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Main Street Group confusing terms!

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by CROGO, Apr 22, 2006.

    Apr 22, 2006
  1. CROGO

    CROGO Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    US
    In January I played at two casinos that I now know are owned by the main street group:
    lasvegasusacasino.com and
    diamonddealcasino.com

    Before depositing, I read the T+C’s at each. I am a US citizen who has been working outside of the US in the global economy. I had some British pounds and I wanted to check that it was OK to deposit with them. (Some casinos penalize players for this, but I wasn’t earning US dollars at the time.) The T+C’s made no reference to a problem with depositing in GBP. I then looked at the Banking page. On both of these casinos the top of the banking page read:
    “Making Deposits
    We accept deposits in any currency. Player accounts are tracked in US dollars so deposits made in currencies other than US dollars will be converted at the current bank exchange rate.”
    (They both still do):
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    So I thought, no problem. I’ll deposit in pounds and they will convert them into US dollars. I played at each, one at a time.

    I set up an account at LasVegasUSAcasino. I was given a choice of currency. I assumed that the money was all getting converted into US dollars, so a selected “GBP” to indicate I was depositing in pounds. I expected it would be converted into $100 (US), since the banking page clearly states this is the procedure. Instead they took 100 GBP. I played with it, was awarded a bonus and cashed out 283 GBP.

    Without knowing DiamondDealcasino was part of the same group, I also opened up an account there. Same thing, only I didn’t claim a bonus there. I deposited what I thought was $100 (US) only to find 100 GBP were deducted from my bank account. I withdrew 213 GBP.

    When I went to check my bank account, I realized they had shorted me:
    Of the 283 GBP withdrawn at LasVegasUSAcasino they only paid 268 GBP
    Of the 213 GBP withdrawn at DiamondDealcasino they only paid 199 GBP
    (It was a little hard to see this at first because they recredit in two steps, each less than the full withdrawl.)

    When I called to complain they told me that the because I wasn’t a British citizen they had charged me 5% fee for cashing out. They told me this was in their T+C’s. It is not listed under the T+C’s. What I did find is at the very bottom of the banking page under “Overnight Express” they state:
    "All players using € (EURO) outside the Eurozone (12 countries in which euro is the official currency) or £(Great Britain Pound) outside the United Kingdom will be charged an additional 5% fee on every approved withdrawal request up to a maximum fee of €500 or £500."
    I never requested an overnight express payment, so I don’t understand how this fee could apply. ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS IS CONTRARY TO THE CLEAR WORDING AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE THAT ALL DEPOSITS ARE CONVERTED INTO US DOLLARS!! So according to their banking page, I deposited 100 GBP. They then converted that into US Dollars. Then they converted it back to GBP for me to play with. When I went to cashout they charged me a 5% fee for all of this currency conversion, which I never requested.

    I talked with several people on the phone and got nowhere. I realize the amount in dispute is not great, 15 GBP and 4 GBP, but it still annoys me. I have been busy, and it appears that the 60 day window for complaining to Playtech has passed. (And Brian was not available when this happened in January.) But I think everyone should see the DECEIT that the Main Street group is practicing. Despite the fact that I wanted to wager in US dollars, I am now unable to open another account with them, and they refused to convert the existing accounts to US dollars, as the banking section clearly states they would do. Frankly, I’ll take my business elsewhere. I hope everyone here does the same.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2006
  2. Apr 22, 2006
  3. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Phew- long post :)

    From all that, it seems the problem here is in the use of "Overnight Express" - whatever that is. Sounds like they paid you in this manner, but you didnt request it in this manner? Is this is a correct summary of the issue?

    Cheers

    Simmo!
     
  4. Apr 22, 2006
  5. Sodax77

    Sodax77 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Human Being
    Location:
    EU|FI
    removed by sodax77

    Thanks Summer! You are the best!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2006
  6. Apr 22, 2006
  7. CROGO

    CROGO Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    US
    No they didn't pay me by "Overnight Express", nor did I request payment in this manner. In each case I received two seperate payments over several days:
    4 days between payments at LasVegasUSA and
    2 days between payments at DiamondDeal

    There was nothing express about it. (And the above is just between the payments, not counting the fact that the withdrawal request was put in a few days before the first payment!) They are just very, very, sneaky.

