Mansion.com Keno Problems. Longish.

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
I have a serious problem with Mansion casino. I, like many other sports gamblers, recently made a deposit to play their money-back $1100 football bet promotion. I have limited experience in online casinos as I mostly stick to Poker and occasionally sports, though I have at times played. When I made the deposit for that sportsbook, I noticed I also had a 100% match bonus that had wagering requirements. I decided to give their video keno a try to clear it, as keno cleared at 100% whereas other games like blackjack only counted as 10% of the rate (the bet had to be wagered 10 or 11 times I believe, but at blackjack it would have to be 100 times). I noticed they also had a couple of sidebets available in addition to the main bet. 20 numbers were drawn, you could bet on the sum of those numbers being odd or even and that paid 1.95 to 1. You could also bet on the numbers being in the Upper or Lower half and that also paid 1.95 to win. They appeared to be your run of the mill roulette type bets;basically even money shots at a little short odds. This was the case for the odd/even, but as it turns out "pushes" (10 upper half, 10 lower half) lose on the upper/lower sidebet. This however is NOT made clear at all. The difference between the bets is that one is around a 3% house edge, like the roulette type bet it appears to be, and the other is close to a 20% house edge! And not only do they make this unclear and hide it in there to take advantage of unsuspecting users who think they are essentially coinflipping (the bet should pay much higher than 1.95 for 1 unless they are REALLY trying to trick you), but on the results sheets they mark the loser as a winner!



Here are 3 sample screenshots from the game:



The first screenshot is one I took live when i first realized what was happening. Notice the results sheet on the lower right. A starred result indiciates a win, no star = no win. On lines 1 and 7 you can see that the P is marked a winner when it is paired with a winning E. I played for a long time under the assumption that the P was pushing and refunding money because of this (I lost hundreds or thousands, I'm not sure--my overall loss is around $5000 so far at this game). In fast mode it's virtually impossible to see in the winnings line that I wasn't getting paid enough dollars--I was losing a lot in the session but I thought it was because I was getting unlucky, not getting shorted on these apparent pushes over and over and over again. Also note, and this is key, that if the Lower/Upper is a clear loser, and the O/E is a clear winner, one is marked a star and the other is NOT marked in star showing 1 win and one loss. The push, which is a loss, is still marked as a win in order to deceive a naive player like myself


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The second screenshot is from a hand history, not from a liveplay but it still shows in the same format. It is another example of a P marked a winner when paired with a winning E bet. Keep in mind when getting paid at 1.95 to, it is a losing proposition to win one and lose 1.

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The third screenshot is an example of two losers; pushing the U/L and losing the O/E. They are both marked as a loss.

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Now while I was playing before I lost tons and figured out way, it was all happening so fast I wasn't exactly sure what was going on. I was varying between high and low bets, betting as much as $400 per hand--Not just grinding out wagering requirements--I was actually doing serious gambling--And from those starred P's and unstarred P's I wasn't sure if it was breaking a tie with the O/E (i.e. the P was a win if the O/E bet won, but a loss if the O/E Bet lost) or if it was just starring referring to an overall result (i.e. a Push/Win being a win and Push/Loss being a loss)...but there is no reason to have expected those pushes were losing. It is against the spirt of the bet paying 1.95 for 1 for the Push to lose, it is against the spirit of calling it a push (a push means the bets are PUSHED back), if it's not a push it should be called a tie that loses. Because they elected to call it a push, I thought (naturally) that bets were getting pushed back.

I wrote an e-mail to support (they seem to be backed up I have not received a response yet) and spoke to chat. The customer service rep said this regarding my problem:

"
MANSION Paul N
Relating to your payout on the push we can confirm within the rules of Keno the rules clearly state that the push result is a house win. as these are the rules the casino can not award any money back as this is not an error or a software issue.
Please note that after further investigation our Casino department have found no errors within any of your games and all payouts have been made accordingly
MANSION Paul N
Relating to your payout on the push we can confirm within the rules of Keno the rules clearly state that the push result is a house win. as these are the rules the casino can not award any money back as this is not an error or a software issue.
Please note that after further investigation our Casino department have found no errors within any of your games and all payouts have been made accordingly"

To this I ask you to please review one of the screenshots. None of those buttons go to rules of the game. If you click on help, it brings up a help FAQ style for the whole casino; use the search function for keno and there are no keno rules. No other button to show the rules, all you have to work with is what I showed you. A bet that appears to be a normal 3% edge coin flip bet for the casino morphed into a very deceptive 20% house edge bet. Simply put, based on their interface the rules DO NOT clearly state that pushes lose. In fact, from the graphics as I showed above, it appears that pushes sometimes win and sometimes lose. And like I said, by definition a push "pushes your bet back", so if a "push" lost, it should be clearly marked as "pushes lose" otherwise it shouldn't be called a "push".

