LadyDream.com - how slots work

[bAdSmoker]

Well, I stumbled across this place earlier today and played some of there games, but what i would really like to know is if anyone has heard of this casino or know if it's legit. If it is legit then im saying goodbye to Microgaming casinos.

 

[Simmo!]

Not one i'd heard of. Its administered by Xhttp://www.goldbetting.com/ based out of St Kitts & Nevis.

There's a lack of "About" info on the site, the Whois info is clear however. The website seems professional but with so little info on the site about the operation, no info immediately visible on auditing or regulation, its difficult to evaluate objectively. The name itself is a tad unusual for a casino and it doesn't have Google PR.

There have been several threads relating to it and Gold Betting here in the past. Do a SEARCH for "ladydream" on Meister.

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[jetset]

Run - very far and very fast!

This outfit and its sisters has been the subject of many heated posts here and at the other site.

Last time I looked the software was Wager 21.

Here are some other *stellar* operations from this group!!

Lady Dream

Goldbetting

Lucky Dog Sports

Players Vegas

Largo (dead Jan 2005)

 

[paul02085]

Well, I stumbled across this place earlier today and played some of there games, but what i would really like to know is if anyone has heard of this casino or know if it's legit. If it is legit then im saying goodbye to Microgaming casinos.

I think meister has this outfit on probation now, but they have a shady background. Also, DO NOT BE FOOLED by the payouts on their play money games. They are NOTHING like the real money games.

I remember their slots used to be exact replicas of IGT slots but I see they are now changed so IGT must have gotten on their a..
(even now some of the graphics look like IGT slots)

In a nutshell, i would proceed with extreme caution.

PS- Its too bad they arent more legit as their slots are very appealing.

 

[dominique]

Ladydream - wasn't that the one with the funky BJ screenshot? I forgot what awful thing it showed, but it sure was malfunctioning software.

This was a few years ago. Anyone remember? Bryan?

 

[realwtfsup]

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

Has a rogue page in Casinomeisters rogue section. Might want to proceed with caution.

 

[bAdSmoker]

Damnit! I figured it was to good to be true.

 

[winbig]

Damnit! I figured it was to good to be true.

I think the easiest way to tell if it is too good is to check out their "contact" page. If they have no mention of telephone numbers, run the hell away!!! (this one only has email for contact)

ps: Just for shits & giggles, I checked out their "help" page....and lookie here:

Do the Free games payout the same as real games?

Our Free Games are programmed for FUN and give higher payouts.

What kind of BS is that? Is this software rogued, or just the casino itself?

 

[jetset]

There are 54 items regarding this dump in the Rogue Section here alone if you use "Lady Dream Casino" as the search target on Bryan's search facility. That should give you some idea of the past behaviour of this outfit.

 

[winbig]

I know it's been discussed in the past regarding free play vs real play and how the payouts are. I just think it's totally unethical for them to do this, and hide it (3 layers deep) in the "help" section of their website that they do let you win more.....just to entice you to deposit. IMO what's to stop them from having a "win" or "lose" switch that's also been discussed in the past. I definately would never play at a casino that has this software.

 

[amatrine]

I tried out there free bonus this morning and could not get thier casino to work on my computer. No matter what I tried it would freeze up after a couple spins, and the website would not start again without restarting my computer. I finaly gave up, bonus still sitting in the account.

Amatrine

 

[The Dude]

Hi all,

Just trying to slowing crawl out of the Xmas lull - but it ain't happening yet; it's like hibernation

Anyway, these guys have a history which has been well documented on this site. There were a number of non-payment issues and some rather unorthodox business practices at work. But in September this year, I sat down with their new marketing director who went over with me issues from the past as well as current issues. This is documented here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

He is also a member of the forum and can be contacted here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

The Ladydream page needs to be updated obviously. That is a section from the old Casinomeister site

But then on another note, I wasn't aware of the "play for fun" being programmed differently from the "play for real". Even though it's mentioned in their T&Cs, that ain't a good thing.

 

[dominique]

I now remember where I saw that screenshot that I think was ladydream - in the inner sanctum of GPWA.

Probably is still there but I can't access it anymore. It demonstrated a software bug in BJ.

Maybe someone from GPwA can retrieve it for us.

 

[amatrine]

Oh my gosh, lady dream turned into lady nightmare.
I went back today, and it was running fine.
I played for a good 45 minuits, then on the racing game, It gave me three wilds! I held all three buttons, and guess what, server error, It disconted from the server. I went back into the game, and the orginal bet back in my balance, no win. I guess they would blame this on techinal error? Funny it only happened when I hit the top jackpot. The only reason Im not flaming mad it was a free bonus, but I will never pay to play there after that.
Its too bad because the games were really fun, if they were fair.

Amatrine

 

[FiftyPercent]

CashWave.com / LadyDream Response

Hello Group,

Thank you for your interest in our casinos. I believe there is a lot of ground to cover, so please allow me to begin.

