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Legally Rigged (very long)

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by 4 of a kind, Mar 18, 2010.

    Mar 18, 2010
  1. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    Before we even get into this thread let’s clearly define two words we use often in casino talk. Cheating- Review the Absolute Poker and the Ultimate Bet scandal. That’s out right hands down cheating. Now the second word is RIGGED. Technically there are two rigs. The legal rigged and then there’s the cheating rigged. The legal rigged would be when games offered from a program like slots and other games they are programmed with a fixed house edge. Let’s say just for example, that according to regulators of course depending on where any casino purchased their license to operate, the house edge that’s programmed into the game must never be above 20%. (Or 80% RTP) As long as the casino never goes below 80% RTP, the games would be considered legal for that jurisdiction. As long as the casino operates in that 20% max house edge range these games would be considered Legally Rigged. Should a casino get caught operating over that 20% house edge would then be classified as Illegally Rigged and cheating.


    In addition classification of games being offered like Video Poker and BJ just to name two can be classified as slot machines and or random games. Now that we got that out of the way, let me carry on.


    In a recent thread here a BJ player was questioning the fairness involving online casinos BJ software. I responded with a post explaining how I personally felt the RTP’s are way lower as of late then they have been in the past from my years of experiences playing online video poker. I also said this could apply to all other online games being offered since I believe their playing off a set RTP program like slot machines.


    Nissosbar, responded to my post in that thread, saying that my comments if were fact, would confirm that the games other then slots being offered online are rigged. Yes, he would be right if BJ and video poker pay-outs are to be based on a 52 card random draw. (53 card decks with Joker in play) On a truly random draw in these games, video poker’s actual RTP would be based on a player’s combined perfect play and the pay-out scale shown with the video poker game one might select to play. While playing video Black Jack on a truly random 52 card draw the actual RTP would also be based on a player’s ability to play perfect strategy.


    We all know that slots are in fact technically rigged since the house does have a built in edge figured into the software guaranteeing them long term positive results, since of course these games couldn’t exist otherwise, and luck becomes the key factor for any win. In addition we also know that the RTP can and will be changed periodically one way or the other on these games. Video poker and video BJ games if truly random dealt, a players approach and strategy can alter the RTP’s outcome one way or another. Although video poker and BJ are mathematically proven to give the house an edge from the get go with random dealing, that house edge realistically can be reduced slightly by a player using perfect play proven strategies.


    So, if these programmed games offered online are in fact based on 100% random draws, my comments that I made about the casinos lowering the RTP on these card games would be absolutely correct that I’m claiming the games are rigged, and therefore should be considered nothing more then a slot machine. That is of course if in fact these games are being played with random deals in the first place.


    Anyhow, back to the million dollar question, are the card games offered online nothing more then slot machines that are legally rigged?


    I asked a very good old friend of mine who considers himself a professional BJ player, (and who I’ve had endless personal discussions debating online gaming) to send me again some interesting information he once sent me a while ago about online BJ and video poker since I was going to make a thread about it here. He spends days if not weeks in casinos and with his card counting ability and money management he has confirmed his ability to show long term profit. Many here would consider him a substantial better, but I could confirm he’s not careless. He’s also gifted with knowing when to pull the plug either being up or down. He has amazed a small fortune throughout his life (not from gambling) and has retired for the most part. Although his wife passed several years ago from cancer, and after recovering from that tragic loss, losing his traveling partner amongst everything else that vanishes with a close family death, he decided to make BJ his full time hobby. I myself would enjoy very much retiring and having not only the funds but a casino being used as nothing more then a hobby house. Regardless, he spent a good year investing in his BJ talents online and concluded long ago, that he couldn’t achieve the same results online as live play. He’s convinced it’s just no where the same as live. Remember this is only one mans opinion and I’m sure there are 5 others that will swear their killing online BJ to every one that can’t. Myself at one time being a substantial live BJ player, didn’t take long to realize BJ online wasn’t for me. My first experience playing an online casino way back when, I spent my first month playing BJ and after losing several thousand dollars, moved to video poker and never looked back. Yet, throughout the years when I was having a great session online and was enjoying a decent profit, I still occasionally would visit the BJ game for a quick go of it only to be quickly disappointed again.


    Here’s one of the articles which refers to Nevada and Atlantic City.


