Last chance to say no to Obama Care now

[skiny]

We already have a big fraud problem with Medicaid (healthcare for the poor) and Medicare (healthcare for the elderly). Shady medical clinics bill the government for BILLIONS of dollars each year for bogus services. We also have a big problem with people selling prescription narcotics on the street.

Maybe with the public heathcare system we have it's a little harder for the clinics to cheat the system since all billing would have to go through each person's person OHIP number which is on a card with your picture on it like a driver's license. (Actually mine doesn't have a picture because mine's probably 35 years old and I was supposed to get a new one 10 or 15 years ago. Jeeze I'm lazy.)

Anyway... You would either need to steal a lot of OHIP numbers or find a lot of people to let you use theirs. Personally I wouldn't want someone to borrow my OHIP number because with my luck if I let them bill the government for a left knee replacement 3 weeks later I'd need a left knee replaced.

I suppose stealing the numbers would work if you just kept the number after someone had some real treatment and billed OHIP once in a while for some routine visit.

Now that being said, insurance companies suffer the same fraud and either way we end up paying for it through increased premiums or increased taxes. No matter how you look at it the honest people always end up getting the shaft.

 

[bryand]

Maybe with the public heathcare system we have it's a little harder for the clinics to cheat the system since all billing would have to go through each person's person OHIP number which is on a card with your picture on it like a driver's license. (Actually mine doesn't have a picture because mine's probably 35 years old and I was supposed to get a new one 10 or 15 years ago. Jeeze I'm lazy.)

Anyway... You would either need to steal a lot of OHIP numbers or find a lot of people to let you use theirs. Personally I wouldn't want someone to borrow my OHIP number because with my luck if I let them bill the government for a left knee replacement 3 weeks later I'd need a left knee replaced.

I suppose stealing the numbers would work if you just kept the number after someone had some real treatment and billed OHIP once in a while for some routine visit.

Now that being said, insurance companies suffer the same fraud and either way we end up paying for it through increased premiums or increased taxes. No matter how you look at it the honest people always end up getting the shaft.

This points out another reason I am against bigger government. The US government is completely inept at catching military and social service fraud. Adding more government services when we cannot control the ones already in place is crazy.

 

[skiny]

OHIP should just send everyone a bill marked "PAID" whenver the card is used. That would alert them to anyone who's stolen the numbers. It's not like you could bill the government anonymously and I'm sure the price of a printing a bill and mailing it is cheaper than the money that would be lost to fraud. Borrowing people's numbers would obviously be a lot harder. Who would want to lend it? I suppose some dishonest people might get kickbacks from lending the number.

But then I guess no matter how you work any service someone is going to find a way to steal from it.

 

[bryand]

OHIP should just send everyone a bill marked "PAID" whenver the card is used. That would alert them to anyone who's stolen the numbers. It's not like you could bill the government anonymously and I'm sure the price of a printing a bill and mailing it is cheaper than the money that would be lost to fraud. Borrowing people's numbers would obviously be a lot harder. Who would want to lend it? I suppose some dishonest people might get kickbacks from lending the number.

But then I guess no matter how you work any service someone is going to find a way to steal from it.

Ok, let me explain how fraud works. You come to my medical clinic for the flu. I check your throat and ears and send you home with a prescription for whatever. I bill the government for an office visit, a chest x-ray, a saliva culture, 74 tongue depressors, etc.... Now do you get it??? Who checks 'paid' receipts if somebody paid it for them? What if I use medically crytic jargon that you don't understand? Can we stop debating how to scam someone? Just take it on faith that it happens big in the US.

 

[skiny]

Ok, let me explain how fraud works. You come to my medical clinic for the flu. I check your throat and ears and send you home with a prescription for whatever. I bill the government for an office visit, a chest x-ray, a saliva culture, 74 tongue depressors, etc.... Now do you get it??? Who checks 'paid' receipts if somebody paid it for them? What if I use medically crytic jargon that you don't understand? Can we stop debating how to scam someone? Just take it on faith that it happens big in the US.