If this were a rogue or shady casino, I would not complain. If it was a smaller independant casino, I might not even complain. But Mansion is a large, well respected casino that Casinomeister accredits. This behavior should not be accepted by accredited, recommended casinos. All I'm asking for is for my pushed bets to be refunded as I never realized they weren't being refunded at the time they pushed. Asking for the old bets to be paid fairly as appeared I would still be at a 3% overall edge to house, it does not pose a past-posting problem for the casino to get those pushed bets refunded. It is something I'd have asked for even if I had somehow had a winning session at those odds.

I continued wagering during the weekend to show good faith. I played a lot of bets on their football exchange, and still couldn't get customer support to e-mail me back. I spoke again with Paul N tonight and the following is our conversation:

Welcome to Chat.Mansion.Com, MANSION Paul N will be right with you.
MANSION Paul N
RE in regards to service request #: 1-81263942
MANSION Paul N
hello
mrrickyg
hi , i was writing to see if i was going to hear back from the casino people ever about this, or if i should just go ahead and post on casinomeister?
MANSION Paul N
We are unable to view this SR at the moment (Our system is down)
mrrickyg
ok, should I email it again then right now?
mrrickyg
so i can get a prompt response?
MANSION Paul N
Our email system is slow at the moment. I would suggest Chat but maybe in a couple of hours
MANSION Paul N
Thank you for the chat
MANSION Paul N has ended the chat.
Welcome to Chat.Mansion.Com, MANSION Paul N will be right with you.
MANSION Paul N
RE in regards to service request #: 1-81263942
MANSION Paul N
hello
mrrickyg
hi , i was writing to see if i was going to hear back from the casino people ever about this, or if i should just go ahead and post on casinomeister?
MANSION Paul N
We are unable to view this SR at the moment (Our system is down)
mrrickyg
ok, should I email it again then right now?
mrrickyg
so i can get a prompt response?
MANSION Paul N
Our email system is slow at the moment. I would suggest Chat but maybe in a couple of hours
MANSION Paul N
Thank you for the chat
MANSION Paul N has ended the chat.



I still want to believe that it's just a bug in their keno, that it was supposed to push and it just wasn't and they are going to pay me; or that they realize the problem in their graphics showing wins and no clear rules being posted on the game and pay me. They would retain my business as I loved their site, other than their customer support speed at this point.


Thanks, Richard
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
big picture

Hi mrrickyg,

if you could resize (or delete) that first big picture everything will then become readable.

as it is it can only be read by scrolling left and right on everyline.

cheers
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
Hi mrrickyg,

if you could resize (or delete) that first big picture everything will then become readable.

as it is it can only be read by scrolling left and right on everyline.

cheers

Hi, OK ill do that. it is legible for me somehow, so I didn't notice.
 

soflat

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
It took me less than 15 seconds to find the keno rules, which include the following about the sidebets:

Upper / Lower - You can bet on whether more balls will be drawn in the Lower (1-40) or Upper (41-80) half of the table. Choose which one you would like to bet on and use the 'Side Bet Multiplier' to decide on your stake.

If the numbers drawn in the lower and upper halves of the game are equal, the house wins.

Also, according to the rule, Push does not mean you get your bet back. The explanation for the Results Window says that U/L/P indicate the following:

Whether the end result was Upper, Lower or a Push (equal).
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
It took me less than 15 seconds to find the keno rules, which include the following about the sidebets:



Also, according to the rule, Push does not mean you get your bet back. The explanation for the Results Window says that U/L/P indicate the following:

I never argued that I wasn't retarded for not finding the rules; however I'm not hugely experienced with online casinos and wasn't able to find them quickly and easily from the Keno interface itself. My biggest concern was the graphics I posted, which the whole time were indicating a win. You are experienced and know where to look for rules; but try loading up keno game and finding the rules within 15 seconds from that table.