    Do The Casinos Cheat At Video Games

    So I had to do my homework. My fellow gaming writers have assumed that because New Jersey is a regulated state, its regulations are the same as Nevada concerning video-poker machines. Had anyone really bothered to talk to the members of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission or ask to see a copy of the regulations? If the anonymous letter writer in Blackjack Forum was right—New Jersey did not have the same rules governing video-poker machines as did Nevada.
    I called the New Jersey Casino Control Commission to see if I could ease my fears or fuel my fire. After all, the control commissions of the various gaming jurisdictions set the rules that the casinos must abide by. Supposedly these commissions exist to protect us—the players. I spoke with Tony DiFlorio who told me that while the video-poker machines must conform to the same payback percentage range as any other slot machine, that is 83% to 99% return, "they are considered slot machines" and that there are no separate requirements for them as in Nevada. When I asked him if they must be based on a totally random shuffling of the cards, and that each hand must theoretically appear with its expected frequency, he stated that there were only two criteria for the machine. The first— “that it falls within the payback scheme” (83% to 99%) and the second that "every sequence be in the programming."
    "But that means," I said, " that if a natural royal flush is a 40,000 to one shot, the machine could be programmed to pay it once in every 300,000 hands or more?"
    "Yes," he said. "The machine has to have the royal flush sequence in the programming just as a slot machine would have to have for example the triple 7's but the frequency is up to the programming."
    Two days later I received a set of the regulations from John M. Kovac, Administrative Practice Officer for the New Jersey Casino Control Commission concerning slot machines in New Jersey. No distinctions were made between video-poker and other slots. The information that Mr. DiFlorio had given me checked out. Indeed, the letter writer to Blackjack Forum had been correct. Video-poker machines in Atlantic City are slot machines and the probabilities are not necessarily the same as they would be for similar machines in Nevada. Remember, Nevada is based strictly on the random shuffling of 52 (or 53) cards. The hands will appear in the long run within their expected frequency range. This does not have to be so for New Jersey Casinos. The game will be random, yes, but random the way a slot machine is random—that is, based on a program that dictates the probabilities and not based on the probabilities in a 52 (or 53) card deck.
    The bottom line? Here it is. For those of you who can play in Nevada, assuming the problem of like-card discard was just a "blip" or at worst a programming flaw in some machines as Dr. Schneider suggested, all the strategies in this book can be confidently applied because the game is what it appears to be—video poker based on a random shuffle with no variable programming or secondary decisions. The hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run.
    Unfortunately, I can't recommend the Atlantic City video-poker games because I can't be confident that the strategies outlined in this book would be the most effective strategies to play on variable programming machines or secondary decision machines—especially for the supposedly better-paying machines. If, for example, the royal flush is a one in 1,000,000 chance instead of a one in 40,000 chance in Atlantic City—a Draw Poker Jacks-or-Better hand such as ten of spades, jack of spades, queen of spades, king of spades and a king of hearts would probably return more by keeping the two kings and discarding the other cards. You might have to play the Atlantic City game based on the "a bird in the hand is worth more then two in the bush" principle. Take your little wins when you get them and be happy. For Atlantic City, the best principles to use would be to choose a video-poker machine as you would choose a slot machine. Use the money management techniques of a slot player because you could be playing a slot machine dressed in video-poker machine's clothing.
    But what of other jurisdictions in America? With gambling fever spreading like wild fire throughout the country how can players know what they're playing? They can if they take the time to look over the regulations governing the machine games in the casinos where they wish to play. All regulatory states must explain the criteria of their machines. New Jersey isn't cheating the players (technically)—the rules clearly show what their machines have to be—slot machines returning 83 to 99 percent. The fact that the players and gaming authorities assumed the New Jersey rules were the same as Nevada is their fault.



    Here is another interesting article he sent me; I thought this also would be an interesting read, and bolded some comments I thought were important.


    Video poker machines use random number generators to determine which cards to deal. This makes the dealing completely random. For this reason, the odds of being dealt a winning hand after the pre-draw are entirely predictable. However, the odds of winning after the discard depend on your discarding strategy.

    There have been reports that some Chinese video poker machines contain switches inside the machine that will make the machine run differently and reduce the payout frequency. However, in the United States, the machines must randomly generate the cards, and they must pay out as posted on the payout schedule for each machine. Regulations can differ from state to state, but all states have regulations to ensure that video poker machines operate fairly.

    There are gambling groups that keep an eye on how various games, including video poker, are being run. This includes Nevada Gaming Control and other groups. These groups watch for machines that appear to be biased and get rid of them. They often find the biased machines due to reports received from customers in the casinos.

