Life Time Bonus Rule

phynqster

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Jul 15, 2004
Location
los angeles, ca
When you first look at the lifetime bonus rule it seems asinine. When I first saw it I thought it was wrong and wanted to change it, but than I realized it was there. On the RTG system there are a number of slot machines that you are able to build up a personal jackpot. I would have players deposit, take a large bonus (400%) and build the jackpot to just before it hit. Remember if they hit the jackpot they would only be entitled to 10x their deposit maximum cash out. They would than make a deposit with NO BONUS, so there would be no restrictions on play through or max cash out. They would than hit the jack pot on their first couple of spins, and cash out the full amount. This is the reason the term is there, for the casinos that offer large bonuses. It is also there for the players who make a deposit, play their money without a bonus, so again no restrictions, than when they loose they than ask for the bonus that was never put in their account.
Anytime a player asked me ahead of time about the lifetime rule I explained that as long as they were not trying to abuse the system I would note on their account and they would be eligible for regular cash out. In the casino I would want EVERY player to play with no bonus that would make everything best, so why would I stop a player who once used bonuses from ever playing without bonuses in the future. You just need open communication.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
On the RTG system there are a number of slot machines that you are able to “build “ up a personal jackpot. I would have players deposit, take a large bonus (400%) and build the jackpot to just before it hit. Remember if they hit the jackpot they would only be entitled to 10x their deposit maximum cash out. They would than make a deposit with NO BONUS, so there would be no restrictions on play through or max cash out. They would than hit the jack pot on their first couple of spins
So you're saying that some RTG slots aren't totally random, and a person can predict the outcome?
 

Rettahs

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Aug 1, 2006
Location
Saint Louis
Okay, who is on the crack pipe here? The way I read that is that the slots actually tracks the user and pays out per the account over time.

phynqster, are you saying that the slots actually track the user account and pay off on some sort of set basis?
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
RTG have some games where you have your own 'jackpot', frozen assets for example, it is these that i believe phynqster is on about not the ones on the 'real series' slots
 

phynqster

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Jul 15, 2004
Location
los angeles, ca
RTG have some games where you have your own 'jackpot', frozen assets for example, it is these that i believe phynqster is on about not the ones on the 'real series' slots
You are entirely correct. There are a few other ones also. I never said the Real Series, but why would it matter? My statement is still fact.
 

Rettahs

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Location
Saint Louis
RTG have some games where you have your own 'jackpot', frozen assets for example, it is these that i believe phynqster is on about not the ones on the 'real series' slots
I see, it was a tad hard for me to decipher what he was trying to say :).
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
You are entirely correct. There are a few other ones also. I never said the Real Series, but why would it matter? My statement is still fact.
It matters in that the rationale doesn't apply to the real series slots (where I would guess most of the slots action occurs)

btw I really do appreciate you ex-RTG guys giving us insights into how things work. Thanks.
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
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My statement is still fact.
You have some real evidence?

But I have a similar suspicion, but it is ONLY a suspicion - I have no math or data to back it up. But is is a interesting conspiracy theory :)

Chance of hitting the jackpot is a constant-factor*bet-size. And it really seems that this constant factor varies between the slot. Etc. is the Fruit Frenzy jackpot often hit when it is very high. So I think this constant can be configured by the casinos. So here is what the casinos do.

1) They set the constant factor to a very low value. Jackpots are building up and rarely won.

2) They send out bonus offers (slots only) with max-cashout restrictions and then they increase the constant factor so jackpots are much easier hit.

3) Players hit a lot of jackpots and the casino keeps most of them due to the max-cashout.

4) When the bonus offers are no longer valid Goto 1)

I think you all know what RTG casino group I am talking about.

In this thread I explain why you should never play with a max-cashout bonus because the effective payout% is much lower. Actually you should not play
at the RTG casinos that have max-cashout restrictions at all. They are all in the rogue-pit allready I think.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...e-voiding-1454-my-1954-winnings-resolved.html

Zoozie
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
Maybe a bit off topic, but still RTG related.

