ladygaga vs Vavada Casino

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Good afternoon. We discussed all the details with the representative of the site and provided all the evidence and a letter from the provider.
Evidences of what? Of card-counting? It's not a big deal. If you asked me directly I would admit that card-counting was in use. No need to ask Evolution. The fact is that card-counting is not a "strategy for illegal profit" and it's not on a "forbidden list" directly on your T&C. I repeat again you have intentionally vague rules to accuse players in whatever on your deсission under cover of Curasao license - easy money. Evolution report doesn't put you on a legal side in this case. Anyway even under Curasao jurisdiction possible to lawsuit unfair casinos.

Totally agree with posts above, In my case they seized winnings from other games and deposit yet I lost at blackjack. No matter - if you won you are a cheater. They just don't pay anything to anyone.

I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.
Your PAB said no such thing. You complained that the casino had confiscated your money unfairly because the Terms made no specific reference to card counting. The casino provided good evidence that you had been tagged as an advantage player and the Terms prohibit such play. On these grounds the PAB failed. End of story as far as I'm concerned.
 

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
The casino provided good evidence that you had been tagged as an advantage player and the Terms prohibit such play.
It's a pity you don't follow my logic. There is no such prohibation on Vavada T&C. Otherwise you just say white is black. No sense to repeat once again. Unfortunately I was advised wrong site for arbitration. I think you shall update Casinomeister's philosophy page.
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
Any casino that bans someone for using Martingale is idiotic as it don't work, sooner or later the player will lose any short term profits they have gained from a run of bad "math"

As for card counting, I doubt any player can get any meaningful advantage from that either due to they use 50%+ penetration on live games which makes it near impossible to get any kind of real edge, which by your own admission of losing 1500 on BJ kinda proves my point.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... There is no such prohibation on Vavada T&C. ...
But there is:
16. FRAUD, CHEATING, COLLUSION AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
16.1. The following activities are forbidden and constitute a material breach of the Terms of Use:
...
16.1.6. using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering.
...
16.5. The Company has the right at any time without prior notice to refuse access to the Website or to suspend access to the Personal Account if we suspect fraudulent activity. We have no obligation to return or compensate you for the funds deposited to your account at that time. We may report to the proper authorities and you are under obligation to cooperate with the Company in the investigation process.
...
If you choose to see that as not being applicable to your advantage play techniques that's your business but they did, their provider did, and I don't disagree. Hence the outcome of your PAB.

Unfortunately I was advised wrong site for arbitration.
Sorry you feel that way but I remind you that it cost you nothing but a few days time. Somehow I think you'll recover.

Given the situation and the outcome I've changed the thread title to level the field.

Any casino that bans someone for using Martingale is idiotic ....
That may well be but the point is that the Terms warn against using advantage play aka "special gaming strategies". If you accept those Terms and then break them you are likely to end up suffering the consequences. The moral of that story is "if you don't like the Terms then don't play there". Moaning about the Terms after you've accepted and broken them is just as idiotic as the Terms may have been in the first place.
 
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Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
I don't disagree with you there max, but "special gaming strategies" is a tad vague and could be anything, who do they think they are the UKGC its similar to how they would word stuff LOL

If a player loses 2 or 3 hands in a row then raises bet and wins then goes back to original bet is that considered special? I often play like that and probably most players do but it don't mean your card counting or using martingale. Its effectively a unfair term and a player couldn't really play hunches with fear of being branded one. Crazy really. Just seems like one of those terms thats there as a get out plan for any winning player.

Like i said I agree with what you say but just because its in their terms dont always mean it could be upheld in law for example. Many contracts and terms that were considered unfair have been void in UK courts for example, not that it applies to this case obviously.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Hello! I am a representative of casino Vavada. I would like to inform you that the player’s actions were illegal within framework of the game on our website, that was reported to us by provider Evolution Gaming, in which it was reported and supported with proofs that the player used card counting method.

We are ready to provide all evidence of violations of the rules to the site administrator.

Your account is in the moderated member section. You need to provide us with a work related email address - this was made clear when you signed up in the forum. Casino reps are not permitted to use gmail accounts. Please provide this to us. Thank you.

I don't disagree with you there max, but "special gaming strategies" is a tad vague and could be anything, who do they think they are the UKGC its similar to how they would word stuff LOL

If a player loses 2 or 3 hands in a row then raises bet and wins then goes back to original bet is that considered special? I often play like that and probably most players do but it don't mean your card counting or using martingale. Its effectively a unfair term and a player couldn't really play hunches with fear of being branded one. Crazy really. Just seems like one of those terms thats there as a get out plan for any winning player.