Actually I wasn't debating that fraud happens in fact I just named off several ways it can and a suggestion that might help curtail some of it. Fraud happens everywhere. As does theft. The US isn't really special in that regard. I'm not exactly sure what your point is regarding fraud though. Are you suggesting that the US government would be more likely to be ripped off than the average insurance company? And if it's that easy to overbill the government why couldn't anyone do the exact same thing to the insurance company that pays anyone's medical expenses?

 

[bryand]

Actually I wasn't debating that fraud happens in fact I just named off several ways it can and a suggestion that might help curtail some of it. Fraud happens everywhere. As does theft. The US isn't really special in that regard. I'm not exactly sure what your point is regarding fraud though. Are you suggesting that the US government would be more likely to be ripped off than the average insurance company? And if it's that easy to overbill the government why couldn't anyone do the exact same thing to the insurance company that pays anyone's medical expenses?

ARGHHH. I give up.

 

[skiny]

ARGHHH. I give up.

 

[bryand]

For thise that want to read the House and/or Senate versions of the health care bill....

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[bryand]

Below is part of Senate health bill dealing with $100 MM benefitting Louisiana only. 20+ years in the legal profession and I can bearly understand it.

On page 432 of the Reid bill, there is a section increasing federal Medicaid subsidies for certain states recovering from a major disaster.

The section spends two pages defining which states would qualify, saying, among other things, that it would be states that during the preceding 7 fiscal years have been declared a major disaster area.

I am told the section applies to exactly one state: Louisiana, the home of moderate Democrat Mary Landrieu, who has been playing hard to get on the health care bill.

In other words, the bill spends two pages describing would could be written with a single world: Louisiana. (This may also help explain why the bill is long.)

Senator Harry Reid, who drafted the bill, cannot pass it without the support of Louisianas Mary Landrieu.

How much does it cost? According to the Congressional Budget Office: $100 million.

Heres the incredibly complicated language:

SEC. 2006. SPECIAL ADJUSTMENT TO FMAP DETERMINATION FOR CERTAIN STATES RECOVERING FROM A MAJOR DISASTER.

Section 1905 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1396d), as amended by sections 2001(a)(3) and
2001(b)(2), is amended (1) in subsection (b), in the first sentence, by striking subsection (y) and inserting subsections (y) and (aa); and (2) by adding at the end the following new subsection:

(aa)(1) Notwithstanding subsection (b), beginning January 1, 2011, the Federal medical assistance percentage for a fiscal year for a disaster-recovery FMAP adjustment State shall be equal to the following:
(A) In the case of the first fiscal year (or part of a fiscal year) for which this subsection applies to the State, the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the fiscal year without regard to this subsection and subsection (y), increased by 50 percent of the number of percentage points by which the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the fiscal year without regard to this subsection and subsection (y), is less than the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the preceding fiscal year after the application of only subsection (a) of section 5001 of Public Law 1115 (if applicable to the preceding fiscal year) and without regard to this subsection, subsection (y), and subsections (b) and (c) of section 5001 of Public Law 1115.

(B) In the case of the second or any succeeding fiscal year for which this subsection applies to the State, the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the preceding fiscal year under this subsection for the State, increased by 25 percent of the number of percentage points by which the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the fiscal year without regard to this subsection and subsection (y), is less than the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the preceding fiscal year under this subsection.

