Legally Rigged (very long)


Full Member
Sep 29, 2003
Under the Radar
Hi there 4oak,

I very much appreciated your post. It was thoughtful and very well put together. You shed some light on what I've been thinking and was just talking to someone about yesterday.

My judgement may be a little bit influenced by most recent MG 6 hour Aces and Faces marathon session (probably around 2400 hands +/-) that included exactly zero 4oak's. I know that with true randomness, anything is possible in the short run, but the odds are stacked against what I just finished up. I have no idea as to how to run the math, but again I know that this doesn't happen very often.

I also would consider myself at least pretty close to an expert video poker player, and am in fact significantly up over my 10+ years of playing online.

I've never done the research that you have and probably couldn't explain my understanding of the mathematics/probabilities involved nearly as well as you have, but I share your thoughts and recent experience. I also am in no way a conspiracy theorist and in fact have always subscribed to the camp that believes that as long as I stick to accredited, reputable casinos, the house edge is all that I'm up against but I've also always believed that I'm dealing with a random shuffle. I've always suspected that the games just play different online, but could never put my finger on it or explain it. Your theory has put into words what I've thought for many years.

Based on your experience, do you think that this theory runs true to all platforms? If not, what software provider do you spend most of your time playing?

If you are in fact correct, I am now also highly suspect of the indian casinos that are all over my state of Oklahoma. I don't remember what the rtp % rules are that apply to them, but I do remember the numbers being ridiculous. I am really curious now as to how the VP games that are in these casinos work as well. The paytables are stupid low, and I've always just thought that that is the only difference.

Thanks again!



Now we can do business.
Jul 18, 2004
Pacific NW
Nice post.

Years ago I was playing single hand VP on some god-awful software and was dealt 2 king of hearts with 3 other cards. Took me a second to realize something was wrong. Made a great screenshot, but lost it.

As far as blackjack, who could ever forget about Casino Bar?


Dormant account
Jan 30, 2006
Los Angeles
...For example it could not only decide when you hit deal if you are going to win, but also how much its going to pay. So it could well be that if you show 11 and hit, you could have 21, if you double though you could well get a low 2 or 3

...and how far above or below RTP for that game you happen to be at the time you select double on that 11. You are exactly right - why none of the operators of electronic games in b&m casinos or their online counterparts have any complaints against having virtual dealers and virtual decks of cards. Who is going to check to see that the game is behaving as though it is actually shuffling a real deck/s of cards (randomness) and dealing from the top of the deck? Yes, NOBODY. So all of these games are alike.


Time sure flys
May 24, 2008
Now I am bummed.

I always wondered why it seemed that some card games, especially black jack and solitary did appear to play like a slot game. Now I need to find a new hobby. Seriously, I always thought that it was mandatory (I guess in my own mind) that all cards games consisted of a 52 card deck or some multiple of 52, with each and every card having exactly the same probability of showing up on the first pick. When I play on-line card games, I expected that those games were programed exactly to imitate real physical cards. Anything less than that is flat out cheating, unless disclosed. I am obviously dreaming because there is no way to prove it one way or another (unless code were viewed, but even then, how many can really read it?).

If it is suggested that it is possible at some casinos that these games are not being dealt like a normal fricken deck of cards, then why would the casinos do that? To trick me into playing slots?

If and when I play slots, I understand that the house is guaranteed to win over the long run. I am sure that most do not think the same way with the on-line card games the OP mentioned.

4oak - I am curious to see what you find out.

One question I have, is whether or not it is known why those "slots in cards clothing" machines are no longer present in Atlantic City?