CashWave.com has taken over the Advertising, Affiliate Marketing, and Relations for the following casinos as of April 05.

www.LadyDream.com
www.GoldBetting.com
www.DiamondGal.com
www.GrandCasinoRoyale.com
www.CasinoLuckyDog.com
www.PlayersVegas.com

With the help of the Meister, I became aware of some things that needed attention based upon past communications and outstanding issues that had not been properly resolved. With most of these issues dating back to 2003, I have relied on the Meister to gather information, build a solid bridge of communication, and enable me to address those items with the Casino Management Team at that time.

Since the official launch of CashWave.com in September 05, CashWave.com is the liaison for the aforementioned Casinos. The launch of CashWave.com has been, and continues to be a successful, ethical, and responsive Affiliate Program. CashWave.com values our Affiliates and helps them build successful marketing programs. We have multiple services that can not be found in other affiliate programs, but, most importantly, our Affiliate and Player satisfaction/retention are one of the highest in our industry, based upon the information that we have shared and obtained from various well known and established casino affiliate programs.

Now, that obviously does not preclude us from having new issues that arise from time to time. However, I can assure you that we deal with any arising issue from a practical and fact based position. I have done that with the Meister, and other forums, every time there has been a topic for concern or interest.

Based upon the recent posts there appears to be a couple of items that need to be addressed.

The first matter is from post: winbig72 regarding Free Play vs. Real Play

Our casinos do offer Free Play. In fact that is one of the leading marketing tools we have. You can go to any one of our casinos and begin playing our games for free, instantly. No downloading, no entering in your email address.nothing. Just click and play. We have tens of thousands of people playing our games for free at any given time. They are high quality, attractive and fun.

The Free Play games are designed for that reason. Fun! They are, I play them all the time with my family and friends. The games are high quality flash on these Free Games and it is fun to win, often. That is the fact portion of my explanation.

For the practical portion, our Free Games are not the same odds as our Real Games based upon security reasons. You will find that our security measures are aggressive and better than most. We need them to be. We are not a small mom and pop company, yet we are not the large conglomerate either. We have major investments in all security and counter fraud initiatives. Because slots are not actually random number generated games, slots are subject to pattern cracking. We have seen this in the past, it does exist. And with the proliferation of software cracks and programs readily available, we have taken measures as part of our across the board policy to proactively secure our business, our Affiliates and our Players by keeping them protected to the best of our ability.

Our Players end up staying with us for a very long time. We have remarkable player retention, which is partly because of the quality of our casinos, and partly because of the heavy bonuses we give out to our existing players. In addition to getting Birthday, Holiday, and randomly requested bonuses, we take care of our honest, long term players like no other casino can.

We disclose the difference between Free Play and Real Play in our Ts & Cs. We are an ethical business that offers a great program for Affiliates and quality games for Users.

Our Affiliates enjoy the benefits of having a program like this because we take care of their players and keep them playing.

Unlike many casinos, you can play our Real Games for $0.05 all day long to try them out, for real. A deposit of $20 is required.

Our games may not be for everyone. There are many casinos to choose from. We understand and support each players decision to play where they want to. We try to offer the best experience possible for the players that do decide to play our games. We dont offer poker or sports betting. We do offer high quality slots, table games, and soon BINGO.

We respect the opinions of everyone, and understand that our response to the group may not completely satisfy everyones feelings on how a casino business should be run. I encourage you to direct any questions that you may have to me directly at [email protected] or continue to your post on the Casinomeisters forum. I will be happy to respond.

Thank you all for your time;

FiftyPercent aka Todd and the CashWave.com Team.

 

[spearmaster]

Because slots are not actually random number generated games, slots are subject to pattern cracking.

That says it all for me. Though I appreciate the fact that you came in here to explain - this simple fact is just an obtuse way of saying that your slots are RIGGED.

 

[FiftyPercent]

LadyDream is a Great Casino!

Hello,

It is nice to see you fast response, thank you. Your opinions are yours, we respect that. If you do not favor our products it is best to move onward, rather than arbitrarily assess our company.

It is important for you to note that ALL online and landbased slots are based on programed payout results rather than random number generation.

Online, only table games are based on random generated odds.

Therefore your assesment of our products being rigged must be the same for every casino slot machine, land based or online.

Our products and services are all above board. We take pride in delivering the best products we can and servicing the honest folks who choose us as there casino of choice.

Best,

Todd

 

[FiftyPercent]

Hello / LadyDream

Hello BadSmoker,

Thank you for your post. We are indeed a very legitimate casino and have nearly more than 2000 existing affiliates. We offer a 50% rev share, negative balances are not carried over, and our casinos convert very well.

All of our programs are managed through www.CashWave.com. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask, [email protected].

 

[Simmo!]

It is important for you to note that ALL online and landbased slots are based on programed payout results rather than random number generation.