(2) In this subsection, the term disaster-recovery FMAP adjustment State means a State that is one of
the 50 States or the District of Columbia, for which, at any time during the preceding 7 fiscal years, the President has declared a major disaster under section 401 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act and determined as a result of such disaster that every county or parish in the State warrant individual and public assistance or public assistance from the Federal Government under such Act and for which (A) in the case of the first fiscal year (or part of a fiscal year) for which this subsection applies to the State, the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the fiscal year without regard to this subsection and subsection (y), is less than the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the preceding fiscal year after the application of only subsection (a) of section 5001 of Public Law 1115 (if applicable to the preceding fiscal year) and without regard to this subsection, subsection (y), and subsections (b) and (c) of section 5001 of Public Law 1115, by at least 3 percentage points; and (B) in the case of the second or any succeeding fiscal year for which this subsection applies to the State, the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the fiscal year without regard to this subsection and subsection (y), is less than the Federal medical assistance percentage determined for the State for the preceding fiscal year under this subsection by at least 3 percentage points.

(3) The Federal medical assistance percentage determined for a disaster-recovery FMAP adjustment State under paragraph (1) shall apply for purposes of this title (other than with respect to disproportionate share hospital payments described in section 1923 and payments under this title that are based on the enhanced FMAP described in 2105(b)) and shall not apply with respect to payments under title IV (other than under part E of title IV) or payments under title XXI..

 

[felicie]

Kill Socialized Medicine Today

Senate ObamaCare Cloture Vote On Saturday!

Kill the BILL Today - Stop ObamaCare In The Senate!

Alert: We Have the Chance to Kill Socialized Medicine TODAY -

Reid and Senate Democrats announced they will file cloture today on the motion to proceed regarding ObamaCare. He will go to the floor for cloture on the motion to proceed to a House-passed tax bill, to begin the Senate debate on ObamaCare.

This vote will require 60 votes and will likely occur on Saturday.

Several Democrats have said they will not vote for the bill. Remember cloture is a three day process - file on day one, day two is an intervening day and the vote occurs on day three. Reid is using a House-passed tax bill as a "shell" allowing him to offer up the language he released tonight as a substitute amendment if he gets cloture on the motion to proceed.

Reids Senate version of ObamaCare calls for:
Hiding the $1.8 Trillion price tag by not accounting for actual costs.
Major reductions in Medicare befits to seniors.
Major Tax Increases on every American to pay for it all.
Reid called for increasing the Medicare payroll tax.
Select Below to Tell the Senate to REJECT 'ObamaCare':
Select Here - SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

ALERT: We all know that "ObamaCare -- the two thousand page Democrat healthcare bill -- passed the U.S. House of Representatives last week... by THREE VOTES.

The radical leftists in the House were able to squeak their bill through...

But we have STILL have a chance to stop them in the SENATE...TODAY!
TELL THE SENATE TO REJECT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE
BETTER KNOWN AS "OBAMACARE":
SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Even after a final barrage of over eighty thousand faxes from our members that POURED in to the U.S. House... a slight majority of Congressmen still voted to destroy our freedom in health care.

Those legislators will be feeling the WRATH of voters next year -- but WE still have our work cut out for us NOW!

WE HAVE NOT LOST. The bill pushed by Obama, passed by leftist Democrats in the House -- and rejected by all but one turncoat Republican -- must now head over to the U.S. Senate...

And we CAN defeat it there!

In fact... we can stop this bill COLD TODAY. Here's how:

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) last Tuesday laid the groundwork for the Senate's healthcare reform debate to start TODAY - Tuesday, Nov. 17th. Reid filed a motion to introduce the bill yesterday, Monday, Nov. 16. Anticipating a Republican objection, the bill would be pushed onto the Senate calendar.

BUT... Reid's action last Tuesday sets up a critical vote this week on a motion to proceed to the bill. Such a motion would require 60 votes to succeed -- and there's a GOOD CHANCE that Reid does NOT have those 60 votes!

Reid needs a majority (51) to pass the motion to proceed so the Senate can begin debating and amending the bill. If Republicans filibuster this motion, he will need 60 votes to invoke cloture and shut off debate.

THIS IS IT -- one of our BEST chances to kill this bill, before it even gets off the ground!