Even if you can, I still can't--this proves you are excellent at finding rules--many other players, including myself, would not be able to. This does not exonerate them from having graphics showing a win, when the rules indicate it is a loss. Note not just the appearance of a "P" which can be explained by your explantion, but the appearance of starred "P"s which indicate a win/push in combination with the Odd/Even bet. Once they call it a "Push" AND show starred/winning results AND pay it off at 1.95 to one right next to the Odd/Even bet it becomes clearly deceptive and rogueish behavior.
In any form of blackjack where pushes lose, it would be clearly marked on the table that pushes lose. If they are going to offer a virtually even money bet, in which a push is a very common result (around 1 in 6!), it should be clearly marked that a push is losing, and it should NOT be marked on the results that a push is winning. Remember its not just that they have P to begin with, it's that they ambiguously mark them as winners, so when I'm playing on fast mode and can't see the money results very easily on a per spin basis and am just looking at the overall results sheet, I had no reason to suspect I was losing. Without a RULES link available from the game itself, and with the game marking some as a winner and some as a loser, how was I supposed to know that it was a losing bet? Why should I expect, given that information, that it was losing when the bet paid basically even money? Hell even in a casino, I've never seen a dealer not tell a player to buy the 8 instead of putting his money on Big 8 in craps.

Again, as per my original post, this is behavior I'd expect out of a shady casino, and fully expect to be out my money. But given that this is mansion.com, a casinomeister accredited casino, I feel that I have a complaint.
 

soflat

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
Yes, they shouldn't mark the losing bets similarly to the winning bets. I don't think Mansion is rogue, it just has something that should be changed. How many rogue casinos pay out on over $5M in free bets in single week?

I don't understand how you could have lost $5000 and not noticed. Did you start with $5000 and your balance actually hit $141 at one point?
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
Yes, they shouldn't mark the losing bets similarly to the winning bets. I don't think Mansion is rogue, it just has something that should be changed. How many rogue casinos pay out on over $5M in free bets in single week?

I don't understand how you could have lost $5000 and not noticed. Did you start with $5000 and your balance actually hit $141 at one point?

I was playing 4 tables of poker at the same time, I noticed I was losing but at some points I was playing $400 per line so I wasn't really paying attention to WHY I was losing, I had assumed it was just variance. I started playing keno with $4800, cleared $1700 in bonuses and at one point was down to $140 (well actually, later $90!). The reason I can lose $5k without noticing is because I am used to it, it happens in poker all the time! I just didn't notice the reason I was losing was because my pushes weren't "pushing" they were losing, and that was because of a specific and horrendous flaw in their software.

I don't think they are rogue either, and in fact I thought it was just some sort of error until i read their keno rules. I still don't think they are majorly trying to cheat me, I just think their support is slow and incompetent at this point and that they don't understand the severity of the deception. I don't think they were purposefully trying to deceive me, and I'm rather shocked that when I presented them with "the evidence" there wasn't an apology and a return of funds. An accredited casino with good customer service would look at a screenshot that was showing me a winner, and return the pushed money when I give them that much action. However, I can't get through to anybody more than the guys working the webchat because they aren't returning my customer-service e-mails in a timely fashion.
 

KravdraaYvoorg

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Location
Montreal
Can you still set the side bet multiplier to 100x? I just started the game and the multiplier won't go higher than 5x :what:

Maybe Mansion realized that people would use these bets at max multiplier settings to clear the bonuses quicker?
 

soflat

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
Can you still set the side bet multiplier to 100x? I just started the game and the multiplier won't go higher than 5x :what:

Maybe Mansion realized that people would use these bets at max multiplier settings to clear the bonuses quicker?

Yes, the strategy has been discussed at some poker forums.
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
I just wanted to bump this because I posted on another forum and got PM'ed by someone else with the exact same problem, and answered in that thread by 2 other people who had the problem as well. I know it seems like an easy "rules" issue to a lot of you, but there are at least 4 people I know of now who have had this problem.

Mansion customer support has yet to respond to e-mails on the subject.

Thank you for your attention.
 

soflat

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
I just wanted to bump this because I posted on another forum and got PM'ed by someone else with the exact same problem, and answered in that thread by 2 other people who had the problem as well. I know it seems like an easy "rules" issue to a lot of you, but there are at least 4 people I know of now who have had this problem.

There are probably dozens of people who have this problem because it was touted so heavily on poker forums by people trying to whore the heck out of Mansion's casino bonus after having received the free $1000 Steelers bet.
 

minipo

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Location
Hurricane
Same Issue at Mansion- Keno upper/lower sidebet

I was playing $110 'hands' with the 10 times autoplay - - so $1100 at a time. I actually continued to play the upper/lower side bet once I saw the push of the upper/lower marked as a win with the red star. I continued to hit the 10x autoplay, until my $2600 balance went to zero. You ask why I wouldn't have noticed sooner -- I play a lot of poker and didn't think I should have to feel obligated to watch closely. Even if I would have been watching the entire time, I wouldn't have been able to see that I wasn't getting paid for the Push because in autoplay it only would show the 10th 'spin'.