Online, only table games are based on random generated odds.

I think thats a fair point actually. Its well known that "offline" and "online" slots are weighted, therefore the true randomness is not present. Its that old "what is random" argument again Lets not go there again again again....

For the practical portion, our Free Games are not the same odds as our Real Games based upon security reasons

Care to expand on this one? I'd be interested to know why not.

 

[jetset]

That says it all for me. Though I appreciate the fact that you came in here to explain - this simple fact is just an obtuse way of saying that your slots are RIGGED.

Given the long and frustrating history of these casinos, I have a few questions, too:

1) Is the Wager 21 software still in use? If not what has replaced it and when?

2) Your description of the CashWave management responsibilities is confined to "Advertising, Affiliate Marketing, and Relations" the latter presumably being CRM. This suggests that these duties have been outsourced to your company. That being the case, who handles the actual casinos operational side, who are the owners, and who handles the financial and accounting responsibilities?

3) In what jurisdiction is the group now licensed?

Many of us can still vividly remember the at times infuriating antics of the previous management here and his laptop activities, and you will therefore understand that there exists some cynicism.

The way to dispel this and make a success of the group is obviously to perform in an ethical and efficient manner that answers the needs of the players who constitute your business now and in the future.

Spearmaster is also a widely respected and knowledgeable industry insider who's opinion always gets close attention. That suggests that you might have to work harder at convincing the players that your software is all you claim it to be.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Ladydream Slots

If your slots are preprogrammed to a pattern it is good that you admit it!

To say that ALL online slots are so is a contentious issue. Microgaming, for example, have gone to great lengths to assure players that games, including slots, are completeley random. These businesses may consider your global statement as libel, as it could seriously damage confidence in their honesty and reliability.

There is nothing wrong with cyclic slots if this fact is stated, and no pretence is made to fool the players it is random. In such case, running free games on the same cyclic programme is asking for it from us lot in the UK who play Fruit Machines. Our Fruits are so rigged that the patterns are pretty obvious. Players unfamiliar with the UK should note that this means that the slots can be programmed so as to offer a totally ZERO chance of a certain outcome based on what has happened before (usually a recent Jackpot or cyclic "streak"). Players here though are generally uncomfortable with anything that is not random due to issues in the past, and even in the present when they are totally wiped out by incredible bad runs in so called random games. Cyclic slots should allow them to be programmed such that such long spells of bad luck do not happen. If any players DO experience long losing "wipe outs" on non-random slots, this shows an intent to clean out players rather than give them a long, but controlled, period of entertainment. I thus do not expect to see posts like "I deposited $1000 at Ladydream and was wiped out in 20 mins on their slots". I would expect that the software would NOT deliberately be set such that winning players are purposely given losing slot cycles in preference to winning ones, or that cycles are not given to ensure all players taking bonuses can never win with them.

Incidentally, you are still exposed to pattern cracking in the long term if indeed you can play at 5c, crack the pattern, and bet at $5!! UK Fruit Machine manufacturers are paying dearly for their practice of rigging game patterns, although it is the operators who take the financial consequences. You really would be better off using altered paytables and random reel stepping, and employ a mathematician to double check the paytables before launch!

 

[FiftyPercent]

Q & A / Cheers!

Hello Friends,

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. I am happy to provide additional information as it pertains to the welfare of players, affiliates and good business. Here is what I am not looking for; long and arduous strings of conversations defending our business decisions and Corp infrastructure. This only drains positive time/resources, which I am not suggestion that we are going down that road, however, I feel that jetset may be in the beginning stages of an inquisition

At any rate, here are the answers to your questions, and thank you for taking the interest.

Free Games are not the same odds, by providing the free games to anyone who wants to play without any verification or policing from us, puts us at risk for potential risk from software pirates and hacks, we have seen this happen with our games in past. In addition, we liked the marketing approach our free games have with the winning feel. As I have mentioned before, we have thousands of users who love playing our games for free simply because it is fun.

Now to move on to jetsets questions and reasonable cynicism.:notworthy Yes, I understand that past communications were poor and amateur at best, however this operation is different. I have been asked to manage many aspects of the operations via my company, WebMedia1 Ltd. WebMedia1 Ltd is an ad agency that works with various companies and industries in promoting online services and launching affiliate campaigns.

My background is in the search space, which I spent several years in charge of large search companys global business development division.

MGM Media, who has purchased all the software rights from Wager21, has asked me to help them with their image, marketing, affiliate relations, industry relations and strategic alliances. They still run the day to day casino operations regarding player support, security, payment, software upgrades, programming and network infrastructure. We work closely together and I have no problem stepping in to get fast resolution to any issues that arise.

The Casinos are all licensed Curacao.

Understanding that trust is earned, and respect should be granted, they are both bidirectional avenues.

Once again, I thank the group for its time and interest.

