Major Absolute Poker Issue

[Keyser]

Ummmm... off-topic? Let's keep this thread about AP.

Sorry, I couldnt help it. I am an M.D. and his post screams "Manic depressive right here!" that I couldnt help it. But he could be faking the whole thing. Who knows.

About AP, why can't we just get a third party like the Wizard of Odds to analyze the data in question and know for sure one way or the other?

 

[lots0]

About AP, why can't we just get a third party like the Wizard of Odds to analyze the data in question and know for sure one way or the other?

That would be cool.

But who ever the independent is, CM or the Whiz, they need to see the raw data.

 

[mussy]

I'm dizzy from going backwards and forwards between sites over this, so I'm sorry if this has already been linked to, but have you seen Jennifear's analysis of the HHs

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?

 

[Adanthar]

Well I just asked Adanthar for a copy of the email in question.

Just to ease Adanthar's fears, I publicly promise that I will not release any personally identifiable information to the public. I hope that is good enough.

Now I guess I can sit back and wait for the AP hand history and the email from Adanthar.

it will be good to see some evidence.

You'll have email in a second.

 

[GaryWatson]

I think we are going in circles.

I would close the thread and give AP a week to respond.

If anything, it proves that the regulators are only tax collectors. Worthless IMO

 

[pokeraddict]

Lots0, obviously we have not seen eye to eye about this but I hope what you see will bring you to the same point the rest of us are. I assume AP has yet to email you the master hh as requested?

 

[TheZodiac]

I'm dizzy from going backwards and forwards between sites over this, so I'm sorry if this has already been linked to, but have you seen Jennifear's analysis of the HHs

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?

A 2+2er uploaded the HH on PxF HH viewer
Registration is free.

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[jetset]

The Watchdog said:

"I really dislike tons of forum posters pretending to know about Poker security and everyone goes around analyzing hands and figures they don't even get."

I think you may be grossly underestimating the smarts and capability of many members of the player community.

 

[Casinomeister]

You'll have email in a second.

Go ahead and send me a copy. I'd like to see this.

I'll also contact the Wizard and Eliot Jackobson (who is a member of this forum) and see if they can look into this.

 

[lots0]

Lots0, obviously we have not seen eye to eye about this but I hope what you see will bring you to the same point the rest of us are. I assume AP has yet to email you the master hh as requested?

I did receive the excel file from Adanthar (Thank you).

But I have yet to see the hh from AP (I didn't really expect it until later today or tomorrow).

Looking over the file (i really hate excel files, they are so hard to work with)
it is a space delineated file, real sloppy. I have someone working on some code to get it all parsed out.

According to a press release that Jetset just posted, AP has engaged gamingassociates.com to act as a third party to investigate the accusations against AP.

I would like to add that this it's about f***** time...

 

[pokeraddict]

According to a press release that Jetset just posted, AP has engaged gamingassociates.com to act as a third party to investigate the accusations against AP.

The problem is that Gamingassociates doesn't seem to be independant. They really need to have a thrid party do the audit, not something owned or at least asociated with KGC.

 

[lots0]

The problem is that Gamingassociates doesn't seem to be independant.

What do you mean? Why do you say that?

As far as I know gamingassociates.com is one of, if not the most, trusted name in gambling.

I don't want to be nitpicky here, but just who do you think should do the audit... The Pope???

Here is a list of the consultants that GA uses:

Dr Aftab Rizvi PhD, M Phil, M Sc, BSc, Post Grad Dip, CISSP, CISM, MBA
Aftab is the world's first tester of regulated internet based gaming systems, commencing internet gaming systems testing in 1997.

Previously Director of Technology and responsible for all aspects of the technical evaluation of internet casinos for MGM Mirage, Littlewoods, Hard Rock Casino, Lasseters Online, The Ritz Club London, and a number of other operators, has exposure to more than a dozen of internet gaming and wagering products and operating environments. Aftab has also been involved in numerous gap analyses of e-commerce systems, including internet gaming systems, products and development environments, around the world.