Whether or not Mansion did this on purpose isn't the issue. The issue is that if a player would NOT have played the upper/lower side bet had it not been marked a win... then the casino should cleary pay the bet. I see now that there were rules saying the house won the push -- but it would've been just as simple, had the bet been marked a LOSS, not a WIN -- I may have lost a maximum of $110, until I saw the P as a loss, and I would've stopped betting the upper/lower side bet.

It's completely wrong to lead a player into thinking they are getting paid for a push, when they indeed are not.

I would surely hope they will be fair and pay the bet for the push at the upper/lower. They also should be fixing their software immediately so that others dont get tricked into the same thing.

I do not do sports or play poker for a living, I play recreationally. Losing $2500 is a lot of money to me, especially when I feel I was cheated. I'm a gambler I admit, but I surely still would not play a game with a 20% edge.
 

minipo

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Location
Hurricane
Mansion now aware of Push on upper/lower shown as win

I'm worried.. I found a way to go back and see every bet that was made If you go into "history" while logged into the keno game, it will show you every bet you've made. I went back so that I could log every bet I made on the upper/lower where it was a push, so I could document how many bets they owed me. In this bet history feature it does a "replay" of your bet. They have now changed it so that the P does not show it as a win with the red star... So they are obviously aware of it now, since they have changed it. I hope they will not try and claim that it never showed the red star. I actually got a hold of live chat and they asked for the bet id, to look up the info, but they said their computer system was down and that someone would contact me within 72 hours..

I'm a bit worried that they changed the Push, to a loss in the replay...
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
I'm worried.. I found a way to go back and see every bet that was made If you go into "history" while logged into the keno game, it will show you every bet you've made. I went back so that I could log every bet I made on the upper/lower where it was a push, so I could document how many bets they owed me. In this bet history feature it does a "replay" of your bet. They have now changed it so that the P does not show it as a win with the red star... So they are obviously aware of it now, since they have changed it. I hope they will not try and claim that it never showed the red star. I actually got a hold of live chat and they asked for the bet id, to look up the info, but they said their computer system was down and that someone would contact me within 72 hours..

I'm a bit worried that they changed the Push, to a loss in the replay...


I checked my replays, I can still get the Red Star on a pushes hand. Were you sure to check yours so that you were checking to see if it was a red star with a winning odd/even bet? If it's paired with a losing odd/even bet it will show without a red star. Anyhow, I did get a funky error message after the hand played. Don't know if it's related to your problem of no longer being able to reproduce the problem. In any event Casinomeister help us soon; it appears they might be trying to cover their tracks on the back end while not responding to any of our e-mails. Please intervene before it's too late! The following are the screenshots I just took right now:

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happygobrokey

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Location
canada
player admits she was 4tabling poker and autoplaying keno (which was obv to whore the bonus), then claims she would not have made those bets if she knew she was losing pushes and that she assumed she was winning when she saw all those stars on the board.

player says 2500 is a lot to her, but that she regularly wins and loses 5000 playing poker.

mansion is not a download casino, so it isn't a far stretch to imagine the rules being mere clicks away on the website that she certainly already had open.

call me "savvy" but i look at the rules of the game before i start playing, especially when it is a form of game with which i am unfamiliar, such as keno.

call me crazy but i bet no one touched keno at mansion before this bonus loophole was found, and that any keno player would know that over/under loses in the event of a tie or at least knows to check whether that's the case. mansion had no way to know a star shows on a pushed loss bet since, and in any event it probably isn't stipulated what a red star actually indicates, so where the player derived that from is beyond me.

the mansion keno whore thread at 2+2 even says "don't bet o/u because it loses pushes zOMG so -EV!!!111!11!1!!!"

a responsible whore reads her t&c's, reads entire threads at whoring forums, checks c-m's site for horror stories, understands the bets they are making, and attempts to maxzimaize profit all the while.

not reading the keno rules, betting a bet that doesn't maximize return, crying about a graphic that might be construed as misleading to an onlooker when she herself was not looking on during the play in question... irresponsible, irresponsible, irresponsible.
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
player admits she was 4tabling poker and autoplaying keno (which was obv to whore the bonus), then claims she would not have made those bets if she knew she was losing pushes and that she assumed she was winning when she saw all those stars on the board.

player says 2500 is a lot to her, but that she regularly wins and loses 5000 playing poker.

mansion is not a download casino, so it isn't a far stretch to imagine the rules being mere clicks away on the website that she certainly already had open.