 

[spearmaster]

It is important for you to note that ALL online and landbased slots are based on programed payout results rather than random number generation.

Your source of this information, I might ask?

*ALL* slots must use a random number generator. The fact that payout tables can be modified or programmed has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the random number generator. Any game or device where the results are predetermined would likely be in violation of the law in any jurisdiction in the world.

I hereby refer you to someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am in the world of gambling - my friend, the Wizard of Odds.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Todd - please do me a favor - learn what you're talking about before you rush to judge others. Your experience in the search space won't earn you any credits here.

 

[silcnlayc]

"play for fun" being programmed differently from the "play for real".

Ok, help me here people.

I thought ALL casinos were setup differently this way from the very first time I played at one many years ago. I, myself, never expected the same play for fun as I did for real. I don't know why I thought this, I guess it was just MY common sense telling me this?

When I joined Intercasino, I noticed the play for fun was "offline" which just re-confirmed this "feeling, knowledge".

What I am asking is this,was I supposed to think differently then, that "play mode" and "real mode" were supposed to be the same?

Ok, here goes....THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL! I can't even wrap my thought around that one...that they would be set up the same...I, myself would not set them up the same if I owned a casino, for , fun play is just that, FUN and who cares what the payback is in this mode??

 

[vinylweatherman]

Point

It depends on the game. Clearly if a different and higher paytable is used in fun mode it would be obviously more fun. However, having fun mode BJ repeatedly letting the player win, and real mode holding the house edge would cause the integrity of the software and it's RNG into question. The argument would be that if the software could be rigged to play better than the norm for fun, it could be argued that it could be rigged to cheat at cards in real mode, such as the saga at the "second chance" alleged to be given to the dealer at BJ if the player has won "too much". (Second chance being where if the card is a bust for the dealer, the software discards the result as unacceptable and requests another random number and accepts it whatever - this artificially boosts the house edge considerably, but many players will not spot the deception).
Microgaming has no difference between fun and real modes due to the games being played on MG servers. Crypto fun offline relies on the players own PC and its internal RNG, and they will always be the one to win the rapid fire jackpots.
The problem is really one of addict psychology. they will win big in fun, and be tempted to play for real. They will NEVER experience the degree of winning they had in fun if the fun mode is enhanced. They could be sucked into chasing the dream of getting the winning experience for real, and logic will fly out the window. If fun games are deliberately enhanced, they must be CLEARLY different from the real thing, not a disclaimer buried in the T & C for playing for real money, something like:-

Hello, you are playing for FUN!!!
Please note the games have been programmed to give a continually enhanced level of payouts, which you will NOT experience if you choose to play with real money.

This should appear each time fun mode is accessed.

 

[FiftyPercent]

Your source of this information, I might ask?

*ALL* slots must use a random number generator. The fact that payout tables can be modified or programmed has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the random number generator. Any game or device where the results are predetermined would likely be in violation of the law in any jurisdiction in the world.

I hereby refer you to someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am in the world of gambling - my friend, the Wizard of Odds.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Todd - please do me a favor - learn what you're talking about before you rush to judge others. Your experience in the search space won't earn you any credits here.

Judging? Hmmm, I wasn't judging at all. Judging, in my opinion would be someone who arbitrarily assumes a casino is "rigged".

My statements are a matter of fact. I offer you the same advice to you that you have given me. When you peel the layer of the onion you will find that all slots are pattern based and not random.

Your "wizard" appears to make some sense however contradicts the fact that by the mere introduction of patterns or modified programs to any slots negates the random number generation.

This is not a debate, just fact.

Moreover, I am not looking for an argument; I am merely defending our casinos ethics and practices against your statement of a "rigged" casino.

Thank you for your diligence regarding this matter.

 

[spearmaster]

"My" Wizard?

LMFAO.

The Wizard of Odds is not only a licensed actuary, but an associate professor at UNLV, and recognized by the online and offline gambling worlds as an expert in his field.

You clearly do not have the experience in gambling that he does, nor the knowledge - so please, spare us from your uninformed "facts". Either you are right, or the Wizard is right.

Frankly, I know who I would trust.

 

[winbig]

Again, the point

As Vinyl and everyone else here is trying to point out, you should be up front with people and let them know that PLAY MODE IS NOT THE SAME AS REAL MODE and of course they're going to win more. Instead, you hide it. Unless they look in an obscure place on your website (2 links deep starting with the "help" link on the main page), they will not know any different. Instead, someone that doesn't know any better will think "Wow, these slots are loose, let me deposit!!! I can't lose!!". This, in my eyes, is very unethical. Again, as Vinyl pointed out, there should be some sort of disclaimer. Not everyone reads through the entire website, and of course this will be missed most all of the time.

To sum it all up, I agree with the majority that non-RNG slots can be, and indeed are "fixed".

 

[FiftyPercent]

Thank You!

