happened in this scenario, and I doubt that neteller is aware of the situation. (they just see it as another deposit to the merchant).

    This is obviously completely not acceptable, and more commonly referred to as STEALING. I would strongly suggest to file a complaint with neteller for these unsolicited charges, and I would recommend not to use neteller with any merchants that you do not trust 110% ..

    Greets,

    Enzo
     
    8 people like this.
  24. Jul 30, 2007
  25. Alexandre

    Alexandre Official Rep for Slotsmillion and Ladylucks webmeister

    Occupation:
    Owner
    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    :eek:

    Are you 100% sure about this ?
    I just can't believe it.
    If it's true, it means that Neteller has made the biggest mistake a money processor could make.
     
  26. Jul 30, 2007
  27. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    yes.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Jul 30, 2007
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    I think Enzo is 100% certain. 3Dice develop their own software, and would be in a better position than most to comment.

    This may NOT be what happened here, however there have been a number of complaints about players having large sums fraudulently removed from their accounts, with Neteller then claiming the player must have been "insecure", and not protected their information properly.

    Enzo's explanation blows this right out of the water - if MERCHANTS are given all the secure information to forward to Neteller, it means that the most likely means to perpetrate such fraud is for an unscrupulous employee (or indeed merchant), to make a copy of the information, and then use it to remove whatever they can from the account.

    The Prime case was different, they retrieved the payment as it was "made in error", and the funds still sat in the Neteller account. They did NOT have to offer any kind of justification to Neteller to prove they were entitled, it was enough that:-

    1) They put the funds into the players Neteller to start with
    2) There was still that amount in the player's Neteller at the time the chargeback was actioned.


    Jetset has indeed attempted to get a statement from Neteller on this, but they have been very evasive, and their replies have not matched the answers given by the Prime rep.
    The Prime rep was pretty much run out of town on this, as Neteller were pretty much implying that Prime somehow made a false claim to Neteller in order to recover the funds, and when Prime tried to say this was not the case as they did not have to supply any kind of case to Neteller, he just was not believed, and was pressed to produce the evidence & correspondence between themselves and Neteller, which they never did (or were able to).


    Perhaps 3Dice could clarify from the position of a merchant what they COULD do, and how, if they ended up in a similar position to Prime and Mansion, having paid a player and then thought they had been "had" by "advantage play". How easy would it actually be to simply grab the funds back out of the Player's Neteller account, without simply resorting to making a fraudulent deposit using the player's information. Do you simply ask Neteller to reverse the transaction, which they just do without needing any kind of reason.

    Second Question, how would 3Dice ACTUALLY deal with the above situation?
     
  30. Jul 30, 2007
  31. MANSION Casino

    MANSION Casino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Member Service Manager
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    Hi there,

    I am MANSION's Affiliate Programme manager but can escalate your problem to the relevant person.

    Please PM me and I will get the issue resolved for you ASAP.

    Regards,

    Chris
     
  32. Jul 30, 2007
  33. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Let me start by answering the second question as it may be useful for my response to the first one ..

    The first rule of thumb, repeated a million times on this and other forums .. is that if a player complies to the t&c of a promotion, he has to get paid. After that, its up to the casino to change their t&c, deny any further bonuses to the player in question, or even close the players account.

    If a player makes a 'mistake' and bets 100 when he intended to bet 10, that's his problem, and he has to deal with the consequences of his mistake. Exactly the same rule applies to the casino ..

    There are many things a casino can do to avoid getting in this situation, for 3Dice we have implemented a nr of things that help us making sure we don't end up in that spot :

    - Game restrictions are enforced by the software. (game not allowed -> player wont be able to start it)

    - Our bonuses are regulated by our loyalty program, and apart from some exceptions (SUB, Birthday, site-specific bonuses (e.g. GG)) all our bonuses come without WR or any other type of restriction.

    It's a sad thing to see the same issues pop up again and again .. one would think it cant be to difficult to learn from mistakes of others instead of insisting on hitting your head against the warning sign before reading it ..

    So, in conclusion, the casino's options are only to try and avoid a situation like this, and if it still occurs, the casino pays and thats the end of it. Many of the promotions out there are just problems waiting to happen, and only demonstrate how desperate some casino's are for players .. (two casino's that offer exactly the same product (sw), often have only the option of offering a crazier bonus than the next casino to provide in the needed diversification - marketing 101)

    We at 3Dice have never felt the desire to reverse a neteller withdrawal, although we have blocked users when our old bonus system was still in place, AFTER paying them.

    Back to the first question.

    It doesn't really matter what happened in the Prime & Mansion scenario as both possible scenario's only demonstrate netellers lack of professionalism and respect for the players security.

    Either the merchants in question abused the players account info to execute an unsolicited deposit, or Neteller showcases how little respect they have for the security of their users by executing the charge back without first contacting the player for a confirmation. (when, in the real world, you as customer do a charge back on e.g. VISA, the merchant is given the opportunity to present evidence that it was a legit operation (e.g. customer's signature)).

    I have no practical experience with neteller charge backs, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that neteller either made just one mistake (allowing merchants to have user login information), or two (not contacting users when chargebacks are executed.). Bad or double bad.

    Greets,

    Enzo
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2007
    5 people like this.
  34. Jul 30, 2007
  35. robing

    robing Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Gretna Green
    Hi Siorton, I have an identical problem to you. I Pmed the rep instead of openly discussing the matter and now I've bene promised that the bonus will be returned to me. The rep thusfar has dealt with matters quickly and efficiently :thumbsup: Be prepared to send plenty of ID to mansion.

    On the neteller front, I rang them up and went ballistic with them, they refused to budge saying they have some term and condition allowing them to send money back at the merchants request.
     
  36. Jul 30, 2007
  37. tristan727

    tristan727 Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    credit manager
    Location:
    London
    Hi Chris,
    To the rest of us this is an important issue here, which can't be resolved by the fixing of a single individual complaint - but by adressing your overall policy & actions...which appear here, if undisputed, rather agressive shall we say. If this is to be your ongoing policy - which judging by the immediate post above, seems to be happening in numerous instances now - should you not have a term on your website stating that you have the right, even when the casino was clearly the party in error (ie. games excluded in a promo not correctly detailed on the website) to take funds from people's online wallets/banks, without their permission?
     
  38. Jul 30, 2007
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    "some term condition":eek: Hardly a professional responce to such an important issue. They should give a proper reference to said term, and it should point out the conditions that allow this. "At the merchants request" is simply a carte blanch for the merchant to take funds from a players Neteller account just because they feel like it.
    Casinos go on about how "unfair" it is when PLAYERS make chargebacks because they are unhappy with the "entertainment" provided, yet a number of operators seem to think it OK to do this when they get upset, wrong footed, screw up, etc with a player.
    Sadly, now this is in the open, there is little shame in players doing chargebacks as there used to be, since the casinos deem such sharp practise absolutely fine when THEY feel the need. With the loss of stigma attached to player chargebacks, the casinos have made a rod for their own backs, and they are likely to see more, rather than less, attempts by players at making chargebacks. Although merchants can mount a defence, they have to PROVE that the player authorised the transaction AND received what was offered. In many cases, casino advertising shows offers in a false light, and this would be enough for a chargeback (it would be enough to show the initial offer as presented was misleading - such as important details missing at point of "sale", very common with casinos).
     

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