Aftab is a principal consultant .
Top


Alan Pedley AssDip, AIEA
Alan pioneered all technology-based gambling regulation in the Northern Territory, establishing the world's first regulated internet gambling requirements and industry. Alan has been auditing interactive wagering control systems since the mid-1990's; consulting to some of the world's leading wagering and gaming companies since Dec-1998, in relation to information governance and risk management. Alan established the world's first internet gambling regulations enabling regulated interactive gambling industries .

Alan is recognised internationally as a leading expert of information governance in technology-based wagering and gaming industries. He has appeared as an expert witness before government reviews into technology-based gambling since early as 1995 (including the Australian Senate Review into Australia's Online Gambling Industry).

Alan is a principal consultant .
Top


Dr Amir Chishti Ph D, M Sc, B Sc, Dip, Post Grad Dip
Amir specialises in e-commerce systems development, evaluation, and related project management.

He has been involved in the evaluation of complex internet gambling systems since 1999 .

Amir is a senior consultant .
Top


Anton Robbertse Dip
Data architecture practitioner with domestic and international success in implementing data architecture principles within diverse organisations.

More than 15 years experience in the data architecture area, ranging from enterprise architecture to creating physical data models.

Demonstrated success with:
practical implementation of data architecture in adherence to enterprise architecture;
data modelling (enterprise, logical, physical and star schema) using various toolsets;
presenting proposals to senior management;
project management; and
tool selection and implementation.
Top


Binh Phu BSc (Comp)


Binh commenced testing slot machines and integrated slot machine systems for regulated jurisdictions in 2000. Binh was promoted to senior tester responsible for slot machine testing and certification in 2003. Binh has been performing interactive gaming systems testing - against prescribed regulatory standards - since 2002.

In 2004 Binh joined Gaming Associates and migrated his extensive disciplines in the field of regulated gambling testing exclusively to interactive systems, where he is a senior systems tester .
Top


Geoffrey Todd BA

Geoffrey's is a career security expert - service with the British SAS and British Constabulary.

Geoffrey has specialised in casino security and surveillance since 1985, when he commenced with Diamond Beach Hotel Casino (Darwin), as Security & Surveillance Manager .

Geoffrey later moved to the government regulatory authority as a Government Inspector and later a Senior Government Inspector responsible for security and surveillance matters. He was a principal member of the management team which migrated casino regulation to a risk management approach with MGM Grand (Darwin).

Geoffrey is a senior consultant .
Top


Ian Manning
Ian has previously headed the Victorian Casino Control Authority, and is expert in establishing casino regulatory methodologies, and providing casino regulatory services to government regulatory authorities.

Ian provides compliance services to casino licensees .

Ian is a senior consultant.
Top


Dr Nadeem Ansari PhD, M Phil, M Sc, B Sc, Dip, Cert
Nadeem specialises in the evaluation of random number generators, encryption algorithms, and games. Nadeem has applied his mathematical expertise to gambling industries for a number of years. He has been involved in the development of Gaming Associates' advanced empirical gambling analysis and evaluation system (AEGEAS) – a world's best practice gambling tool.

Nadeem is a senior consultant .
Top


Rodney Pickup DipLaw
Rodney has extensive experience relating to project communication, senior corporate liaison, stakeholder management, contract negotiation, regulatory processes and approvals and intellectual property matters in the technology based industries, especially technology-based wagering and gaming industries.

His technology-based gambling assignments have included: Global Gaming Services (GGS); Mikohn (Australasia); Mobilesoft Limited; NTC Samurai Gaming; TAB Limited; and Tekkorp Consulting Group. Projects have included dealings with: Telstra Corporation; KeyCorp Limited; Online Gaming Systems (OGS); GET Systems; NextGen Gaming; AWA; TABCORP Ltd; Tattersall Holdings; and others.
Rodney is a principal consultant.


Here is a list of some of the past companies GA has worked for.