Like i said I agree with what you say but just because its in their terms dont always mean it could be upheld in law for example. Many contracts and terms that were considered unfair have been void in UK courts for example, not that it applies to this case obviously.
We can talk all day until the cows come home on what are fair or unfair terms. The thing is these terms are quite standard, the software provider and the casino claim the player violated these terms, and that's it.

If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.
 

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.
What to do if I agree to them but don't treat "card counting" as "strategy for illegal profit"? And noone in the world does except unfair casinos and Max who equalizes "card counting" to "strategy for illegal profit".
 

abuyang

Full Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Location
Lanna, Thailand
Do you want to say that they use fake slots at Vavada? Otherwise, how can they rig the licensed slots’ RTP?
Vavada always been a gray-zone casino with rigged slots RTP and other "legal strategies" of making business. Unfortunately I found out this too late. This just a revenge I suddenly got top combination at slots. Nothing more. You either loose on rigged slots with RTP down to 80-85% or they just steel your money. At certain point I wanted to stop playing and quit forever but they told me I must wager the bonus otherwise I loose everything. So I had to bet over 35k USD on slots to wager the bonus and occasionally won. And they become angry with that. All those fairy tales about Evolution like you colleague said is a bullshit.

This is not the end from my side anyway.
 

VAVADA

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Location
Cyprus
Evidences of what? Of card-counting? It's not a big deal. If you asked me directly I would admit that card-counting was in use. No need to ask Evolution. The fact is that card-counting is not a "strategy for illegal profit" and it's not on a "forbidden list" directly on your T&C. I repeat again you have intentionally vague rules to accuse players in whatever on your deсission under cover of Curasao license - easy money. Evolution report doesn't put you on a legal side in this case. Anyway even under Curasao jurisdiction possible to lawsuit unfair casinos.

Totally agree with posts above, In my case they seized winnings from other games and deposit yet I lost at blackjack. No matter - if you won you are a cheater. They just don't pay anything to anyone.

I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.
Hello! I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes. Card counting action was found unfair by the provider and that's was communicated to us.
 

VAVADA

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Location
Cyprus
Your account is in the moderated member section. You need to provide us with a work related email address - this was made clear when you signed up in the forum. Casino reps are not permitted to use gmail accounts. Please provide this to us. Thank you.


We can talk all day until the cows come home on what are fair or unfair terms. The thing is these terms are quite standard, the software provider and the casino claim the player violated these terms, and that's it.

If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.
Hello. We've provided our official mail address [email protected] in the dialog with the moderator. We made the whole conversation from this address.
 

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Hello! I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes. Card counting action was found unfair by the provider and that's was communicated to us.
In what relation Evolution to my funds in vavada casino. No matter what they reported you must follow your own T&C and you but not the Evolution takes decision. If you don't want to see card counters in your casino just put it clearly on the T&C.. Evolution ordered you to steel my money? Be responsible for your actions, Yet again - no winnings were get from "unfair" technics. You seized FAIR winnings achieved on slots and deposit, In what relation this is to Evolution report?
 

syntynyt

kuollut
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Location
~
What a joke Evilution is. Offering a flawed game and punishing those intelligent enough that are taking the challenge to dissect the game, in a LIVE environment. The unfair advantage wasnt even an advantage if the player LOST. The only reason for the report was to stir the shit between the player and casino and they succeeded, in an attempt to protect their client from the 'evils' of one smart customer. Dreadful company. If you offer a flawed-by-design game surely you take countermeasures by for example moving the player to another table randomly after X number of hands or change the decks more often, its a live game as it happens in the landbased casino.
I will keep this thread in mind next time i decide to donate money thru spinning to BTG and other sellout companies that joined ship with this conglomerate of questionable ethics laughable company.
You should be paid everything 100%. And never spend a cent again with: netent, redtiger, btg all part of evolution shady network. Good luck!
 

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
What a joke Evilution is.
Thanks a lot for your support! I really appreciate!

Things became even more funny as I was just noticed by vavada themselfs, that firstly accusations was in the-called OPPOSITE BETTING. They told Evolution reported I did OPPOSITE BETTING at blackjack! Whatever that means. Anyone can explain what is that? Strrange thing Casinomeister had this report but never mentioned such kind of betting just impossible at blackjack. It really seems a set of automated reports issued by Evolution to let casinos "stir the shit". They just picked wrong one.