TELL THE SENATE TO REJECT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE
BETTER KNOWN AS "OBAMACARE":
SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Remember, this bill is the worst of all possible bills. It's chock full of every far-left special interest socialistic dream imaginable. Here's some of what's in its TWO THOUSAND PAGES:

The CBO estimates that H.R. 3962, the health bill that the House passed, would cost $1.2 TRILLION over 10 years, including the cost to states for mandated Medicaid expansion ($34 billion), the "Doc Fix" ($245 billion), and authorized discretionary spending for grants, public programs, changes and funding for a variety of agencies that would be responsible for implementing H.R. 3962.
The bill protects trial lawyers. The bill gives money (authorized at "such sums") to states that enact "certificate of merit" (a document signed by a medical professional that says there is a probability that the standard of care was violated) and / or a certificate of "early offer" (an early, confidential apology) laws, as long as the states don't limit attorneys' fees or impose caps on damages.
The current version will give billions of dollars of taxpayer healthcare benefits to ILLEGAL ALIENS in America. It would allow illegal aliens to use the new healthcare "exchange" and would not require verification to keep illegal aliens out of the other parts of the proposed federal healthcare system. Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus fought back against reports that leaders would add Senate language to block illegal immigrants from participating in the insurance exchange.
It will create a nationwide federal government program, the "public option," which will pay for abortion on demand -- with federal funds, of course, because that is what federal agencies spend.
Liberals in the House AND the Senate ignored us when the majority said, "NO BAILOUT." They ignored us when the majority said, "NO FAKE STIMULUS." Now, they're trying to ignore us when the majority demands with a clear voice, "NO GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER OF HEALTH CARE!"

TELL THE SENATE TO REJECT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE
BETTER KNOWN AS "OBAMACARE":
SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

We all remember when President Obama stood in front of a joint session of Congress -- and LIED. He LIED when he said they weren't planning to set up "end-of-life panels" -- his cronies have promoted the idea for a long time now. He LIED when he said his "reforms" wouldn't insure illegal aliens -- it has been clearly shown that there would be NO WAY to prevent this from happening. He LIED when he said that his "government option" health care plan would not force taxpayers to pay for abortions -- the Obama-backed House bill would explicitly authorize the federal government insurance plan to pay for elective abortions and would explicitly authorize taxpayer subsidies for private abortion insurance.

The American people are TIRED of being lied to -- which is why over ONE MILLION of us went to Washington, D.C., to bring the voice of the MAJORITY to the doorstep of Congress. You see, the "sleeping giant" in America has been awoken... and we aren't going back to sleep... not while our own government tries to cram a socialist health care plan down our throats!

And on top of all of this... the fact remains that we can't AFFORD this plan! In the face of an estimated $1.85 trillion federal budget deficit for FY2009 and projected trillion dollar annual deficits for the foreseeable future, how can anyone in Congress vote for this health care plan, which will cost over $1 trillion over the next ten years? Plus, Congress is facing at least $53 trillion of unfunded liabilities due to its passage of the previous entitlement programs, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the recent addition of prescription drug coverage for Medicare. How can anyone in Congress vote for a new entitlement program for health care when Congress has not even begun to face up to this unfunded liabilities problem?

Well, they're trying to -- but WE can stop them, with YOUR help!

TAKE ACTION: Even the Democrats are now admitting that it's conceivable that we might not even get passage this week on the usually perfunctory motion to proceed to debate. That's because Republicans will filibuster even that, requiring 60 votes... and there are at least two Democrats who could join that filibuster.

BUT THEY NEED TO HEAR FROM US TO BE CONVINCED!

We CANNOT let the radical liberals in Congress -- and the White House -- force this plan for socialized health care on the American people! That's why we've set up our website to enable you to send a strong message to every single member of the U.S. Senate, OPPOSING this outrageous plan.

For about what it would cost you in time and telephone charges, you can send Blast Faxes to Democrats, Republicans, Independents -- EVERYONE in the U.S. Senate, DEMANDING that they REJECT this socialized health care plan NOW

We CAN do this! In 1993, First Lady Hillary Clinton tried to force a less radical form of socialized health care down our throats, thinking that they could do it since the Democrats controlled Congress AND the White House.