    Anyone, particularly the software developer, can claim any payout percentage they want. Without independent auditing (from a reputable firm like Price Waterhouse Coopers, for example) these numbers mean absolutely nothing.

    In Nevada and most other locations in the U.S. where casino gambling is legal, the software used in any video poker or video blackjack game has to be approved by the state’s Gaming Control Board or other government entities. In most states (but not all), the law requires that for video games that represent card games, the cards must be dealt randomly from a full 52-card deck or decks. In these games, the house edge on a machine can be accurately determined by a player simply by looking at the machine’s payout schedule and rules. If the payout schedule and rules would give the house a ½% edge dealing fairly from a full 52-card deck or decks, you know that you will be giving up ½% on every bet you place in this game.

    So by crooked, I mean any software in which a game is either not being dealt from a full 52-card deck, or in which the cards are not being dealt randomly. Instead, the games are rigged to pay out at fixed percentages just like slot machines.

    The fear of this type of crooked software is what keeps most gamblers from playing at Internet casinos. If you are playing blackjack at a land-based casino, and you keep getting stiffs and busting, it is annoying but tolerable because you know you won’t keep getting stiffs and busting forever. Sooner or later you will get your fair share of good cards. But if you are in an unknown Internet casino and you keep busting your stiffs—now there is a really helpless feeling.

    In a casino where the software is rigged to give the house a higher edge, the cards may never even out. You may keep busting your stiffs and losing your double downs, or never getting royals or 4 of a kinds or flushes or even pairs of jacks or better, because the software is designed specifically to deal you cards that will make you lose.

    Crooked software is perfectly legal in some states and foreign countries. Professional players reported on rigged blackjack and video poker in South Carolina and other places. In South Carolina, the players contacted various manufacturers of crooked machines, and learned that the house edge there could be set at up to the state regulatory limit of 20%. The edge on one game came from changing the dealer’s hole card depending on the cards the player had received. If the player had already busted, for example, the dealer would receive a small card to go with his ten up. If the player had a 19 against a dealer Ten, the dealer would receive a Ten in the hole.

    Another manufacturer of machines in use in South Carolina rigged the games by stacking the deck against players—that is, by shuffling the cards so that a large proportion of the high cards were simply placed behind the cut card. The South Carolina Department of Revenue had approved this software as complying with state regulations.

    These types of software are legal to use in Internet casinos as well, unless the country where the casino is physically located or licensed prohibits the use of such software. Nevertheless, while this software may be legal, just as it may be legal to set a slot machine to win whatever percentage the casino wants, most players would not consider these games fair.



    I know these articles are based on land based casinos in the U.S.A. but are monitored and controlled by Casino Control Regulators. One could only imagine what regulators in third world countries consider fair.


    I searched endlessly online trying to find out whom and where are these regulators and their rules for online casinos operating and located in these third world countries. I to a degree know my way around with a computer, but maybe someone here could actually find this information out for all of us.


    I would be very interested in also knowing the maximum house edge that any one site can actually be implementing at any given time (if they choose to) which would be totally legal based on the country, state, or providence’s regulatory limit they operate from? What happens if an audit proves their paying less then the local jurisdictions approval from which they operate from? Do they even have a limit on house edge? How often is an audit even required based on their regulations? Are they (audits) in fact even mandatory or a periodic must, or randomly done by surprise by regulators? Are audits done just voluntarily by the casinos when they feel like it to allegedly please the players? If audits are done once a year for online casinos, do they consist of the entire year of all the casinos player’s logs combined which would probably be in the billions of hands? Do they just audit let’s say the last month or two? We know land based casinos post monthly their RTP’s based on regulators findings. Can online casinos have lower RTP’s during any given year while players are reading about their last audit a year ago? Would they just crank them back up again knowing when their going to get audited a month or two in advance? What do the regulators do about rogue operators? How does anyone find out the regulations and rules for the games offered?


    Us player’s really don’t know shit about the inner workings of any online casino or any of the laws they abide by. We only know what anyone feels like telling us. Not one casino operator ever come forward and tells us anything about anything except how unlucky we are. Maybe “maddog” who use to post here could shed some light on this subject.


    Good accredited casinos do in fact post their audits from reputable companies that do in many cases actually show their RTP average. But based on what I just said above, how accurate are these audits in real time?


    Sorry for drifting again, and although I find these topics interesting I should get back to the video poker / BJ debate.


    Can any one here tell me where it’s posted at any online casino that any video card game is based on a 100% random draw?


