Ladbrokes - Keep an eye on deposits!

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
Hi Everyone!

I have been a long time customer with Ladbrokes, using their bingo and odds. I have used their casino previously as well, but didn't use it for a while. I accidentally made a deposit into my casino account instead of the gaming account - this started a very long and confusing support conversation. I have previously worked for an iGaming company that uses Microgaming, so I know how the bonus system works.

When I made my deposit into the casino, my casino balance was €0 - meaning there should not be any wagering for my deposit since the bonus wagering for any previous bonuses should be reset.

However, my €35 deposit turned into €23.25 in real cash and a bonus amount of €11.75. I contacted support since I wanted to move it to the gaming account. They told me I could just transfer the funds and ignore the warning that I would lose my bonus. So I did. It only transfered the €23.25 over obviously, but they told me they would look into the bonus issue.

I received an e-mail from support 2 days later, telling me that the bonus was removed since I hadn't met the wagering requirements. I wrote them back saying that it shouldn't have been a bonus to begin with etc. and why €11.75 of my deposit turned into bonus cash. Once again, they gave me that generic answer.

After quite an extensive amount of e-mails and a long explanation from me, they told me that I still had unplayed play through requirements from a bonus that I received in 2010.

So this is a warning to everyone to keep an eye on your deposits turning into bonus cash. I have given up on chasing this, and thank god it was only €11.75 that I lost.
 

Nate

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
Cyberspace
This is a common MG error seen at various operators. The Bonus could be of a result of unfinished games or even a game that may still be in 'Session'. Once a balance zeroes out, it is unethical for the Casino NOT to refund the bonus balance back to cash.

The question is, how many people have been 'cheated' by MG and have just brushed it off without complaining?

Nate
 

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
Exactly, a zero balance should result in a flushed wagering requirement. At least that would be the standard practice...

Apparently Ladbrokes doesn't see it that way. I have been hunting on their website and their T&C for casino bonuses, but can't seem to find the place where it says the wagering will be flushed if balance reaches zero.
 

mn001

Full Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Location
Casino
Happened a few times for me aswell at ladbrokes. Live chat is the solution and then repeat and repeat and repeat to them till they give up and credit the money. Takes an hour or so sometimes to get them to understand what you mean.
 

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
I have been dealing with customer support since the 3rd of December when that thing happened, so I am quite fed up with talking to them now - and everytime I contact them I have to repeat everything over again and the whole explanation process begins one more time.

This was merely a warning about it, just in case some people were not aware :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This is getting beyond a joke. This is the SECOND time an MGS casino has stuck to it's guns and confiscated part of a CASH DEPOSIT from a player despite it surely being easy to look at Cashcheck and determine that said deposit was made on a zero balance.

Both times, players eventually gave up because they met an immovable brick wall with CS, and in the previous case, even taking the issue all the way to the LGA and Microgaming themselves made no difference.

This kind of behaviour is rogue with a capital R, and they are hiding behind "it's how the system works" rather than using common sense when dealing with the issue. This goes beyond arguments about wagering, bonus abuse, and "spirit of the bonus", it is arbitrary confisactation of CASH justified just because "computer says yes".

I bet things would be different if the system started making these errors in favour of the PLAYER, such as arbitrary conversion of all or part of a bonus to cash because a player EXCEEDED WR from a previous bonus.

If their is an unfinished game, tell them to PROVE IT! If they can't, they have to admit to there being a bug, and this could be a MAJOR embarrassment to Microgaming since they have been robbing players of deposited cash rather than taking a proper look at the problems when reported.

Microgaming have ALREADY been embarrassed earlier in the year when similar instances of cash deposits turning to bonus on a zero balance was found to be a bug introduced with Multi player Wheel of Wealth, yet Microgaming are now claiming it is now "impossible" for this to be the case now that this one bug got patched, yet further incidents are being reported.

I ROUTINELY find part of my cash deposits turning to bonus funds when the balance is zero, but the amount tends to be small compared to the amount deposited and my intended amount of wagering, so I do tend to "let it go". I have sometimes found an unfinished game from long ago in the system by accident at a later date when I go to play, but this is not always the case.

The Viper client now detects unfinished games and displays the information in the "pitboss slider" after login, and before you have a chance to launch banking to make a deposit. With this, further such incidents are almost certain to be down to a bug, rather than an unfinished game.