    I am shocked that Brian has them on his approved list.

    Yeah, it is a long post, but its not a simple problem like I wasn't paid. It is much more deceptive. Yes, they paid me something, but it wasn't everything they owed me. The house has a high enough edge without charging an extra 5% on WITHDRAWAL requests.

    That is robbery!

    I guess they must need the money more than I do, huh?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2006
  8. Apr 22, 2006
  9. schankwart

    schankwart Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Secret Agent
    Location:
    Colony Gamma
    Main Street is an absolute no-go for me!

    A few months ago I thought to give them a try and made some deposits across their Casinos to see what they are all about these days. Another few weeks later I requested a small bonus to be credited in one of my accounts and got the strangest excuse ever.... They refused to credit me the promotional funds after I had already deposited, giving the "reason" that I had purchased too much for the promotion!

    Had they not brought up this absolute nonsense with me chances were that I would still be making decent deposits with them now. This matter however made it quite clear to me that they apparently are not interested in a good relation with their (higher depositing) players, especially after my message to the manager got ignored as well. Perhaps I should have played some more Slots but VP? :confused:

    I am not mad about that they did not credit me with the bonus but about the way they explained it. It is obvious that they just wanted to find a reason not to honor the promotion. bleh

    While the bonus actually was just of a small amount, this issue stole my trust in their outfit completely, as I read various other complaints about them in the forums before as well.
     
  10. Apr 22, 2006
  11. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    I looked at the banking page and the 5% fee is mentioned below the Overnight Express paragraph, but (to me) it does not look like they meant for the 5% to apply only to overnight express.

    I do agree the cashier page is overly confusing, expecially the part about converting currencies (why do they have to convert to USD if you can play in GBP anyways?).

    Interesting, they also require players to wager 5X their deposit or else incur processing fees - that reminds of that thread where people were upset about a 1x playthru requirement.
     
  12. Apr 22, 2006
  13. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    It doesn't make any sense for them to charge 5% only on overnight express unless they are trying to cover express fees as well - but that 500 limit is outrageous.

    Nevertheless, I think somewhere along the line they must have misunderstood something. I do agree that 5% for any reason is crap, but on the other hand it is in their terms and conditions.

    For the 19 pounds you lost, I really think Main Street Group ought to refund that - but also, I think it may not be worth the hassle to you to go through all the BS. You cashed out a winner (if I am not mistaken) - and even with the 19 pounds removed you are still a winner - so what I would probably do if I were in your shoes is just eat the 19 pounds and never play there again.

    If they were smart - they'd refund it because 19 quid is definitely not worth the potential loss of business.
     
  14. Apr 23, 2006
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Fee

    While in the T & C, I cannot see how this type of malarkey with currency exchanges is allowed for an outfit in Bryan's Accredited list.
    Can they justify this charge based on increased processing costs, or is this a veiled way of insulting certain players by charging a "fraud risk insurance premium" on a certain class of player to cover the instances when they lose out to real fraud. If they are prepared to lightly "screw" one class of player, how can they be trusted not to spread the net wider in the future and catch a few more players out with this?

    I would like Bryan to consider not accepting casinos that have these little "traps" buried in their T & C that seek to discriminate against honest players. I don't think this 5% is applied just to winners, it adds another 5% to the house edge on withdrawal, and this dwarfs the house edge on most of the non-slot games. I am wary of any outfits that seek to treat the Pound in this manner, for whatever reason.
    I saw this with Grand Privvy, and it turned out to be a sneaky way of banning us Brits, but they didn't want to be up front and say so, they invented all sorts of T & C to make it hard for us to play under the same rules as other players. Even now they won't "call a spade a spade" and say we are banned. They have 2 separate terms, but both together effectively make it impossible for us to participate in the Grand Privvy experience, we can only deposit and play a "plain vanilla" MG casino.