    Until I started playing video poker online a decade ago, I never played much of any slot games throughout my live play at land based casinos. When I got into online video poker I obviously felt the game was fair enough to keep playing but truly wasn’t able to compare it to any previous experiences live. Whether video poker is random or slot machine play online I enjoyed it and was satisfied with the results even though I’m a long term loser doing it. Obviously in my warped mind I found the expense to be reasonable for the amount of time and gambling thrill I purchased.


    I played millions of hands during this time and stand by my contentions that online gaming is not what it once was, and value my opinion based on my personal long term experience playing it. I consider myself a master of video poker, and my strategy is perfect (except for the occasional mis-click) and it never changes. I played through ruthless months of terrible play but always was able to rebound somewhat eventually. Whatever the reason may be for this change and there are several possibilities, it has changed as of late.

    Of course I had several cash outs, some of which I mentioned here, but there use to be many more that would help reduce the total lose column keeping the play at a reasonable cost.

    I’m convinced that the past year the play started to go south and especially over the past three months. Last year and several before I foolishly closed the year with loses way over budget. This year I’ve already lost 70% of my annual online budget in less then the first quarter. If the cards were being dealt random during this whole 10 years of play then explain to me why the sudden change. Big hits that also come with big odds are no where to be found. If a royal flush is 40k to 1 - I’m at 400k and still no hit. All other big 4 of a kind hits are no where to be found. I’m not just talking about a bad couple of sessions. I’m talking about over a year of endless deposits with hundreds of thousands of hands. Same professional play throughout, with same software provider (RTG).


    The only thing recently taking place, and by recently I mean over a year, is that video poker online is in fact not random at all, and the only possible explanation is that the RTP’s have been seriously reduced. Case Closed


    I’ve decided as far as online gaming goes I’m going to reduce my casino deposits and concentrate more with online poker again. The gaming thrill I’ve enjoyed over the past decade playing online casinos will have to get weaned off like quitting smoking. First I’ll reduce deposits by 50%, if things continue for the worse then 75% then 100%, with the hopes of things getting back to normal before I eventually lose my entire annual online budget and fully withdraw. No way will I allow myself to go over budget again this year.


    Not sure how much online poker I can take anymore either, and see my future with many more visits to land casinos and private clubs, other then the occasional visits I only took in the recent past, as a result of the fun I once was having online.


    I also understand there are many confirmed and well run accredited online casinos. But what good is all the great support, quick payouts, etc. without a reasonable game. How much someone is willing to spend for that gaming thrill does come with a limit for most people.


    My decision to reduce and or eliminate online gaming has nothing to do with any casino cheating, or what anyone has to say. I always thought video poker was never random online but didn’t care as long as I felt it was fair. With the present settings I can’t say I still feel that way.


    Please don’t try to twist this post into a sore losers rant. I’m totally capable of taking my lumps, and have taken much worse throughout my gambling career. My online budget is exactly that. If I lose it I lose it, there’s always next year.


    The truth of the matter here is I find it rather sad that I find myself backed into a corner at this time with online gaming. But at this point at least for me it’s becoming common sense. I learned many gambling lessons the hard way throughout my life, and know I must stick to my present thoughts.

    So, are the video games online random or Legally Rigged Slot Machines??
     
    13 people like this.
  2. Mar 18, 2010
  3. DarkMage

    DarkMage Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Bond Fund Investor
    Location:
    USA
    Wow, I will never gamble in South Carolina in my life after reading this.

    Times have certainly changed...unemployment is sky high in the USA putting the squeeze on the Casinos to lower the already terrible payouts to even less. The "table" and "video poker" games were never random in the first place, they might as well be put under the slot machine category because it's all preset.

    Nice post BTW..it is a really good read for everyone who is unsure if they want to invest the time into reading it.
     
  4. Mar 18, 2010
  5. paul02085

    paul02085 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Fishing :)
    Location:
    USA
    The video poker machines in S.C. have been gone for like 5 yrs now.
     
  6. Mar 18, 2010
  7. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    Yes, I'm aware of that. Printed that article just to prove a point of what could be done. Wonder what would happen to online if we were able to access the same information.
     