call me "savvy" but i look at the rules of the game before i start playing, especially when it is a form of game with which i am unfamiliar, such as keno.

call me crazy but i bet no one touched keno at mansion before this bonus loophole was found, and that any keno player would know that over/under loses in the event of a tie or at least knows to check whether that's the case. mansion had no way to know a star shows on a pushed loss bet since, and in any event it probably isn't stipulated what a red star actually indicates, so where the player derived that from is beyond me.

the mansion keno whore thread at 2+2 even says "don't bet o/u because it loses pushes zOMG so -EV!!!111!11!1!!!"

a responsible whore reads her t&c's, reads entire threads at whoring forums, checks c-m's site for horror stories, understands the bets they are making, and attempts to maxzimaize profit all the while.

not reading the keno rules, betting a bet that doesn't maximize return, crying about a graphic that might be construed as misleading to an onlooker when she herself was not looking on during the play in question... irresponsible, irresponsible, irresponsible.

That's all fine and good, but I am not a "bonus whore" with tons of experience dealing with the intricacies of the inner workings of casinos. I play a lot of poker for high stakes; that does not mean that its simply "ok" for me to lose money. My brightline test for this is, if I were a random noob off the street(which I am for online casino gambling), and this game did this to me at a Nevada casino, and I took it to the Nevada Gaming Commission, what would they do? The answer is obvious (well the game would never get NGC approval in the first place...), they'd slam the casino and the gamemaker.

Everything that you say is right: It all could have been prevented if I had put myself in a better position by reading the rules (which were not available on the console itself, and I'm not experienced enough to find them quickly in other places and/or understand that the bets that appear to be pushes are actually losses). But a girl who gets drunk, goes up to a guys room, and gets raped at a party could have avoided getting raped if she didn't get drunk and go up to the guys room; that doesn't excuse the rapist from the action.

I don't gamble in online casinos. I play poker. I saw the thread on 2+2 that I could clear the bonus profitably at keno and I used that as an excuse to GAMBLE (not make small bets) giving the house a chance to win. I didn't bet $10/h until the bonus was cleared, I bet up to $400. I have a good chance of going broke legitimately in those circumstances. I did like the prospects of a +EV bet, but I wasn't "whoring" the bonus. I even continued to play sports over the weekend, expecting a response from customer service (any response--I still haven't gotten an e-mail returned--Aren't unreturned e-mails an immediately rogueable offense??). This also isn't a problem that is isolated to me; many others are in the same situation. I have received several PMs from players with the exact same problem. We aren't experienced "bonus whores", we saw that you could play keno profitably with the bonus and played naturally as the game would suggest (Both an even money bet and a graphic showing a winner--1 push + 1 win naturally should be a winner under those cirumstances you win 1 bet - vig). Yes, the bottom line is with 100% vigilance we could have protected ourselves, but the fact is we are just average bettors; NOT experienced "bonus whores". Just because I play high stakes poker and am used to large and quick influxes and outfluxes of money doesn't mean I deserved or should sit by idly while I feel I got duped by a casino. Casinomeister is supposed to protect the average bettor from shady stuff like that; it's not here just to protect bonus whores who should have know better.
 

mrrickyg

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Location
las vegas
Updates

I have some updates, but have decided to hold off til after the next business day to post them. If i could figure out how to just delete this post, I would. Sorry
 

happygobrokey

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Location
canada
you're trying to clear a bonus profitably, but you're a gambler not a whore.

comparing a casino taking your losing bet to a girl getting raped is a poor analogy imo. the casino did not break any law or even their own rules by taking your losing bet. i like this analogy better: saying "but it showed a star so i thought i won" is like saying "but she didn't say no so i thought she consented".

if there were such thing as a total that was neither odd nor even (like i in mathematics, the imaginary square root of -1), that bet would lose if this total came up. you're betting "more in the upper" or "more in the lower" and if neither has more, both bets lose. it's like the 0 on roulette; red or black are even money bets but they are not 50/50 to win/lose.

the little graphic under the u/l bet shows clearly that there is a window in which neither bet would win. crummy that a star shows on the history board, but not reason enough to think you won those bets.

you keep saying you weren't experienced enough to find the rules for the game. you didn't think maybe it would be under "casino rules"? less than an inch away from "open new account"? on the site's main casino page, where you have to be to get into the game itself? is this the first online casino you've played? is this your first time on the internet?

do you also buy stocks and automobiles without checking them out first? it is not only whores who research their pursuits before investing. common sense would tell me and other rational people to know what we're getting into before risking a loss of money, be it a car that won't run, a stock whose company is going down the tubes, betting on a game of chance...
 
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