    Grand Privvy - that's a load of crap:D
     
  16. Apr 23, 2006
  17. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    A lot of casinos prohibit folks from playing in GBP unless they are GB residents. That is because bonus hunters use GBP to get a larger bonus.

    If I understand it correctly, Main Street is actually allowing anyone to use GBP, which is pretty nice of them in this day.

    Since the 5% is applied only to withdrawals, that does not add 5% to the house edge unless you cashed in an amount larger than your total wagers. In most cases (where a player wagers a large amount in proportion to the cash-in), the house edge is affected by a much smaller amount.
     
  18. Apr 23, 2006
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    GBP

    In the above case a player is being paid in GBP, so surely they would want to play in the currency they have available. This is not playing the "pound edge", and should not be penalised. Playing the "pound edge" would be depositing from a dollar bank/card account but playing in GBP and taking the currency conversion hit as a cost of taking a GBP bonus.
    This fee should not be "buried" either, this player should have been informed up front by CS before he played so that he could change his mind about playing. The internet has no borders, so why should it matter if a player works long term away from his own country and wants to play online while doing so. he would find it very hard to use a US bank or card anyway, as they don't allow casino transactions so I see using his GBP accounts as the only way.
    I play in GBP, not because of the "pound edge", but because I would suffer erosion each time I deposited and withdrew due to currency exchange fees that most bakns and cards, and even Neteller, charge. These could actually approach the 5% level.

    A better term would be to state that players in GBP must deposit from an account (bank, card, Neteller) that is itself denominated in GBP. This will stop the bonus players, but would not catch out those with "unusual" working circumstances. People working away from home are probably good customers to encourage, as they are probably away from family and friends, and have more leisure time to spend on such solitary activity. They are also probably wealthier than most, as the main reason people work away from home is a better salary, or being in a senior position (with expenses for working away to match).

    Perhaps one day the UK will adopt the Euro, and all this will go away.
     
  20. Apr 23, 2006
  21. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    I agree, he was probably not after the poud edge, but the rule is in place to discourage people from exploiting the pound edge. In other words, I think the player just got caught up in a rule meant to penalize other players.

    I feel the rule is fairly divulged, although it could be done better.

    Restricting players to certain currencies based on geographic location is up to the casino, and I don't see why they should be removed from the accredited list for it. Afterall, many reputable casinos have such rules.
     
  22. Apr 23, 2006
  23. Cynthia777

    Cynthia777 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    working
    Location:
    My house
    Sometimes I have to wonder if the specific dealings with a particular casino in a group and the group itself can vary. Not to veer off of the specific top of the threader's post, but while we are on the topic of Main Street Group, I had a very positive experience with Slots.com (one of their casinos), but the thing that I find a catch-22 with them is their promotion of getting an extra $20 free bonus when you send them your scanned documents, but, one of the requirements of getting this is having deposited via credit card, and we all know how difficult it is getting a deposit through via this method.
     
  24. Apr 23, 2006
  25. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Quote: Sometimes I have to wonder if the specific dealings with a particular casino in a group and the group itself can vary.UNQUOTE

    I think this is a good point. Although several brands may feed into a particular group ownership's admin set-up, it is possible to have brand managers calling the front-line shots at the individual casinos, especially in the bigger groups.

    I think we have to guard against forming too much of a one-sided, negative perception of the industry as a whole in this particular section, which is devoted to individual beefs against online casinos. To keep a sense of perspective, the more established of these venues are dealing with thousands if not tens of thousands of transactions from a very large number of players on a daily basis, and the average percentage of complaints in relation to total business transacted is probably very small.

    I take the point that even one complaint is one too many, and needs to be fairly addressed, but the realist in me tells me that it is too easy to develop an unbalanced general perception from a concentrated reading of negative posts involving the (probably) fairly small percentage of savvy online players who use the fora.

    That's certainly not intended to decry the value of exchanging information on bad experiences, because that helps the players obtain justice or avoid rip-offs...and it also serves to focus the casinos' attention on bad practice in need of improvement and its business consequences.