What was the result? 1994, and the Republican Revolution. The liberal Democrats are "shooting themselves in the foot" again by trying to pass even more radical socialized health care this time -- but we CAN stop them!

TELL THE SENATE TO REJECT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE
BETTER KNOWN AS "OBAMACARE":
SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The vote is scheduled for TODAY! Please, take action right away to STOP this bill dead in its tracks!

Defend America,

Alan Gottlieb
AmeriPAC
President and Founder
www.Ameripac.org

P.S. According to a survey of 1,000 likely voters released by the group Conservatives for Patients' Rights, 53 percent of those who say they are likely to vote in the November 2010 election oppose the "public option" type of plan just passed by the U.S. House, compared to 39 percent who like the idea.
THIS ATTEMPT BY LIBERALS TO SHOVE "OBAMACARE" DOWN OUR THROATS IS OUTRAGEOUS -- and it MUST be stopped! Send your faxes right away to make sure these Senators get a STRONG message, to REJECT the socialized plan of "Obamacare" NOW -- Thank you!

TELL THE SENATE TO REJECT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE
BETTER KNOWN AS "OBAMACARE":
SEND YOUR FAXES NOW!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Please make checks payable to AmeriPAC:
American Political Action Committee (AmeriPAC)
PO Box 1682
Dept Code 3307
Bellevue, WA 98009-3307

Paid for by AmeriPAC, a federally-authorized and qualified multicandidate political action committee. Contributions to AmeriPAC will be used in connection with federal elections. Maximum contribution per individual per calendar year is $5,000. Contributions from foreign nationals and corporations are prohibited. Contributions are not deductible for federal income tax purposes.

 

[maxd]

I have combined several threads which appear to have been on essentially the same topic.

 

[bryand]

I just couldn't resist.....


An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.

"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

The 60-year-old Williams...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[LaurieJim]

I just couldn't resist.....


An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.

"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

The 60-year-old Williams...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Great story there BryanMakes you keep hoping Obama Care will fall or fail, kinda like his poll numbers have been lately............laurie

 

[paul02085]

Obama is a Socialist/Marxist. Make no mistake about it. His ONLY goal is complete government control. In November his charade will be done with.

 

[winnington]

Just out of curiosity, for so many Americans why is it okay for the government to pay for something like transportation infrastructure (roads, highways, etc) or gradeschool education that is critical to all Americans rather than have that type of critical infrastructure privatized, but when it comes to government funded healthcare, America would be ripping up the constitution, turning socialist, and going to hell-in-a-handbasket?

Incidently, Obama's plan has very little similarity to Canada's. I'm Canadian, and am well aware that Canadian Medicare has it's share of problems, but to point to Canadian medicare's problems as to why Obama's sucks when they're so different just shows just how many haven't educated themself on the issue.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The Danny Williams fiasco has absolutely nothing to do with whether ObamaCare is good for the average American (in fact, it might even highlight the failings of American system... the rich get better treatment than the poor)

 

[bryand]

Just out of curiosity, for so many Americans why is it okay for the government to pay for something like transportation infrastructure (roads, highways, etc) or gradeschool education that is critical to all Americans rather than have that type of critical infrastructure privatized, but when it comes to government funded healthcare, America would be ripping up the constitution, turning socialist, and going to hell-in-a-handbasket?

Incidently, Obama's plan has very little similarity to Canada's. I'm Canadian, and am well aware that Canadian Medicare has it's share of problems, but to point to Canadian medicare's problems as to why Obama's sucks when they're so different just shows just how many haven't educated themself on the issue.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The Danny Williams fiasco has absolutely nothing to do with whether ObamaCare is good for the average American (in fact, it might even highlight the failings of American system... the rich get better treatment than the poor)

Please point to the argument here against socialized medicine because of Canada. In fact Canada's situation is rather irrelevant all considered. The Danny Williams article was merely another reason to laugh at the Canadian healthcare system.