I have yet to develop a knack for these machines. I am anecdotally convinced that the odds change per bet size and that they move that factor around, so in my little mind, a good part of the 'randomness' is not generated by a random number generator.
In the crudest sense, it seems like, on average, you have to establish a bet size and play it awhile. If you jump from 2 to 20 you have to start all over again, but you can drop to fourty cents and hit like lightning now and then. It really seems like a lame AI or that a person may manipulate it sometimes.

RTG's do streak, in a way that tells my gut it isn't totally RNG/set program. That is over all the real series slots in my experience.

And sometimes the software booboos (what we see and hear compared to what they say) even at an accreditated casino.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Rules.

There are two differing rules here. The lifetime bonus rule is seen at places like VIP.com The rule means that no player who has, over the life of their account, can be eligible for a bonus. The max cashout rule is different, and worse. It means that even a player who is down several thousand bucks, but then hits a random jackpot, may not keep more than a fraction of it.

Whether the casinos cheat or not by making the Jackpot more likely, what is certain is that the amounts kept from random jackpot wins due to the rule increase the house edge of the slot games quite considerably. The max cashout rule is particularly punishing where high variance games are played, such as slots. The best approach is to play only those slots where the random jackpot is not much larger than your max cashout from whatever coupon you are playing.

The two slots with personal jackpots are Frozen Assets and, I believe, Break the Bank. Frozen Assets is the only one where you can predict when, and how much, you will be paid.
The obvious way out is to exclude these "classic" slots from the bonus coupons, or offer a far lower bonus for these.
Sadly there is no way a casino can legitimately confiscate money built up in these personal jackpots while allowing play on these slots with bonus money. The only way out would be to have a CLEAR rule that play on these slots with coupons that disallow them will result in the personal jackpot being reset to zero.

I see that InetBet have a coupon that is only for "real series" slots, so play on Frozen Assets would be against the terms of this offer as it is a "classic" slot.

While RTG operators may be unhappy that this little "nugget" is out of the bag,

well, Phyngster started it:p
 

phynqster

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Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Location
los angeles, ca
While RTG operators may be unhappy that this little "nugget" is out of the bag,

well, Phyngster started it:p
Yeah go ahead and shoot the messenger. LOL
One thing I would like to point out since we have changed the topic slightly is that with the 10% max cash out rule, you need to remember that in casinos who offer that and have large bonuses, the majority of the money in the jack pot is not real money it is bonus money.
It would be like a Las Vegas slot tournament where they use a special bank of machines for the tournament where people get unlimited spins to see who gets the most points, to than let someone cash out the money/points earned
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Yeah go ahead and shoot the messenger. LOL
One thing I would like to point out since we have changed the topic slightly is that with the 10% max cash out rule, you need to remember that in casinos who offer that and have large bonuses, the majority of the money in the jack pot is not real money it is bonus money.
It would be like a Las Vegas slot tournament where they use a special bank of machines for the tournament where people get unlimited spins to see who gets the most points, to than let someone cash out the money/points earned
The 10x rule can come as a nasty surprise though, soe of the complaints are from players who are unaware of the rule, only to lose the lion's share of a random jackpot. It is true that large bonuses mean that much of the jackpot has been built from bonus money, BUT RTG operators can alter the payouts of the games to compensate.

RTG casinos have a cashier screen that often shows how much needs to be wagered before a coupon can be considered spent, and funds withdrawn. Surely it would take little further effort to add an additional display of the maximum that can be cashed out for a particular coupon, the rest can then be wasted on Frozen Assets (unless the coupon excludes the classic slots of course).

Wise players simply need to do the maths, don't play when the random jackpot vastly exceeds the max cashin for the coupon you are playing, as you could find yourself not getting to keep the biggest win of your life.
 

Zoozie

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RTG casinos have a cashier screen that often shows how much needs to be wagered before a coupon can be considered spent, and funds withdrawn.
Not all RTG show how much wagering is left and it seems to be the rogue casinos not showing this.

Zoozie
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
Talk of lifetime rules, I am now DOWN over 3K at grand Prive, and guess what, that is not good enough for them, and they have bonus banned me - it's not just a bonus ban either, I can not take part in ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, not even the slot tournaments.
This explains the "bum's rush" I got with the $66,000 tournament, not that they told me at the time. Had I deposited hard and played, would they have paid me or would they have pulled this one out of the hat!