The only possible complication is where both Flash and Viper are used, and the unfinished game is in Flash, but the fresh deposit is made through the Viper client. It is likely the Viper function will not detect this, but the bonus system will.

The only way a player can be 100% certain they have been shafted is to open EVERY game in both Flash and Viper, and check that there is no unfinished game present.
 

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
Hmmm, after looking at my account now, it seems like they have credited my account with €11.75....

They must have seen this thread or something!

I agree with vinylweatherman - This is absolutely rediculess. Should not be possible that the system converts cash into bonus cash from a fresh deposit on a zero balance, and then having to give up on your own funds when trying to get the error corrected.

I have always been very fond of Ladbrokes, but then again, I have never needed their customer support before now.

I don't use the Viper Client since I am on a Mac, so I wouldn't have a chance to see wether or not I have unfinished games in my account either so I would never have noticed that I had bonus cash instead of real money if I had not tried to transfer it to a different wallet.
 

Flyer187

Senior Member
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
England, UK
I had an unfinished game problem at 2 mg casinos - just found out what they were and the bonus turned to cash :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hmmm, after looking at my account now, it seems like they have credited my account with €11.75....

They must have seen this thread or something!

I agree with vinylweatherman - This is absolutely rediculess. Should not be possible that the system converts cash into bonus cash from a fresh deposit on a zero balance, and then having to give up on your own funds when trying to get the error corrected.

I have always been very fond of Ladbrokes, but then again, I have never needed their customer support before now.

I don't use the Viper Client since I am on a Mac, so I wouldn't have a chance to see wether or not I have unfinished games in my account either so I would never have noticed that I had bonus cash instead of real money if I had not tried to transfer it to a different wallet.

You wouldn't be able to use the Flash either surely, so how could you have EVER played in the casino, let alone have an unfinished game.

It should not have needed the glare of publicity for them to correct this error. You spent a month getting nowhere, accepted the loss, and then posted your experience. All of a sudden, they quietly slip the money back into your account after spending nearly a month saying you were in the wrong and were not due this money.

This is STILL rogue behaviour, as they should be treating ALL their players fairly, not just those with a voice, and who know where best to use it.

CS should have referred the matter up the chain, but the outcome suggests this didn't happen, and this public fuss is the first the "right people" have heard of this.

They have now given the money back, but they have NOT said WHY this happened in the first place. If it was found to be a bug, it needs to be addressed with Microgaming, NOT swept under the carpet by dealing with players via a manual correction, only for it to keep happening to other players. Even this manual correction had to be dragged out of them, so many players will NOT be getting treated fairly over this.

EVERY incident should be traceable to an unfinished game, and once done, this should be forwarded to the player as justification for what happened. The recent two cases suggest that neither incident could be traced to a specific game by the operator nor Microgaming, yet both still presume this MUST be the explanation, and that they have simply not been able to find the game in question during their investigations.

Incidents of this type have been occurring for YEARS, and fair treatment for affected players has been hit & miss. SOME incidents have been traced to specific uncompleted games, but some have never been explained properly. Players have also found uncompleted games themselves after seeing this occur, and have not contacted CS about it.
 

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
You wouldn't be able to use the Flash either surely, so how could you have EVER played in the casino, let alone have an unfinished game.

It should not have needed the glare of publicity for them to correct this error. You spent a month getting nowhere, accepted the loss, and then posted your experience. All of a sudden, they quietly slip the money back into your account after spending nearly a month saying you were in the wrong and were not due this money.

This is STILL rogue behaviour, as they should be treating ALL their players fairly, not just those with a voice, and who know where best to use it.

CS should have referred the matter up the chain, but the outcome suggests this didn't happen, and this public fuss is the first the "right people" have heard of this.

They have now given the money back, but they have NOT said WHY this happened in the first place. If it was found to be a bug, it needs to be addressed with Microgaming, NOT swept under the carpet by dealing with players via a manual correction, only for it to keep happening to other players. Even this manual correction had to be dragged out of them, so many players will NOT be getting treated fairly over this.

EVERY incident should be traceable to an unfinished game, and once done, this should be forwarded to the player as justification for what happened. The recent two cases suggest that neither incident could be traced to a specific game by the operator nor Microgaming, yet both still presume this MUST be the explanation, and that they have simply not been able to find the game in question during their investigations.