Ok Group,

Thank you for your time and energy on all of this. There is certainly some fine, intelligent, and mildly friendly folks here, which I have enjoyed communicating with.

If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. I can be found at [email protected], and at most of the upcoming industry events. Please stop buy at the CashWave booth to say hello or just give me your opinions/information on ways to improve.:notworthy

Please accept my apologies if any of my forum communications appeared to be anything but factual and mild mannered. Sometimes it is difficult to express points of view via these forums, especially when you are one of the newbies to the group.

 

[GrandMaster]

I think the Wizard is "only" an adjunct professor, but it does not change the fact the he is one of the top experts on the mathematical aspects of gambling, and he has designed several slot machines. so he should know how they work.

 

[spearmaster]

If you wouldn't mind taking a look at some of the other threads, you will find that newbies are welcome unless they are spammers - and that their points of view are also welcome, provided they are factual or clearly expressed as an opinion.

In your case, you are also welcome here - but please do not express something as fact when it is simply not so. Most members here hold casino representatives to a very high standard so the more forthcoming and helpful and factual you are, the more you will be appreciated. Your opinions, like everyone else's will generally be welcomed as well.

 

[spearmaster]

Grandmaster is right. This is the bio as taken directly from the Wizard's site. I should have looked first, but I knew it was something beginning with an "A" LOL...

The Wizard of Odds is Michael Shackleford, A.S.A., a professional actuary who has made a career of analyzing casino games. He runs the numbers on new games for casinos and game developers and has helped design many of the popular slot machines on the Internet. He is currently an Adjunct Professor of Casino Math at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, a former contributing editor to Casino Player magazine, and the author of the book Gambling 102, recently published by Huntington Press. The Wizard's landmark research into the actual returns of slot machines on the Las Vegas strip garnered international attention in 2002, and he has appeared numerous times on national television as a recognized expert on gambling strategy.

 

[FiftyPercent]

RGN / Program

Almost instantly after the player presses spin the machine has determined where the reels are going to stop. It then lets them spin a few seconds for entertainment value and then will exactly where programmed to.

They are designed to pay off a particular percentage.

From the Wizard Himself.

RGN is the premise in which slots are to adhere to, however they are then programmed to pay out a certain percentage!

 

[FiftyPercent]

More Helpful Info

From

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"When a casino orders a slot machine from the manufacturer, it specifies the payback it wants for that machine, which generally ranges from 90-98%."

Question: How can the manufacture specify the payback?

Ans: They are programmed!

"That may seem like a good deal, but it's not. If you're getting back 95% of your money, that means the casino is keeping 5%. If you play a dollar machine, two coins at a time, 800 spins an hour, for one hour, you're putting $1600 into the machine. The casino's 5% take means you lose $80/hr. on average. Ouch."

"This is one reason that casinos don't cheat with slot machines: They don't have to. The odds are so overwhelmingly bad, all they have to do is put the machine on the floor and rake in the money."

They should have a whole "Truth Hurts" section like the tobacco companies. The truth is, the odds are always in favor of the casino.

From my last lesson in Vegas during CES.....I played the roulette table balck for $100 because it went 7 times red. I lost. I did it again. I lost. I did it again. I lost. I went to the cash machine and came back, the ball was still red at number 15. I did it again, 16 red! I stopped. But before the streak ended it went 23 times red.

Can anyone figure out the moral of this factual story?

 

[Slotster!]

From From my last lesson in Vegas duri... How many times can a coin land on heads?...

 

[spearmaster]

Your original claim was that a pattern can be detected. At both the Wizard of Odds and Vegas Reference, you are told that each EVENT is random - and that future events do NOT take into account past events.

A pattern implies that either past events ARE taken into account, or that you have fixed a pattern of "win, lose, lose, lose, win BIG, lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, win, lose..." - ie. a predetermined event.

Either way, this is called a RIGGED game. By law, in Vegas or any other respectable jurisdiction, slots MUST be random and CANNOT be rigged. They MAY have variable states but no event can be predetermined - notice that the result is determined AFTER the button is pressed, or the handle pulled.

Does anyone but Todd *not* understand what is being described here?

 

[Slotmachine]

“Almost instantly after the player presses spin the machine has determined where the reels are going to stop. It then lets them spin a few seconds for entertainment value and then will exactly where programmed to. “

“They are designed to pay off a particular percentage.”

From the Wizard Himself.

RGN is the premise in which slots are to adhere to, however they are then programmed to pay out a certain percentage!

Hi FiftyPercent,

First of all, on my own behalf, let me welcome you to this forum, we are always keen to hear from the casino representatives and owners, and we value your input. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks posting here, like Jetset, Spearmaster, the Meister and others, so you're bound to get some flak if you post uninformed comments. Hey, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make yous stronger.