Access Systems Research;
ACTTAB Limited;
Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC);
AWA Gaming; Aristocrat Leisure Industries (ALI);
Bellamy, Miller & Monypenny;
Betcorp Limited;
BetWWTS; BMM International;
BMM Test Labs;
Bodog; Boss Media;
Centrebet;
Centre Racing;
Consolidated Gaming Corporation, Cryptologic Inc;
Darwin All Sports;
Department of Communications & Information Services (NT);
Department of Industries & Business (NT);
Diamond Beach Hotel Casino;
Director of Gaming (Northern Territory);
Director of Licensing (Northern Territory);
DMR Consulting (Australia); EventsMarket Limited (UK);
Ernst & Young;
IGT (Australia);
Full Tilt Poker;
GGS-AU;
Global Gaming Services (GGS);
International All Sports;
Jupiters Limited;
Kahnawake Gaming Commission;
Lasseters Hotel Casino;
Lasseters Online;
Littlewoods;
Magna Corporation;
MGM Grand (Darwin);
MGM Mirage;
Mikohn Gaming;
Mobilesoft Limited;
Morris International;
Next Generation Gaming;
Northern Territory TAB;
NTC Samurai Gaming;
NT Treasury - Racing, Gaming & Licensing Division;
Olympic Gaming;
Pacific Casino Management;
Online Gaming Systems (OGS);
Panell Kerr Foster (PKF);
Racing & Gaming Authority (NT);
Realtime Gaming;
Ritz Interactive Limited;
Samurai Gaming;
Singapore Pools;
Sports Interaction;
Sun International;
TAB Limited;
Tasman Gaming Inc;
Tattersall Lottery Consultants;
Technical Systems Testing (TST);
The Ritz Club London;
The Ritz Club Online;
The Territory Lottery Company (TLC);
Tribeca Tables;
TST;
TVB Enterprises;
Video Lottery Consultants (VLC);
WagerWorks

Now why pokeraddict would you say they are not independent, they are in fact the essence of independence and everyone that works in the industry knows this. That is why all the big names call them when they have a problem.

 

[Casinomeister]

The problem is that Gamingassociates doesn't seem to be independant. They really need to have a thrid party do the audit, not something owned or at least asociated with KGC.

Gamingassociates is a good company, and I believe that they will look at this objectively without a doubt. And I'm sure it won't stop there. There is enough interest in this case that others will be involved as well. It's a big deal, and it's only a matter of time before the mainstream press gets wind of this.

Don't forget how popular poker is in the states - and I believe that quite a few of these aggrieved players reside there...

 

[lots0]

@Pokeraddict

After rereading the press release from AP... If I were you I would be praying that GA finds something... anything...

Because if they don't it looks like AP's lawyers will be paying you and a few others a visit...

 

[pokeraddict]

Gamingassociates is KGC's auditor. The comparison made is like having Arthur Anderson audit Enron. It would be good if a third party, not already involved with both AP and KGC did it. Realy I doubt it will matter anyway. The audit is only as good as he evidence not already destroyed. Auditing a month later after they are in a hole they can't dig out of and have lied so many times it's hard to believe this will resolve anything.

What the poker world wants is for the audit to show what went wrong and who was responsible. If the auditors show that then the community will likely be satisified provided refunds are given. If the auditor says "We found nothing" then it will just be pointless and the worry at this point is that AP has had time to destroy everything outside this MTT, couple that with KGC's auditor doing the audit the community doesn't feel this will prove anything. A third party not already involved would be best. Supposedly GA should have already audited AP as they do every month and they don't seem to have found anything.

Of course GA can prove us all wrong. It's a step in the right direction as this $1000 MTT is documented publicly so there is no destroying it now.

 

[lots0]

Gamingassociates is KGC's auditor.

They are also Bodog's, Full Tilt Poker's and the Australian Governments auditors... just to name a few.

If you don't want anyone that has done business with KGC to audit AP, then your going to have to go outside the gambling industry and then you get people that don't have a clue about what is going on.

The audit is only as good as he evidence not already destroyed.

Well that is not really true. IF GA does a full audit, they won't just be looking at the records, they will be looking at the system itself.

GA will be in the software looking for a backdoor, superuser accounts and to see if in fact there is a way for your opponents to see your hole cards.

These are things that can NOT be hidden or corrected in a few days or even a few weeks.

 

[Casinomeister]

Gamingassociates is KGC's auditor. The comparison made is like having Arthur Anderson audit Enron. It would be good if a third party, not already involved with both AP and KGC did it...

Yeah but, it is in KGC's best interest that everyone comes clean on this.

Besides, there is enough info posted online already that players can use to make their own decisions. This audit is way too late. This should have been done a month ago.

 

[pokeraddict]

Yeah but, it is in KGC's best interest that everyone comes clean on this.