OF COURSE all Americans would like free health care. Do you think we're that uninformed or smug? We would also like free higher education, free childcare and free hot dogs for that matter!

But America has several serious problems at present: huge national debt and growing, a huge deficit, badly needed tort reform and rampant medicare and medicaid fraud. Obama's plan will only worsen all of these. Not to mention lowering standards for the best healthcare system in the world.

 

[winnington]

You never answered my first question as to why it is unconstitutional/socialism for the government to pay for medical care, but not for education/transportation/etc.

Please point to the argument here against socialized medicine because of Canada. In fact Canada's situation is rather irrelevant all considered.

It seems like you immediately contradicted whether you wanted an answer, but I'll answer anyways. The argument against is the system in Canada is that waitlists can be quite long for surgeries deemed non-essential, even if you have the money to pay for it. One could argue, however, that the fact that everyone gets treated the same, whether they are rich or poor is in fact a good thing (incidently, Obamacare is a two-teired plan, with the people that can afford it still getting better care, if that's what you want). A second problem is that some of our best doctors go south of the border to work for higher salaries.

The Danny Williams article was merely another reason to laugh at the Canadian healthcare system.

You can laugh all that you want, but the fact is that Canadians have a longer life expectancy than Americans.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you're looking for the life expectancy the "best health care system" in the world provides you, you can find it just below that third world country south of Florida.

OF COURSE all Americans would like free health care. Do you think we're that uninformed or smug? We would also like free higher education, free childcare and free hot dogs for that matter!

I thought that was exactly what you didn't want?

But America has several serious problems at present: huge national debt and growing, a huge deficit, badly needed tort reform and rampant medicare and medicaid fraud. Obama's plan will only worsen all of these. Not to mention lowering standards for the best healthcare system in the world.

I would actually agree with you. With everything going on in the U.S. right now, this is a terrible time to try to convince the public of a change like this.

Obama's plan will only worsen all of these. Not to mention lowering standards for the best healthcare system in the world.

I know I'm contradicting myself after saying that any comparisons between Canadian medicare and Obamacare is a moot point, but just to show that a public option is not necessarily equal to spending more money, Canada spends less per capita on healthcare than America.

"In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714."

"Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending" (hmm, so who is the one with socialized healthcare?)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The only reason I bring it up is because unless you are some sort of financial guru that can crunch the numbers yourself, you sort of have to choose to believe whatever conservatives are saying (cost an arm and a leg) or what liberals are saying (save an arm and a leg)... and everyone seems to have their own agenda, so personally I wouldn't know which set of numbers to believe.

 

[bryand]

You never answered my first question as to why it is unconstitutional/socialism for the government to pay for medical care, but not for education/transportation/etc.

I never said free healthcare was unconstitutional. I do believe that Obama care is SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Nonetheless, infrastructure has to be government sponsored.

It seems like you immediately contradicted whether you wanted an answer, but I'll answer anyways. The argument against is the system in Canada is that waitlists can be quite long for surgeries deemed non-essential, even if you have the money to pay for it. One could argue, however, that the fact that everyone gets treated the same, whether they are rich or poor is in fact a good thing (incidently, Obamacare is a two-teired plan, with the people that can afford it still getting better care, if that's what you want). A second problem is that some of our best doctors go south of the border to work for higher salaries.

You missed my point completely. Canada's heathcare system is but one small example in the overall argument. Like I said, anything Canada is relatively irrelevant to the discussion.

You can laugh all that you want, but the fact is that Canadians have a longer life expectancy than Americans.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you're looking for the life expectancy the "best health care system" in the world provides you, you can find it just below that third world country south of Florida.

One question: Where do nearly all world leaders go for major medical proceedures? Canada? Cuba?