  8. Mar 18, 2010
  9. Cant_Get_Right

    Cant_Get_Right Banned User

    Occupation:
    Work For Home
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Im going thru a battle right now with a MG casino. Where I took up an 100% offer the other day. I lost get this 52/56 hands of blackjack. Using basic stratgy. The are refusing to do anything about it. This is totally unacceptable. And Im NOT going to just give my $200 away like this. If I double down on 11 I get a 3 or 4 everytime. If I switch to 3 hand. I get dealt 14 16 18 and dealer got 20. This happened like 8 times in a row. One hand I got get this (7) 8 cards split, split, split, etc. Versus Dealer 6. Just for the dealer to pull a 5 and get 21.

    This is NOT a fair game. I don't care if they ban me forever. Im not going to lose my money like this.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. Mar 18, 2010
  11. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    Wow, 4oak. Very righteous rant. I did not know that about video poker in Atlantic City. That does change everything for me. Won't bother now.

    I hardly go anymore as it is, but now I have one less reason.

    I doubt most people were aware of the fact that the video poker does not have to be 'real'.
     
  12. Mar 18, 2010
  13. lost2much

    lost2much Banned User

    Occupation:
    pharmacy
    Location:
    NorCal
    I've often wondered if the casinos use another form of "legal" rigging whereby they skue the RTP in VP by giving an inordinate amount of smaller wins (straights,flushes,etc.) to jack up the RTP without paying out the bigger wins. This way they can always say "sorry you lost, but your RTP is 96% (for example). Technically you are within the expected RTP, but you never win anything of mention. ???????
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Mar 19, 2010
  15. Westland Bowl

    Westland Bowl Tin Foil Hat Club Member CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    not applicable
    Location:
    America
    Frickin' potty! Only 4 wins out of 56??? That's only 7%!!! :eek:
     
  16. Mar 19, 2010
  17. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    So. where are all the CASINO REPS now?????

    You would think that at least one would show their face here challenging my accusations that BJ and Video Poker are in fact nothing more then slot machines online.

    How about just one of you letting us players know where we could read about the regulations your casino must abide by, wherever it is you operate from?? Or is this information secret and not for the public eyes??? At least tell us if you have any regulations being enforced??

    Once again I'm sure all will remain hiding in cyberspace as usual, keeping the cat in the bag. But rest assured that they'll make an appearance or show up when there is some $25.00 bonus issue that needs dealing with, showing how great and responsive they are.
     
  18. Mar 20, 2010
  19. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    I sent 12 private messages to 12 different casino reps that frequent this site, requesting information on regulators:

    Hello,

    My name is Carl, my screen name is 4 of a Kind...

    Can you please PM to me any information that would help me with contacting the Casino Control Commission, or any casino regulatory branch of the government your casino operates from? I'm interested in reviewing the criteria and rules that apply for your casino. Any information would be much appreciated.

    Thank you,

    Carl (4 of a Kind)



    So far Tradition and Mr. Ed Ware from 32 Red were only respondents with information. I'm now preparing a letter to Curacao, Kingdom of the Netherlands, requesting detail information on game regulations. Then will do same for Government of Gibraltar.

    Will follow up as soon and if I get a response.
     
    4 people like this.
  20. Mar 20, 2010
  21. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    Hiya: This is like when Station Casino's, here in Vegas, put the message on the billboard up that says, "Progressive Jackpot at $112,000, must hit by $115,000".

    How does a totally randon RNG KNOW it is suppose to hit in the next $3000 played?:confused:
     
  22. Mar 20, 2010
  23. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    Thought this was pretty funny...

    Here's a response I got today from a casino in my quest for information. I didn't print the name since it appears there not to impressed with the government they operate out of.


    Hi Carl,

    i am not sure i really understand what you want.

    If you want any response from the Malta Gaming Authority you should show up there in person with a drawn weapon.

    They invented bureaucracy!

    We will soon switch to a place where we could get an answer by just making a phone call.
     