Besides, there is enough info posted online already that players can use to make their own decisions. This audit is way too late. This should have been done a month ago.

Agree that the info posted already cannot be destroyed. That is the good part. It's hard to trust AP after how they handled this to cooperate fully and not have destroyed evidence.

Lots0, I was not aware they were involved in other rooms. The small research I've done makes it look like they are a part of KGC, that must not be true.

 

[lots0]

This should have been done a month ago.

So true, it would have avoided all this bad press for Online Poker.

Like I said before, I think the AP management was wishing that this story would just go away and they thought that if they stuck their heads in the sand long enough... it would. A very very bad call on their part.

Lots0, I was not aware they were involved in other rooms. The small research I've done makes it look like they are a part of KGC, that must not be true.

No it's not. On two occasions I have had the opportunity to observe GA in action. I won't go into the details, but I was very impressed with their professionalism and their understanding of the online gaming business.

I will put great weight on GA's report, lets hope that AP's Management will make the complete report from GA public.

added: I just checked and GA does not have a current certification for absolutepoker.com. This means that AP was not a current client of GA when AP asked GA to do the audit.

 

[Adanthar]

Quoting myself from 2+2 before someone else does:

More breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.

AJ Green is also POTSLAMMER on 2+2, whom The Watchdog (who may or may not be Scott Tom) defends in his last ever 2+2 post that I've linked a few pages back.

Kinda puts a damper on the whole 'we did an investigation and found nothing wrong' thing.

 

[lots0]

More breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.

Come on... Nameless sources at AP... Well now I'm convinced... NOT!

So far how many people have you and your friends accused of being POTRIPPER? By my count it is close to five before this revelation...

If it is in fact Mr. Tom and his best friend, then it is not current AP management. It then becomes an issue of collusion between players, one of them using knowledge gained at a past employer to cheat other players.

I also have some real questions (doubts) about that hand history file I received from you. I don't know if I believe it's from AP. Sure does not look like it to me to me. But, we are still in the process of verifying the data, so who knows maybe I am wrong.

I am sending a copy of the email to AP, I want their input on this.

 

[Adanthar]

I don't know if I believe it's from AP. Sure does not look like it to me to me.

If you believe I/we made up a 65,536 line file and made it consistent with every other HH in the public domain (probably about a dozen), including 13 additional tables that have no remote connection with the one we're talking about, there's no point talking to you farther.

 

[lots0]

If you believe I/we made up a 65,536 line file and made it consistent with every other HH in the public domain (probably about a dozen), including 13 additional tables that have no remote connection with the one we're talking about, there's no point talking to you farther.

I did not say you made it up...

I did not say you and your friends made it up. I said, "...it did not look like it was from AP to me, but I could be wrong."

As far as all those "other" hand histories that have been posted, are they not all based on this email or only one sided incomplete data from pokertracker?

In the SEO world I once saw a small group of guys (there were three of them) create over 4.2 gigs of completly false data (that could be verified as real data until close human inspection), just to fool a search engine robot. So your claims that it would be impossible to create a 9 meg excel file are kinda falling on deaf ears, at least with me.

 

[lots0]

Adanthar you should ask your nameless source from AP why the hand history file in question is in excel format.

From what I have just been told, Absolute Poker does not use excel in it's company system.

If that is in fact the case, it would be impossible for an AP employee to send anyone a company file that is in excel format... even on accident.

 

[pokerfun0000000]

I did not say you made it up...

I did not say you and your friends made it up. I said, "...it did not look like it was from AP to me, but I could be wrong."

As far as all those "other" hand histories that have been posted, are they not all based on this email or only one sided incomplete data from pokertracker?

In the SEO world I once saw a small group of guys (there were three of them) create over 4.2 gigs of completly false data (that could be verified as real data until close human inspection), just to fool a search engine robot. So your claims that it would be impossible to create a 9 meg excel file are kinda falling on deaf ears, at least with me.

Wow, you are still going at it huh?

Isnt it blatently obvious by now that this LOTSO character is someway connected to AP? Perhaps using a proxy to mask their real IP.

The evidence is clear and convincing idiot. Yes I have to call you an idiot, because it seems being civil with you goes nowhere.