Incidents of this type have been occurring for YEARS, and fair treatment for affected players has been hit & miss. SOME incidents have been traced to specific uncompleted games, but some have never been explained properly. Players have also found uncompleted games themselves after seeing this occur, and have not contacted CS about it.

Actually, it is possible to play flash on Mac - you just need to have firefox. But I didn't use the casino for a long time, except for xmas freespins they had mid november. Won a few dollars with those freespins and then played the balance to zero.

After posting this thread, I sent Ladbrokes an e-mail informing them that I had given up on the issue and informed about this thread. Only 4 minutes later, the funds were credited. I haven't received any form of e-mail from them though as to why they decided to suddenly credit the money.

With the whole behaviour and giving me the run around, I lost interest in getting the funds back. I was originally not going to do anything about it, but the more I thought about it, the more the case bugged me, hence the thread.

I do understand that CS can sometimes be misunderstanding the customer and errors occur, but in this case it was so obvious they were not listening to what the issue was. In every single e-mail I had to explain exactly what I meant, like a teacher would explain math to a classroom, and then I received the rules for bonus cash and wagering requirements, and several explanations about why the bonus cash was removed.

In my original complaint to CS, they said they had to contact MG to check the case. So obviously either MG has checked and determined that "nothing was wrong" or they never escalated it further.

It is very alarming that customers are expected to follow terms that are sometimes so far away from reasonable, only to have casinoes run away from responsibily when they are in the wrong.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I've had the same problem, more than once, but always at 32Red. LiveChat has always corrected the issue for me immediately, except in one instance, where the resolution was to come to livechat when I was ready to cash out if there was still a bonus balance. This is one reason they truly are the best MG casino.

Even if a casino does not give their frontline support the ability to resolve the issue on the spot (and for a known bug like this, it should be given), it should be resolved by finance as soon as someone is in, so either same day, or next working day.

Anything else is unacceptable.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Actually, it is possible to play flash on Mac - you just need to have firefox. But I didn't use the casino for a long time, except for xmas freespins they had mid november. Won a few dollars with those freespins and then played the balance to zero.

After posting this thread, I sent Ladbrokes an e-mail informing them that I had given up on the issue and informed about this thread. Only 4 minutes later, the funds were credited. I haven't received any form of e-mail from them though as to why they decided to suddenly credit the money.

With the whole behaviour and giving me the run around, I lost interest in getting the funds back. I was originally not going to do anything about it, but the more I thought about it, the more the case bugged me, hence the thread.

I do understand that CS can sometimes be misunderstanding the customer and errors occur, but in this case it was so obvious they were not listening to what the issue was. In every single e-mail I had to explain exactly what I meant, like a teacher would explain math to a classroom, and then I received the rules for bonus cash and wagering requirements, and several explanations about why the bonus cash was removed.

In my original complaint to CS, they said they had to contact MG to check the case. So obviously either MG has checked and determined that "nothing was wrong" or they never escalated it further.

It is very alarming that customers are expected to follow terms that are sometimes so far away from reasonable, only to have casinoes run away from responsibily when they are in the wrong.

It seems unlikely that playing a few dollars to zero will result in a session long enough for you to forget what you played, and miss checking up on any disconnects. The only explanation in their favour is that one of the games you used when playing to zero became uncompleted due to it requiring further input from yourself.

This seems to suggest that the bug occurs when a free chip is granted on an account with a zero balance, and played to zero. If you can remember which games you played back in November, you may be able to reproduce this bug and gather "damning" evidence that proves this IS a bug, and not players missing unfinished games.

Funny how the SAME CS correct the issue 4 MINUTES after you email them to tell them you have posted a summary of this story after accepting defeat, yet the SAME CS refused point blank to budge on the issue for nearly a month of you NOT raising this in public.

Clearly, they DO have the power to resolve this "on the spot", but chose not to take it seriously because they thought they could get away with it and no-one other than them and yourself would ever know.

I feel the rep should offer an explanation of this incident, the outcome, and WHY it took a mere 4 minutes to resolve after posting what could NOT be resolved in nearly a MONTH of email exchanges between player and casino. I would also like to know whether they DID trace an unfinished game, and let you off as a goodwill gesture, or whether this was found to be a bug after all.


What does this teach their players?

Try to deal with CS - takes "forever", rant in public out of frustration - fixed in minutes. This will teach players that quick escalation to public airing after a "stonewall" from CS is the only viable course of action to break the deadlock. This will have players losing faith in the ability of CS to deal properly with their problems, and will result in an increase of relatively minor problems becoming public.