  24. Mar 20, 2010
  25. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    slight derail

    hello all .just my take on rng software ive been playing for around ten years plus & as spent more than a fair bit, i could well say that what 4 of kind is saying is bang on imho ,ive long thought this myself after spending over 50k at intercasino a few years ago that the software does in fact most of time counter acts whatever you play this isnt random by any means people come here lately including myself to have a moan but in fact most of the players have a full right to complain when youve spent 20 deposits & you get the same old sh*t everytime of play ,you then go to customer support & say whats up with your casino games same reply everytime your having yet another & another bad run, i play at all different casinos so can easily see the same pattern with with most of the software of the big 3 mg rtg playtech , now it just isnt all the players being incorrect about what there saying there is some thruth behind what there thinking , if this was a true random play you would more than likely get up & downs but people are getting these ups just the opposite ,i was having a chat with a casino rep the other day & he told me that rng cards slots etc etc are all counted as the same games , so if you ws thinking that slots is % & card is a different game you would be wrong they take into account all of these games combined , so lets say you have a good run at video poker for 500+ & then go onto slots & lose the 500 its all counted the same way doesnt matter to what game your playing ,the only rule is different is live games which is mostly flash based so im unsure to how this works but i bet they could tell your % play on live games ,i also thimk that some accounts from the start are just set to win regardless of what games you play for a while many many new accounts ive done very very well on then you get the turning point you cant tell me that this is not correct if youve been playing online for as long as i have, i just think that when the forum members troll into someone for saying something along those lines of rigged bent or whatever else they say you should try & have a hard think of all those times youve been playing & thinking something doesnt feel right here because most punters with years of play behind do think like this & yes you can come up with the 1000000 s hands played etc etc which to be honest counts for nothing at all , if lets say 5000 casinos players all lost there first 10 hands =50000 the software does not have to look at all these losing hands because its over 20+ casinos so it can be easily hidden throughout all the combined casinos, & yes it could be done on a big scale even if casino a report was at 92.1 % december cards etc etc , im not moaning about losing because if you cant afford to lose dont play but i will satnd up for all players where you get zero game play for many deposits doesnt matter what your wagering is you should at least get some game play which isnt happening , also i see a slight decline in screenshots atm along with withdrawal problems aswell with rival not good for any players , & a big thumbs up to rob for making a very good post about it , best of luck mr jones
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Mar 22, 2010
  27. sparkz

    sparkz Senior Member

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    Earth
    I'll copy and paste what i posted on another forum concerning something recent that happened:


    hmmm... cant believe what I just saw... was playing at a casino. Not mentioning any names but some bug happened in the software/my pc which actually let me replay a hand of BJ I had almost completed.

    I always thought "well if i had of hit I would of hand 21, but i stood and the dealer beat me with 20" in some hands but this showed me completely that when you start a game of online blackjack 3 results are always the outcome. Win, Lose or Push. Its decided before you play so whatever actions you do will give that result selected before you play.

    I totally wish I had done some screenshots of it but it came out of nowhere and I was shocked.

    The hand was where Dealer was showing a 7, I had 2 10's. So I thought splitting was worth a try.

    Split hand 1: Had 12, hit, got a 10 so busted
    Split hand 2: Had 16 and stood
    Dealer: Turns over a 10, so 17, wins

    Then the software went weird. The "Hit" and "Stand" buttons were still on the screen but clicking them did nothing. The whole thing had froze. I exited the game. Went back in and it said I had an unfinished game. It was that game I just lost however it went back to the stage where I was on my second split hand and gave me a choice of "hit" or "stand".

    I was suprised to see this but nevertheless I played on. I thought I had a better chance of winning that second split hand now because I knew the dealer had 17. I hit and got a 3 so 19. It appeared that I had won.

    I couldnt believe it when the dealer turned over his final card. It wasnt that 10 I had seen before. It was an 8 or something and he ended up having 20.

    Thats really changed my ideas about playing online blackjack ever again. It has to be as I mention above that as soon as you click deal the results are decided whatever you do (of course as long as you dont hit on a 20 or something like that)
     
  28. Mar 22, 2010
  29. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Loafer
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    As far as I can tell, every online blackjack game is exactly this without exception. The worst I ever experienced was at Absolute Poker - you know the side bj game they had? I swore that was the crookedest BJ game on earth at least a full year before they were ever accused of allowing transparent hand cheating at the poker tables. There are one or two bj tables equally bad operating now at other sites. One would actually show the numeric card total display change in favor of the dealer as the dealer "flipped over'' his down card! After complaining and given a lame excuse by support discounting this phenomena the game was fixed so that the "magic changing" hole card was no longer being exposed in the displayed card totals. This very game, without the tattletale display, is offered at a site listed in the current CM accredited list and is a CM award winner.

    Video Poker games, online and in b&m casinos, are all slots. All slots perform, not only according to how they are programmed by the manufacturer, but how they are played. The player has an active role in play to play performance by making various selections of combinations of lines bet + coins per line. All contribute to the algorithms used by each game to determine how much it is taking in vs how much it is paying out. Since there aren't multiple lines on most video poker games, additional player input is derived by the players choice of coin size, for multi denomination machines or games, the number of total coins bet per hand, usually 1 - 5 coins and the choice of cards held by the player.