    Regarding Main Street Group, unless there have been changes lately this outfit is headed by Marty Jensen, an experienced RTG operator who with fellow investors bought The Prescription a couple of years ago. Marty and his group had their (bad) moments several years ago, but to my knowledge there have been few complaints against this operation in more recent times.
     
  26. Apr 24, 2006
  27. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Just a few things which strike me as odd from your first post:

    If you were taking their terms literally wouldn't you deposit 57 or so if you wanted to play with $100? I can see how the terms could confuse anyone, but as far as I remember Playtech software and especially the cashier makes it very clear which currency you're using (before you deposit).
    You then go on to make the same mistake at another casino, despite saying you'd looked at the terms carefully (and must have spotted the similarity)? That, and the strange contradictions of obvious knowledge and apparent naivity in your post, make me assume you're a bonus hunter, though that's fine and there's no need to be coy about it ;)

    In any case it's good that you've drawn people's attention to the shady behaviour of having a term at the top of the banking page eliciting play in different currencies & a sting in the tail right at the very bottom. Unfortunately I don't think you have much of a case for recovering the 5% as that term doesn't really appear to be part of the "Overnight Express" section.
     
  28. Apr 24, 2006
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I thought this player WAS located and working in the UK when opening his account, but was originally from the states. This had nothing to do with geographic location. I am beginning to suspect that it had something to do with identity documents being issued by the USA, making it look like a player exploiting the pound edge.

    Perhaps indeed this term should clarify that it is citizenship and NOT actual current location that determines your "country" when it come to playing online. To make matters worse, other casinos take it the other way, a Hong Kong player denied bonuses by Intercasino was told to play from another country to get bonuses reinstated. With no real standardisation, casinos must be absolutely clear with their terms, and players must remember that there is no such thing as "standard practice", just as there is no requirement for casinos to void WR if the account is zeroed, another source of argument. There are things that most casinos do and some don't; and things that most don't but some do.
    Perhaps we should all make the casino wait for our first deposits rather than us acting on impulse. We should interrogate CS, and ask for a precis in writing before we deposit a cent! I am sure this would encourage more clarity and openness in T & C in order to get our money in ASAP.
    Allied to this point is the fact that many casinos lie through their teeth when asked to explain the reasoning for what appears to be a silly term. In this case it is a charge to cover the cost of "overnight express". Clearly, in this case this was just total BS, as the funds went by slower means. The fact that an excuse, rather than the truth, is used to explain the deduction is enough to render their reputable status worthy of review.
    500 max charge really shows up the deception. International courier charges the same whatever the amount of a cheque, usually around $30 to $50, and overnight bank wire is a similar amount. If the charge cap was around this amount, I would believe the excuse, but 500 cap is simply a fine dressed up as a charge for services rendered.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Apr 24, 2006
  31. CROGO

    CROGO Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    US

    I just double checked. It was 125 GBP I deposited at DiamondDealcasino, not 100 GBP. (For some reason I can’t edit the original post now.) What happened was that after I got the first part of the payment from lasvegasusacasino I deposited at DiamondDealcasino. The second part of the payment didn’t come in until a few days later.

    Bonus hunter? You can think whatever you want, but if I was only playing for the bonuses why did I only claim a bonus at one casino?

    I am not an expert on Playtech software, but I believe that the software used to wager with may be different than the software used for depositing. The software was not clear whether I was depositing $100 (U.S) or 100 GBP. (I now make a point of calling CS about this if it isn’t clear.) Yes, the software did show me playing in pounds, but was I really playing in pounds, or only the equivalent in U.S. dollars? The fundamental problem is that the banking terms clearly stated that all deposits would be converted into US dollars.

    When you go into a brick and mortar casino you have to convert into the local currency before you play. (I travel a lot. When every other money changer is closed, the casino will be open to change money!) I understood that they were automatically converting the currency into U.S. dollars when I deposited. This is what the banking page clearly read. They were not “eliciting play in different currencies” as you stated. They were eliciting DEPOSITS in different currencies. If all deposits were to be converted in to dollars then why should anyone be penalized for the casino’s own failure to abide by its own rule?