This issue has been around for YEARS, so there is no excuse for there being no proper briefing of front line CS and a fair procedure for investigating and dealing with this issue.

The fact that this is LADBROKES, rather than some lesser known operation, is even MORE damning. Does the main Ladbrokes company not give a damn what the actions of it's online arm does to their good name? It's an error that quite a few big UK bookies have fallen into, respected name built up over decades of running high street shops, and tarnished by the repeated incompetences of their online divisions.
 

KamCan

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Location
Malta
So I took a look at my playcheck via their website, and it shows I got the freespins on Santas Wild Ride, which was winnings of 11.75 EUR. I then moved on to play all the funds on Sure Win, all the way down to zero.

I browsed through all my e-mail conversations with support again, and must have overlooked a part of their e-mail. On the 18th they wrote they had credited me the amount apparently.

I looked through the normal transaction overview on Ladbrokes, where it doesnt show a manual adjustment on the 18th, so that's why I never noticed it - you can only see the adjustment in playcheck, which is why I just noticed it today. The 4 minutes after is me moving it out of the casino. Seems I am a little confused today :rolleyes:

So Ladbrokes did correct the issue apparently.

The part I overlooked says "When further investigating this I can see that 11.75 was taken from your casino balance due to a bonus not being played through in the casino. As the bonus was from last year I have manually credited your casino wallet with 11.75."

They didnt admit that an error occured though.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
So I took a look at my playcheck via their website, and it shows I got the freespins on Santas Wild Ride, which was winnings of 11.75 EUR. I then moved on to play all the funds on Sure Win, all the way down to zero.

I browsed through all my e-mail conversations with support again, and must have overlooked a part of their e-mail. On the 18th they wrote they had credited me the amount apparently.

I looked through the normal transaction overview on Ladbrokes, where it doesnt show a manual adjustment on the 18th, so that's why I never noticed it - you can only see the adjustment in playcheck, which is why I just noticed it today. The 4 minutes after is me moving it out of the casino. Seems I am a little confused today :rolleyes:

So Ladbrokes did correct the issue apparently.

The part I overlooked says "When further investigating this I can see that 11.75 was taken from your casino balance due to a bonus not being played through in the casino. As the bonus was from last year I have manually credited your casino wallet with 11.75."

They didnt admit that an error occured though.

Looks like we have narrowed down the circumstances that causes this bug.

You took the free spin promotion, and won the EXACT amount that later got converted into cash. You then proceeded to play this bonus chip to zero on a different game. Somehow, the system didn't recognise that you had played the bonus to zero, and wrongly carried it over to your next deposit.

This was not a deposit bonus, nor a normal free chip credited to the bonus account, but the use of the "promotional free spins" facility to grant a variable free chip. This would considerably reduce the occurrance of this error, since most free games tend to be granted as part of a deposit related promotion.

It may be possible to reproduce this error as Ladbrokes often dish out free spins this way, even though their value is small.


Whilst they have credited the amount, their refusal to accept there is a bug means this issue continues to remain in the software, and will continue to affect players. It may even be related to specific slots, rather than all promotional free spins.

I have experienced a bug in the slot Summer Holiday when promotional free spins are granted. I too got nowhere with Red Flush CS over this, and as far as I know, the problem remains. It only occurred under a very specific set of circumstances where a bonus free spins round was won during promotional free spins, and the option to ditch the first prize and play the bonus round a second time was taken. In this instance, the first win, although granted to bonus balance because it comes from promotional free spins, was removed from the CASH balance, and the second run credited again to the BONUS balance. This artificially inflated my WR by the amount due on the first bonus round, and converted part of my deposit into bonus funds, the promotional spins having been granted as a result of the deposit.

The same error may well occur on No Worries if this game is used for promotional free spins, and may indicate the potential for another wheel of wealth type problem with the new Multi-player variant of no worries if played on a bonus.
 

Johnny's Arcade

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 17, 2011
Location
114 Gorgie Road Edinburgh EH11 2NR
I thought Ladbrokes was supposed to be a "fair play" bookies? I would not really know as I have never been back since they got those awful Global Draw terminals in. What was wrong with the old "Lara" terminals? At least it was possible to win on them (sometimes!)
 
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