    Since programming is written right to left, for video poker, the user interface programing is also led from the left in terms of the five cards held. The dominant card in influencing the cards drawn is positioned on the left of the screen as this is the first instruction in the line of programming by the player which is the 5 cards held or discarded and the remaining 4 cards are weighted with diminishing influence for each of the four places moving left to right. This is why strategy for live cards is useless on video poker.

    I will post the strategy for Jacks or Better single hand video poker that I was taught in B & M casinos which has held 100% true for any Jacks or Better VP game in casinos or online. I have had over a dozen royal flushes in the last year online and in b&m casinos. The following may not seem to offer the best odds at a royal flush of 4 of a kind in every instance of gameround but the cumulative effect from a series of hands played in the following manner will cultivate royal flushes and 4 of a kinds as well as a higher percentage of lessor winning hands playing Jacks or Better. On Friday I hit a $1 x 5 RF online playing double double bonus poker holding the 10s, As which paid $4,000 and several weeks ago hit a RF on a B&M Super Aces quarter machine from holding a single Ah which paid $1,000 on a $0.25 x 5 bet.

    First of all the main strategy is never hold unsuited face cards. If dealt a Jc 2h Qd Ks 9c discard everything but the Jc, the card on the left end of the 5 card array. Leaving the maximum number of slots open for the draw means more opportunities to draw more Js. By holding all 3 of the unsuited faces only 2 slots are open to catch either another J, Q or K and the chances for a four card draw to flush, full house, four of a kind, straight flush or royal flush are eliminated. The exception to this rule is an A in the far right slot when no 10, J, Q or K of the same suit is dealt. In this instance only hold the A dealt to the far right. Otherwise the face card on the left end is always held when all of the faces dealt are unsuited. Additionally, the left slot being dominant, or first in the equation dealt, you will find, over time, that you will draw substantially more Js, as in this instance, than Qs or Ks which were discarded from less dominant slots to the right of the Jh.

    In bonus Jacks or Better games where the As are given prominence in the payout schedules, hold the single A regardless of position. Otherwise, all of these rules apply.

    Only hold two cards of a suit if they are 10 - A and no pair or higher or was dealt.

    Only hold 3 cards of a suit if they will reach to a straight flush. Holding 3 suited cards for a regular flush is not worth the payout in exchange for lost jacks or better hands potentially sacrificed for this practice

    Bet max bet or 5 coins on each consecutive hand if Js or better is the final outcome. If Js or better are not realized, bet one coin on the following hand and immediately revert to 5 coins no matter what the outcome of the 1 coin bet hand was. Continue to alternate between 1 and 5 coins unless Js or better are realized in consecutive hands.

    If, after several gamerounds, Js or better are not realized after alternating for 1 to 5 coins, change coin denominations, if available (as on .05, .10, .25, .50, 1.00, etc VP games). Raise or lower coin denomination depending on regular, bankroll management practices. If the game is single denomination and Js or better cannot be achieved buy alternating between 1 and 5 coin bets, quit.
    bonus jacks or better this is also true.

    Never hold 3 suited faces in favor of pairs. You can test this by playing in play mode at any site offering play mode and hold 3 cards to a royal while discarding a pair and you will notice the game offer you more and more of the same. I've seen 3/5 hands dealt as a pair + 3 suited faces - every hand a loser if the pairs discarded, over a period of a dozen or two dozen gamerounds. Just like any computer, "garbage in, garbage out."

    On occasion you may be dealt low pairs from 2-6 and 2 suited faces in a long series of consecutive hands. In this case, alternate between holding low pairs and the two suited faces starting from an even money payout from either holding the pairs and drawing trips or holding the suited faces and drawing Js or better.

    If I can think of anythng to add I'll post again.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Mar 22, 2010
  31. funky_seagull