The only reason I bring it up is because unless you are some sort of financial guru that can crunch the numbers yourself, you sort of have to choose to believe whatever conservatives are saying (cost an arm and a leg) or what liberals are saying (save an arm and a leg)... and everyone seems to have their own agenda, so personally I wouldn't know which set of numbers to believe.

I happen to believe that socialized medicine would greatly add to our financial woes.

 

[skiny]

I've pretty much said my piece on this topic already but I would like to add that where the rich go to get immediate healthcare rather than waiting for it like the middle and lower classes are forced to is irrelevant. People with money are well known to jump the queue, travel and pay for medical treatment out of their own pockets. Its not a fault of any public healthcare system that some people can afford these luxuries and refuse to get in line and be treated as an equal. The public healthcare system is designed to ensure everyone gets equal treatment. Just as everyone is entitled to a fair trial, everyone is entitled to protection by our local police, everyone is entitled to be protected by our fire department and so on and so on. These things are paid for through our taxes to guarantee a quality of life thats expected in our country regardless of monetary status. The system isnt perfect but its better than forcing everyone to rely on private insurance telling us what treatments were allowed and reaming us out like the crooked auto insurance industry does in ridiculous premiums.

Just because a small handful of people are wealthy enough to roam around the planet looking for the express route to healthcare doesnt make the public system any less effective.

 

[bryand]

I've pretty much said my piece on this topic already but I would like to add that where the rich go to get immediate healthcare rather than waiting for it like the middle and lower classes are forced to is irrelevant. People with money are well known to jump the queue, travel and pay for medical treatment out of their own pockets. Its not a fault of any public healthcare system that some people can afford these luxuries and refuse to get in line and be treated as an equal. The public healthcare system is designed to ensure everyone gets equal treatment. Just as everyone is entitled to a fair trial, everyone is entitled to protection by our local police, everyone is entitled to be protected by our fire department and so on and so on. These things are paid for through our taxes to guarantee a quality of life thats expected in our country regardless of monetary status. The system isnt perfect but its better than forcing everyone to rely on private insurance telling us what treatments were allowed and reaming us out like the crooked auto insurance industry does in ridiculous premiums.

Just because a small handful of people are wealthy enough to roam around the planet looking for the express route to healthcare doesnt make the public system any less effective.

Skiny, my point was directly related to the debate regarding where to get the best healthcare. Wouldn't the best Canadian doctors practice in Canada rather than moving to the US if Canada didn't have socialized medicine? Of course some move to the US merely because earnings are higher. But I believe some move because they can practice without Canada's govenmental constraints.

I have to disagree with your last statement. If Canada's system was effective, Canadians wouldn't be roaming to find quicker (and better) healthcare.

 

[skiny]

Rich people go to other countries for healthcare because they can afford it. And personally I say go right ahead. Id rather see them do that than be able to pay to get ahead of poor people here who are just as deserving of healthcare as anyone else.

Im glad I live in a country where how much money you have doesnt determine the speed in which you get treatment.

Im not sure what you mean by better healthcare unless youre suggesting that the US is more technologically advanced than Canada but Im really more interested in these governmental constraints. Are you suggesting the Canadian government tells doctors how to treat patients? The only thing the Canadian government tells our doctors is that everyone is treated equally and thats a constraint Im glad they impose.

I used to date a nurse in the US. I remember her telling me that some nurses were moving to Canada because they got cheaper healthcare. Its a sad day when you cant afford to get treatment in the very hospital you work at.

 

[bryand]

Im not sure what you mean by better healthcare unless youre suggesting that the US is more technologically advanced than Canada but Im really more interested in these governmental constraints. Are you suggesting the Canadian government tells doctors how to treat patients? The only thing the Canadian government tells our doctors is that everyone is treated equally and thats a constraint Im glad they impose.

I'm certainly not an expert on the Canadian system. In fact earlier I called it socialized medicine when actually it is socialized health insurance. But logic tells me governmental constraints cause the long waiting periods for services. Unless there simply aren't enough doctors per capita.