Then to the issue at hand: Your above comment reveals that you haven't grasped the most basic of principles behind the workings of fair slot machines. It is pretty obvious that you do not understand what the Wizard is saying. Maybe it's worth repeating here that the fact that the machines are designed to pay off a particular percentage does not contradict with their randomness at all. The virtual reels are designed so that if you spin the slot a 1,000,000 (or so) times, and if each spin is completely random, the average overall payout after those spins has a high probability of approaching the intended payout, say 95%. Each combination of reel positions has a certain probability of appearing, and furthermore, in a non-weighted slot machine, each combination of reel positions has exactly the same probability of appearing. A certain combination that results in a jackpot has exactly the same probability of happening than any other combination. The probability of actually hitting the jackpot is small, because there is only one combination that results in the jackpot, and the number of non-jackpot combinations is very large.

Just like dice. The dice are designed such that a throw of dice has a certain probability of resulting in, say, an odd number, and that probability is 50%. It's still random, but betting on odds a million times is extremely likely to provide a payout of about 50%. So you could say they are designed to give that payout for an odds bet. Slots are not (supposed to be) any different.

If you look at some PWC payout reports of reputable MG casinos, you will see that one month the slots return 93%, some other month over 100%. This is in concordance with randomness. Now if you see 98% every month, then it's time to get suspicious about the slots - that would indicate a rigged game.

The Wizard knows his stuff. He says the slots are random. I'm with the Wizard, and I won't touch any slots which have "patterns". Those slots are not random, therefore not fair, therefore rigged.

Cheers,
SM

 

[GrandMaster]

FiftyPercent, you still don't get it. Yes, slots are designed to pay out a certain percentage, but this does not mean that the machine needs to keep track whether it has been tight or loose and adjust for it. If the spins are independent, the Law of Large Numbers will ensure that in the long term the actual payout will be close to the theoretical payout.

 

[spearmaster]

designed (NOT programmed)

Almost.. LOL...

Machines *are* programmed... however, the results themselves are NOT programmed or pre-determined... because the result is generated by a RANDOM number.

A certain combination that results in a jackpot has exactly the same probability of happening than any other combination. The probability of actually hitting the jackpot is small, because there is only one combination that results in the jackpot, and the number of non-jackpot combinations is very large.

This is exactly it - even though technically this is still programming

 

[Slotmachine]

Almost.. LOL...
Machines *are* programmed... however, the results themselves are NOT programmed or pre-determined... because the result is generated by a RANDOM number.

Thanks. I edited my post. Anyway, you wouldn't say dice are programmed, and there is no difference between dice and slots as far as their fundamental principles are concerned (random result), so I wanted to emphasize randomness by shunning the word "programmed", even though it is technically the correct term as you say.

Cheers,
SM

 

[FiftyPercent]

Surrender

Ok! :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Thank you all for clarifying, although my head is about to explode. Note, I am not the casino program enginer, I just play one on TV. Saying that "I'll stick to what I know from now on", still won't make these types of dicussions go away seeing that semantics play a part, and I always believe what I am saying is correct. I do have a due diligence incentive every time I post (which is this group), but that does not guarantee being correct every time either.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's time on this.

We do attract a lot of slot players with a very high percentage of retention. I beleive it is because of our aggressive and frequent bonuses, in addition to the high quality flash games. Part of the mission for both the marketing group and the operations group is to keep our players happy. Without happy players, there is nothing.

 

[jamiester]

If your slots are preprogrammed to a pattern it is good that you admit it!

To say that ALL online slots are so is a contentious issue. Microgaming, for example, have gone to great lengths to assure players that games, including slots, are completeley random. These businesses may consider your global statement as libel, as it could seriously damage confidence in their honesty and reliability.



Incidentally, you are still exposed to pattern cracking in the long term if indeed you can play at 5c, crack the pattern, and bet at $5!! UK Fruit Machine manufacturers are paying dearly for their practice of rigging game patterns, although it is the operators who take the financial consequences. You really would be better off using altered paytables and random reel stepping, and employ a mathematician to double check the paytables before launch!

What do you mean by "wheel stepping" and "random reel stepping"?

 

[jetset]

Hello Friends, Now to move on to jetsets questions and reasonable cynicism.:notworthy Yes, I understand that past communications were poor and amateur at best, however this operation is different. I have been asked to manage many aspects of the operations via my company, WebMedia1 Ltd. WebMedia1 Ltd is an ad agency that works with various companies and industries in promoting online services and launching affiliate campaigns.

MGM Media, who has purchased all the software rights from Wager21, has asked me to help them with their image, marketing, affiliate relations, industry relations and strategic alliances. They still run the day to day casino operations regarding player support, security, payment, software upgrades, programming and network infrastructure. We work closely together and I have no problem stepping in to get fast resolution to any issues that arise.

The Casinos are all licensed Curacao.

No inquisition - simple curiousity when a new poster arrives representing the (allegedly changed) interests of a group of casinos which has, shall we say diplomatically, a colourful background?