    funky_seagull Dormant account

    Occupation:
    unemployed, on incapacity benefit.
    Location:
    scotland
    Arg you should never split a pair of tens. You should always stand with 20. I have had a similar experience not playing blackjack but deal or no deal on my mobile. I lost connection and the game carried on playing right up to the point when the banker makes an offer, which I thought was odd as when I was disconnected I had only picked one box. The deal was not a good one as I had picked the box with the highest amount in, so I clicked on no deal and my phone tried to reconnect to server. I suddenly lost battery power and I had to put in a new battery. I loaded up the game again and it started off right from the beginning before I had picked my first box. So knowing what amounts I had got in the boxes I had picked before I avoided the box which had had the highest amount in, but whatever number box I picked, the highest amount would spring up. This was after deliberately switching off my phone during play and logging back in again, to go back to the beginning of that particular game. Not only that but the exact amounts I had got from my other boxes still appeared no matter which box I picked. Even when I did a random quick pick the results were the same, and the dealers offer was always the same. I realized the whole thing is predetermined and it doesn't matter which boxes you pick, I guess the same as a slots bonus round like tombraider were you have to pick a certain number me something. It doesn't matter what you pick, the result will always be the same as it has been predetermined. Discovering this put me off playing because it spoilt the fun really. Knowing what you do has no effect on the outcome, misses the point me deal or no deal. I guess that is the only way they could program it to work on a mobile phone, and it doesn't mean they're cheating, as the predetermined result is pulled from a random number generator, but this knowledge does kill the excitement of the game somewhat. Maybe a lot of online casino games work on this predetermined outcome, so no matter what you do, it has no effect on the outcome. If the random result says you lose, you lose, whatever choice you make. I don't gamble anymore, not because of this but because of my own stupidity making me lose all my money. But I don't blame the software for this. I am sure it is fair, just it delivers the results completely different than in a landbased casino. If you want a proper game of blackjack, you should play with a real deck of cards at a real casino table. As the online beast is not the same, I think it is just basically video blackjack. I believe what 4 of a kind is saying is right. My experience of videopoker isn't what I was hoping for. I read that Bob Dancer said that the optimal bankroll needed to play videopoker forever without going bust would be 3 and a half times the value of a royal flush. So I gave myself a bankroll of £800 and played the 5p machine on line, may bet of 25p when you play all 5 coins. I followed the wizard of odds optimal strategy for playing full pay jacks or better and albeit after a very long time lost the whole lot without getting a royal flush. Either I am deeply unlucky which I admit is probably the case or the videopoker online behaves differently to the ones Bob Dancer plays in Vegas.
     
  32. Mar 22, 2010
  33. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Loafer
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I would agree if the dealer was showing a 7 or higher but not if the dealer is showing a 6 or less coupled with the dealer's recent propensity to bust or not bust. If your on a hot streak, the split ten bet is appropriate by varying degree. If on a losing streak, by all means stand on 20.
     
  34. Mar 22, 2010
  35. sparkz

    sparkz Senior Member

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    Earth
    the odds potentially should of been in my favour on the split to at least have 1 decent card, thats why i did it

    if for example it was a 1 deck standard 52 cards (we know it isnt but this is an example), 20/52 cards would be a 10 or equivilant, a 9 or an 8 would of been probably ok as well, so that would be a 28/52 chance which would be better than a 1/2 chance as it is, but i got 2 shots at it with the split so that greatly increases the chance.

    even winning just 1 split would of meant my money back.

    what this does show is when playing BJ its never "random". Its the same as slots where the result is determined when you click deal. i believe there only being 2 more denominators in weather you win or not. For example it could not only decide when you hit deal if you are going to win, but also how much its going to pay. So it could well be that if you show 11 and hit, you could have 21, if you double though you could well get a low 2 or 3
     
  36. Mar 25, 2010
  37. incrediblestuff

    incrediblestuff SearchingForTheHolyGrail! CAG webmeister

    Occupation:
    Currently: Self employed, Previously: Manager
    Location:
    Mostly the Netherlands
    have you received any response yet?
     
  38. Mar 26, 2010
  39. SamD

    SamD Banned User

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    my home
    [​IMG]

    :p

    but i actually have contribute to offer. for casinomiester list online casino you cannot get meister cred unless you audit and list all your games payout house advantage return to player percent. this include the evil Slot and the evil Video poker.

    so if you do not trust the online casino you must play only at the miester cred online casino. this way there can be no legal riging of the game and no illegal riging of the game. the auditation of the payout of the evil Slot and of the evil Video poker {both of who i shall kill for you soon so at least revenge will be had in your honor} is proved by independant third party so no possible bribe or no possible loophole. the third man control the code of the game at all time so this protect you.

    the reason for this is quite obvious to any eye whether the eye is naked or not naked. if the miester did not insist on this rule the online casino could legal rig their slot at 8eighty percent. and if the third man does not hold the code to the Slot and to the Video poker,the online casino could illegal rig their Slot to 2twenty percent the minute the third man fly out from costa rica island. do you see?

    when you do not play at miester cred online casino {which must be done some times to fight war against the Slot army} you are gambling outside of the game when you should only gamble inside the game.
     

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