 

[skiny]

I'm certainly not an expert on the Canadian system. In fact earlier I called it socialized medicine when actually it is socialized health insurance. But logic tells me governmental constraints cause the long waiting periods for services. Unless there simply aren't enough doctors per capita.

The doctor shortage is one of the problems. I also noted quite some time ago in this debate that one of the major problems with public health care in my opinion is that it's too easily abused. And I'm not talking about doctors over charging or stealing from the system. I'm talking about everyone with a sniffle running off to the emergency rooms and doctors offices clogging up the system and costing a fortune when a trip to the pharmacy would probably do just as well. That and the fact that the government wasts billions of dollars on stupidity and then tells us we can't afford necessities. Of course none of this is new.

 

[footdr]

CBO Scores Final Bill......

Unfortunately their cost estimates don't include the additional expense of administering the changes by the IRS, increased staff, etc. and the costs of implementing the provisions by non-government businesses.

It also is a guesstimate, as if you read the Bill there are no specifics on the exact amount of premiums on "exchange products" and doesn't guarantee your premiums will be lower than they are now and that they wont increase or that are taxes won't increase if their estimates are off, which they historically are. The Bill says alot of nothing when it comes to specifics.

Nor does it include costly implimentation of the Electronic Records Information provision. Since I have a degree in Health Information Management I warn all of you that your medical information will not be safe and the Fed. Gov. will have access to it as will anyone that treats you, including your Pyschiatrist which might be treating you for depression, ADD, ADHD, alcohol or drug abuses.

Electronic records can be a good thing if implemented correctly, I don't trust this Administration to do that. Information that should be available electronic to all providers who you choose to see should only include, labs, x-ray, MRI, Ultrasound tests, etc. and finally prescribed medications. The physicians and hospital notes should not be made available automatically and should still require your personal authorization to release this information.

The cost of implementing this will be great both to the Gov. and the Providers and Hospitals who will have to purchase equipment and software. Many physicians already have computer software to manage their offices and document the patient's visit, if their system is not compatible with the mandated software it will be even more costly, these costs will be passed on.,

It seems to me that the only increase in "jobs" will be Federal. Physicians will not be able to afford additional staff as their profits have been decreasing for quite sometime with the onset of PPO's, Managed Care and poor Medicaid and Medicare reibursement.

Reform of Insurance was a must for quite sometime. I agree with those provisions but it will require that everyone have coverage to make it doable.

Health Insurance Reforms could have taken effect almost immediately, we don't need the rest of the mess in this Bill that increases the scope and cost of Social Entitlements to a small percentage of Americans. Programs that have been mismanaged and are sure to bankrupt this Country.

 

[clj7221]

As a Republican I don't see this as the worst thing in the world. It may be pretty good!You would have to make 250.000 yearly to get taxed for this. Also, when we bought health insurance it was only 450 a month 8 years ago. Now as a small family we are paying 1,800 monthly!! We do not have any conditions or pre- existing conditions and hardly go to the Doctor but this is what we pay monthly. If Obama can get it so we have choices of different insurance companies since he will put them in competiton with each other, prices will go down! I also like the fact that EVERYONE must have Health Care!! I know so many people who do not have health care but can afford it. They say oh I am young and healthy I dont need it.

But it is us who ends up paying for it when they have an emergency trip the hospital. Thats why our rates are so sky high!! People who think they are G-d and don't need health insurance,People who can't afford health insurance and illegal aliens is why we have to pay 1,800 for ours. I never heard Rush or Hannity say one word about how much we have to pay for health care. They don't care they make millions so it is not an issue for them. They never mentioned not once that they should make sure prices go down. They are concerned because there millions they make will be taxed a little more now. AS I stated I am a Republican but I think for myself not what my party thinks and so far I never heard my party give a crap about the enormous cost we pay for health insurance.