I have been cut off from bonus events before, but only where I have done well, and have a positive lifetime balance.

Grand Prive get back the wooden spoon award they earned last year for their attitude problem. Support flatly refused to give any feedback, but I rather suspect a new "Brit ban" to be on the cards, back to where it was last summer.

Perhaps depositing and losing another 3K would earn tournaments back, but to hell with it, perhaps Riverbelle will run the 2500 credit tournament again at the end of May.

End result, another 5 Gigs of space on this PC:D
 

Mousey

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Sep 12, 2004
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Up$hitCreek
Talk of lifetime rules, I am now DOWN over 3K at grand Prive, and guess what, that is not good enough for them, and they have bonus banned me - it's not just a bonus ban either, I can not take part in ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, not even the slot tournaments.
This explains the "bum's rush" I got with the $66,000 tournament, not that they told me at the time. Had I deposited hard and played, would they have paid me or would they have pulled this one out of the hat!

I have been cut off from bonus events before, but only where I have done well, and have a positive lifetime balance.
Grand Prive get back the wooden spoon award they earned last year for their attitude problem. Support flatly refused to give any feedback, but I rather suspect a new "Brit ban" to be on the cards, back to where it was last summer.

Perhaps depositing and losing another 3K would earn tournaments back, but to hell with it, perhaps Riverbelle will run the 2500 credit tournament again at the end of May.

End result, another 5 Gigs of space on this PC:D
(Been there, done that... ) Grand Prive makes a big show of congratulating winners, but then they do this sort of thing on the QT. They have a mean streak. After more than a year... they still won't even send me a freakin' newsletter. :D
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
(Been there, done that... ) Grand Prive makes a big show of congratulating winners, but then they do this sort of thing on the QT. They have a mean streak. After more than a year... they still won't even send me a freakin' newsletter. :D
What's more it makes absolutely no business sense either. They are happy to entice new players (at some risk to themselves) with the nett 500 for 500 bonus, yet a player who has gone on from this to play on a regular basis is banned even from slots tournaments, let alone bonuses, and this after they earned 3000 over 5 months from me (which could easily become 7000 over a whole year).
Where I have lost bonuses before, it has been due to me having an exceptionally good run, with the argument being that I have done well enough to get along without bonuses for now, however never before has a ban included tournaments as well.
Support admitted they had changed their target list, but if 3000 over 5 months is not good enough for them to want to retain me, they are just plain greedy!
Deposits and losses of that extent elsewhere will get me (and has), booted upstairs to VIP, not down to the basement!

I now have that 5 Gigs extra I mentioned, but Grand Bay put up one hell of a fight, I had to reboot twice, the uninstaller took longer to initialise than most MG casinos take to uninstall, and then it only pretended, and left Grand Bay intact, and the others left many files and folders behind (MG normally only retain registry keys)

On the "Big PC", I have moved them to an archive folder, and have begun to reinstall BelleRock (just in case one of the other casinos hosts a 2500 slots tournament)

A newsletter is no good anyway, as the ban includes all tournaments, even "eCogra approved" ones.
Good job they don't have any of my money, I suspect they might have started getting "funny" about documents.

To be exact, gross deposits 12,300
Gross withdrawals 8,700

Net loss on 12,300 deposits is 3,600 spread over 5 months. This looks like high rollin' VIP material, not bargain basement!

There is now the "Casino Rewards" dilemma, deposit and lose to see if tournaments come back, or forget them and look for pastures new - seems it's new players casinos want, not regular ones.

Who else runs tournaments with live scoreboards that I have not found yet?

I know about Casino Action (twice weekly), Jackpot Factory (most months), 32Red (sometimes), and Cryptologic and MG multiplayer buy in events. Others have tournaments, but not with scoreboards.
 

Mousey

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Up$hitCreek
What's more it makes absolutely no business sense either. They are happy to entice new players (at some risk to themselves) with the nett 500 for 500 bonus, yet a player who has gone on from this to play on a regular basis is banned even from slots tournaments, let alone bonuses, and this after they earned 3000 over 5 months from me (which could easily become 7000 over a whole year).
.......... Support admitted they had changed their target list, but if 3000 over 5 months is not good enough for them to want to retain me, they are just plain greedy!
Deposits and losses of that extent elsewhere will get me (and has), booted upstairs to VIP, not down to the basement!