Check this llink (in Russain) where they mentioned that:

C нами связался провайдер Evolution Gaming, сообщив об использовании тактики противоположных ставок, в свою очередь мы запросили верификацию и самостоятельно проверили вашу игру
После тщательной проверки всей имеющейся информации было принято решение заблокировать ваш аккаунт и аннулировать выигрыш на основании пунктов правил 16.1.6 и 16.5.
google translate:
The provider Evolution Gaming contacted us, informing about the use of the tactics of opposite bets, in turn, we requested verification and independently checked your game
After carefully checking all the available information, it was decided to block your account and cancel your winnings on the basis of clauses 16.1.6 and 16.5.
"Carefully checking" took less than 2 hours for vavada. Yet another casino at the same time took really "carefull checking" of my gameplay lasted for 2 WEEKS and didn't find anything irregular. Someone telling the lie here...
 
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ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
You should be paid everything 100%
Happy New Year!

So intermediate outcome:
Money had been stolen under false accusations came from Evolution (aka "game provider"). They accused me in the so-called "opposite betting" while I played the Blackjack. It's technically impossible to do such kind of bets at Blackjack. So this is either a mistake or false report from Evolution or this report was faked by vavada.
I don't have copy of this report so I cant comment on that and my right to defense thus violated. Casinomeister had the copy but for some reason ignored this obvious fact and just didn't want to get into the problem. Moreover they confirmed casino's right to steel the money under false or fake accusations from Evolution.
I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes.
These are false accusations and can easily be proved as "opposite betting" not technically possible at blackjack until you clearly explain what is that. Maybe I'm missing something.

That's exactly ADR part of work but for some reason they didn't want to do their job properly. Max, would you be so kind to comment on "opposite betting at blackjack" please?
 

ladygaga

Troll
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Some update on the case.

Finally casino changed their version again stating that I was 'improperly using bonus funds' failed to provide exact term of T&C that was violated. Probably I had to 'guess' that. You can follow this on casinoguru.

So firstly they accused me in 'opposite betting'.
Later switched to 'card counting'.
Later switched to 'bonus rules violation'.
The case is not related to card-counting or game provider anymore. LOL.
What Bryan told me was:
'It's not the casino that made this decision, but the software provider. So if anything - you would have a claim against them, not the casino. The casino management just upheld the decision made by the software provider. So if anything, you should take your issue up with them.'
But in 3 months we came to a statement that
'It has nothing to do with counting cards'.
I'm really puzzled here. What I must say to Evolution then? It looks just as a bad comedy.

I also want to thank Max once again for ignoring my question on 'opposite betting' at blackjack and calling me an 'idiotic player'. I really appreciate that!
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
I absolutely did not call you an "idiotic player". What I did say was:
Moaning about the Terms after you've accepted and broken them is just as idiotic as the Terms may have been in the first place.

Twisting shit around to suit your purposes seems to be your general MO and that's what trolls do. Adios and happy trails to you.
 

SpinMeUp

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Location
Germany
By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.

Quote: "In Casino Guru, we do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds as it can be easily detected, and the advantage a player can gain by its use is negligeable[...]"
and:
"In case the casino had decided to confiscate your balance based on the existing findings, we would consider that unfair."

Which is the only right decision to make here in my opinion.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.

Quote: "In Casino Guru, we do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds as it can be easily detected, and the advantage a player can gain by its use is negligeable[...]"
and:
"In case the casino had decided to confiscate your balance based on the existing findings, we would consider that unfair."

Which is the only right decision to make here in my opinion.
Um - no it wasn't resolved there. Read the dates. That casino guru site was dealing with this last December. Nothing was resolved. Then the player came here, and we tried to do our best to assist. But this guy drank some troll juice, got obnoxious, and was bootified.

We told him it was the software provider he was having an issue about - not the casino. If the software provider negates a player's card game, there is not much the "casino" can do about it. You can challenge the software provider, but this is usually done via the licensing jurisdiction. We were explaining this to the guy (ladygaga? c'mon, dude) but read this thread and you can see what happened.
 

ladyhawke

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Location
Here, There, Everywhere.
By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.
Actually, no it wasn't, so not sure where you obtained that information from.

If you read the entire Casino Guru complaint thread, they did indeed state: " We do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds..."

BUT... as further information came to light, Casino Guru then states: Because of all written above, we are rejecting this complaint.

So their final decision was: Unjustified Complaint. Rejected.

 
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