Thank you for your responses above, Fiftypercent and a related question:

Has MGM Media made any changes to the Wager 21 software since acquiring the rights to it as you report in your posts?

And a belated welcome - I think you are now beginning to understand the value of lurking and listening before posting "fact", and you are perhaps also developing an appreciation of the technical knowledge of a number of expert posters here.

BTW - if you search on "MGM Media" in the archives here you will find:

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

Registrant: MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis Registered through: Go Daddy Software (

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) Domain Name: LADYDREAM.COM Created on: 17-Jan-01 Expires on: 17-Jan-09 Last Updated on: 24-Jan-03 Administrative Contact: Hamilton, Robert [email protected] MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis (855) 655-7899 Fax -- Technical Contact: Hamilton, Robert [email protected] MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis (855) 655-7899 Fax -- Domain servers in listed order: NS.ALIANZAVIVA.NET NS2.ALIANZAVIVA.NET

 

[vinylweatherman]

Reel stepping.

What do you mean by "wheel stepping" and "random reel stepping"?

Take the simple case of a 3 reel, one winline slot such as double magic at MG.

Each of the reels will have a fixed number of symbols, these can be represented by integers. (1,2,3,4..etc). Each possible combination can be represented numerically (12, 5, 9) say, could be "cherry", "Blank", "star".

For random stepping, the RNG would produce a number for each reel. The number would allow the reel to spin more than once round for entertainment value, and the latter reels would have an extra rotation added on. Each reel would be stepped individually from a separate random number. It might be that the computation would result in +1 for reel one, +5 +1 rotation for reel two, and +12 plus 2 rotations for reel 3. Say there are 16 symbols on each, and if the stepping goes past 16 it will simply step on to symbol 1 again. In the above example; (12, 5, 9) would spin entertainingly to (13, 10, 5). reel 3 is at 5 as it has stepped past symbol 16 and through 1 to 5 afterwards for a total advance of 12 symbols.

This is random stepping, with each reel fully independant of the others. This, in my view, represents a truly random slot with the probability of any given win being proportional to the number of combinations that offer it.
The more symbols, and the more reels, the more possible combinations.

The maths for this simple slot are pretty straight forward. Simply sum the payouts for all possible combinations, and then take the input as the stake multiplied by the number of possible combinations.
Total payout divided by total stake gives the payout ratio, multiply by 100 to express as percentage return.
The maths for multi-line and feature slots is anything but straight forward, as it can be if some form of weighting is employed. Weighting allows the reduction of the probability of a Jackpot on a slot with too few probable combinations to allow the jackpot to be delivered naturally yet maintain a positive house edge.

"Our" Wizard goes into far more detail on the subject at www.wizardofodds.com especially with the complexities of weighted reels. Don't forget he has designed and evaluated slots.

My explanation is based on how early "Fruit Machines" worked before they had software alowing them to be "rigged". Weighting of reels was then done by actually placing weights at certain points, so the speed of rotation would vary as the weight went round with the reel. reels were stopped mechanically by a rod that engaged after a certain amount of time had elapsed (all done by clockwork motors, wound up by pulling the handle).

 

[jamiester]

Take the simple case of a 3 reel, one winline slot such as double magic at MG.

Each of the reels will have a fixed number of symbols, these can be represented by integers. (1,2,3,4..etc). Each possible combination can be represented numerically (12, 5, 9) say, could be "cherry", "Blank", "star".

For random stepping, the RNG would produce a number for each reel. The number would allow the reel to spin more than once round for entertainment value, and the latter reels would have an extra rotation added on. Each reel would be stepped individually from a separate random number. It might be that the computation would result in +1 for reel one, +5 +1 rotation for reel two, and +12 plus 2 rotations for reel 3. Say there are 16 symbols on each, and if the stepping goes past 16 it will simply step on to symbol 1 again. In the above example; (12, 5, 9) would spin entertainingly to (13, 10, 5). reel 3 is at 5 as it has stepped past symbol 16 and through 1 to 5 afterwards for a total advance of 12 symbols.

This is random stepping, with each reel fully independant of the others. This, in my view, represents a truly random slot with the probability of any given win being proportional to the number of combinations that offer it.
The more symbols, and the more reels, the more possible combinations.

It seems to me that, per your explanation, all stepping does is adjust the random number that is generated for each reel by some fixed integer. Frankly, I don't see how that affects the randomness at all.
I understand about the extra rotations and stuff and how to calculate payout percentages and weighting etc... Tho I still don't see how it is possible to weight a five reel multipayline machine (actually, I just thought of a way, but you'd really be weighing symbols in groups of three and each symbol would have a different weight for each reel position...)
Thanks for your answer.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Never said the maths was easy in this case!

(actually, I just thought of a way, but you'd really be weighing symbols in groups of three and each symbol would have a different weight for each reel position...)