.............. Good job they don't have any of my money, I suspect they might have started getting "funny" about documents.

To be exact, gross deposits 12,300
Gross withdrawals 8,700

Net loss on 12,300 deposits is 3,600 spread over 5 months. This looks like high rollin' VIP material, not bargain basement!

.............
Who else runs tournaments with live scoreboards that I have not found yet?

I know about Casino Action (twice weekly), Jackpot Factory (most months), 32Red (sometimes), and Cryptologic and MG multiplayer buy in events. Others have tournaments, but not with scoreboards.
GP truly have an 'odd' business ethic. Yes, I used their bonuses (they sent to me), but I also deposited at other times. Overall, a few grand down at GP casinos. Remember the 'glitch' (that wasn't really) where certain players lost their NETeller button at all (or all but one) GP casino? When enough sand was raised, the (very selective) NETeller 'glitch' was fixed -- but shortly after, these same certain players (yeah, me, for one) were among those banned from bonuses, promos, etc. I haven't trusted them ever since.

I know of no other MG tourneys -- especially with a scoreboard. Good luck. (As for GP ... good riddance. :D )
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
GP truly have an 'odd' business ethic. Yes, I used their bonuses (they sent to me), but I also deposited at other times. Overall, a few grand down at GP casinos. Remember the 'glitch' (that wasn't really) where certain players lost their NETeller button at all (or all but one) GP casino? When enough sand was raised, the (very selective) NETeller 'glitch' was fixed -- but shortly after, these same certain players (yeah, me, for one) were among those banned from bonuses, promos, etc. I haven't trusted them ever since.

I know of no other MG tourneys -- especially with a scoreboard. Good luck. (As for GP ... good riddance. :D )

Now you mention it, I remember. Perhaps the problem is my deposit method, rather than my history. I have not had any trouble with a disappearing Neteller button. On top of that, I am a Brit playing in Pounds, and Brits were not formerly eligible for the bonuses until they suddenly started a marketing campaign with snail mail CDs.
Perhaps it is a case of me depositing TOO MUCH, rather than not enough to be retained. With Neteller, I could easily have taken the $50,000 tournament due to the amount I could have amassed, and it was in the run up to this that I suddenly had "trouble", ensuring I was discouraged from pursuing further my efforts to qualify for the final.
Oddly enough, only the week before I had a phone call from them boasting they had already paid to my Neteller on the Friday, and earlier they suggested I was being looked at with a view to going on the "upper deck", possibly there version of a VIP upgrade.
Something must have happened to make them back away sharply from players similar to my profile, Neteller depositors playing in UK Pounds (entirely justified in my case).
This also confirms my suspicion that eCogra have relaxed their criteria as to who they will offer the seal to, as I cannot see why any operator this "weird" in attitude getting a seal before. Hell, even Casino Rewards got one, and FL still get to keep theirs. It seems the seal is now more of a promise to abide by eCogra arbitration rather than an indication of a truly top notch venue.
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
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Over the last months I have received several bonus bans and some of them are also not logical. At some of the casinos I was ahead, but at some I also was behind. The only thing in common was that I only or mostly played with bonuses.
Here is just a small list from memory:

49'er: After making one withdrawal right after clearing a bonus. (they closing anyway...). Got a polite mail.
All Rival casinos: They seem to share customer database I think. Have not made a withdrawal for months at any of them. Did not receive any mail at this. I am just not allowed to claim bonuses anymore.
Grand Prive'+Big Dollar: I had several good wins there and was overall winner.
Roxy+Splendido: Banned after big win.
INetBet: Banned because I only played with bonus. I used coupons every week because there was so many of them! Not really a winner. Yet a ban. But I got a very friendly mail explaining it as expected from INetBet.
Totesport: Big surprise for me. I made a 600 win without a bonus and then ban. What a shame.
Playtech: Several others, not worth mentioning. Playtech casinos share customer database?

As I said all this have happened during the last months(InetBet longer ago though). I believe the UIGEA is to blame for much of this since bans have been following me ever since, while the only ban I had in the two previous years was from Casino Rewards, which everyone that made a withdrawal got.

Zoozie
 

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