    Thank you VinylWeatherman for agreeing with me. Usually when you read a contract of other legal document you use the headings to group things. In the casinos referred to, the 5% penalty language appears under a bold faced heading for “Overnight Express” and above a bold faced heading “Special General Note”. If it was a general term, it needed to be under the “Special General Note”, assuming its OK to not list this penalty under the T+C’s for the casino. By hiding this language, and it was HIDDEN under the “Overnight Express”, the logical interpretation is that the 5% penalty only applied if you chose the “Overnight Express” payment AND you requested a payout in pounds. (And how could I know at the time of depositing that playing with GBP’s was an option, since the banking terms clearly stated all deposits would be converted to US dollars?) I neither requested “Overnight Express” payment nor did I receive it, and I would have been quite happy to receive payment in U.S. dollars. The decision to pay this out in pounds was theirs, not mine.

    To Spearmaster: I don’t believe this was a misunderstanding. I feel this is a deliberate strategy to penalize people who are not UK citizens but deposit in pounds. If the casinos want to regulate currency deposits, OK, but they need to be open about it. The reality is they are playing “Gotcha” here. They are hiding the ball here. Yes, I made a profit here, but if I had deposited through a credit card and then disputed only 10% do you think the casino would put me on a blacklist, or do you think they would say, “Oh well he paid most of the bill”?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  32. Apr 24, 2006
  33. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    The player never said he was in the UK, only that he had some GBPs. As far as we know he was in the USA or, if he was elsewhere, then he might have given a USA address during sign-up.

    There are a number of things that were not mentioned (like why did he sign up and play at another casino without a sign-up bonus?).
     
  34. Apr 24, 2006
  35. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    What I meant was that support must have misunderstood something. It makes no sense to penalize people who are not UK citizens but deposit in pounds - income is income, the more you deposit, the more they make.

    Which is why I don't buy this currency excuse from any casino. That being said - eat the 19 and never go back. You don't want all the hassle associated with recovering such a small amount of money - or do you?
     
  36. Apr 24, 2006
  37. sripal32

    sripal32 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Network Engg
    Location:
    UK
    Could your problem be associated with Exchange Rate commissions?

    I get into these problems when I try to get cash through Neteller Credit Card. I have a US Neteller account and whenever I try to withdraw some cash, they convert it to Canadian Dollars (and charge 2 dollars for it along with less than market value for exchange rates) and when I try to withdraw cash from the neteller card, it short changes me again.

    In your case, I tend to believe that the following statement could be the source of the problem. (Or atlease I hope so)

    'Player accounts are tracked in US dollars so deposits made in currencies other than US dollars will be converted at the current bank exchange rate.'

    The sell rate and buy rate differs :)

    Cheers!
    Sri
     
  38. Apr 24, 2006
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The term

    I have had a good look at the banking page. It seems very detailed, and makes it clear that all play and wins are in dollars, and deposits in other currencies will be converted into dollars.

    On withdrawal, the following aplies:-

    All players using (EURO) outside the Eurozone (12 countries in which euro is the official currency) or (Great Britain Pound) outside the United Kingdom will be charged an additional 5% fee on every approved withdrawal request up to a maximum fee of 500 or 500.

    This simply mentions where you are when you play. If you register with a home address outside the UK, but deposit in pounds, this applies. Although under the overnight express heading, there is a gap which looks like it is a "special general note", but the writer has forgotten to precede this paragraph with this as it has for the others.

    There is NO POUND EDGE involved here either, so there would be no benefit in depositing in pounds if you could deposit in dollars. It is possible that the 5% is, in fact, due to exchange rate charges, which a casino would normally cover itself. I suspect they want players to deposit in dollars, but are prepared to "eat" the exchange charges for UK and European players.
    Now, if this 5% turns out to be in ADDITION to exchange rate charges, that is too cheeky to be allowed to pass. I think someone with connections should try to get an explanation of what is behind this term, as it isn't "bonus abuse" through currency edge.
     

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