In the example I quoted, the RNG would deliver an integer between 1 and a maximum given value. This is the random element. Reel 2 and Reel 3 would spin with independent random numbers. There would be no question of the fact of Jackpot symbols on the first two reels influencing the probability of the third reel also landing on the jackpot.
Where the RNG decides the overall result, the probability of a given win is not related to the number and spacing of the symbols on the reels.
A cycling slot is where each result is drawn from a very long, but fixed, sequence of results. The distribution of the symbols has no relationship to the chance of getting a win. This type of slot is non-random, if sufficient data is collected, the cycled pattern could be cracked, and a few games can be used to predict whether the session will be a winning one or losing one. The beauty of a cycling slot is the casino can never lose to a bad run of lucky players. Once through the cycle gives a guaranteed house return. If the pattern is cracked, the casino STILL cannot lose, but players that know the pattern will have an edge over players that don't.

 

[jamiester]

In the example I quoted, the RNG would deliver an integer between 1 and a maximum given value. This is the random element. Reel 2 and Reel 3 would spin with independent random numbers. There would be no question of the fact of Jackpot symbols on the first two reels influencing the probability of the third reel also landing on the jackpot.

I find this to be a contradiction. In a fair machine, all the reels should operate independantly of each other. That means the third reel doesn't "know" what the results of the first two reels is. The way they avoid paying jackpots is by weighing the jackpot symbols very lightly on all three reels so that the odds of all 3 coming up together are slim. But in no way does the result of the third reel depend on the results of the first two. (As I reread your paragraph, I think this may be what you were saying after all...)
I guess my contention is, while I completely understand that each reel must "spin" independantly, I don't see how "stepping" (adding some fixed integer to each RNGenerated) affects the randomness in any way

Where the RNG decides the overall result, the probability of a given win is not related to the number and spacing of the symbols on the reels.
A cycling slot is where each result is drawn from a very long, but fixed, sequence of results. The distribution of the symbols has no relationship to the chance of getting a win. This type of slot is non-random, if sufficient data is collected, the cycled pattern could be cracked, and a few games can be used to predict whether the session will be a winning one or losing one. The beauty of a cycling slot is the casino can never lose to a bad run of lucky players. Once through the cycle gives a guaranteed house return. If the pattern is cracked, the casino STILL cannot lose, but players that know the pattern will have an edge over players that don't.

Thanks for the description of cycling slots. I also refer to these types of slots as "cheating" slots. I believe that one sure sign of a cycling slot is the lack of a specific sequence on the reels; ie the animation to display the wins don't represent the virtual reels.

 

[Slotmachine]

I'm curious about the RNG's that the casino software providers use. Are they pseudorandom numbers or true random numbers? The fact that Technical Systems Testing or PWC certifies the numbers as random does not answer this question. A pseudorandom number sequence is generated by an algorithm, and appears for all purposes as random, but can be predicted if you know the algorithm and where the first number in that sequence is. A true random number is generated by introducing a source of entropy, such as radioactive decay, and generating the RN from that. True random number sequence cannot be predicted. I'm guessing that we are dealing with pseudorandom numbers when we are playing slots. But I could be wrong.

As for the slots, I don't see the theoretical difference between having a RN separately for each reel and having just one big random number for the whole combination. Say there are 10,000,000 possible combinations in a 5-reel slot machine. Just generate a random number between 1 and 10,000,000 and have the slot show the combination that corresponds to that number. I'm guessing it would be technically simpler to have each reel assigned its own RN, because you'd only have to generate a RN say between 1 and 25 for each reel, and would just need a database of 5x25=125 different positions instead of needing this huge database of 10,000,000 combinations.

So my guess at how the MG slot machines work: Pseudorandom numbers, each reel gets its own random number. Good enough for me


Cheers,
SM

 

[jamiester]

I'm curious about the RNG's that the casino software providers use. Are they pseudorandom numbers or true random numbers? The fact that Technical Systems Testing or PWC certifies the numbers as random does not answer this question. A pseudorandom number sequence is generated by an algorithm, and appears for all purposes as random, but can be predicted if you know the algorithm and where the first number in that sequence is. A true random number is generated by introducing a source of entropy, such as radioactive decay, and generating the RN from that. True random number sequence cannot be predicted. I'm guessing that we are dealing with pseudorandom numbers when we are playing slots. But I could be wrong.

So my guess at how the MG slot machines work: Pseudorandom numbers, each reel gets its own random number. Good enough for me

I have heard that slot machines almost always use pseudo random numbers. For all practical purposes, the sequence is as uncrackable as with true random numbers due to the speed at which the numbers cycle (millions of times/second).

 

[GrandMaster]

Some casinos, e.g., Boss Media, use hardware based true random numbers, but even good pseudo random numbers should be good enough. The problem with cheating casinos is usually not with the RNG, but if the RNG is bad, the games cannot possibly be fair.

There is an interesting article on a really bad RNG at

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