Labour MP's resign from the party

[dunover]

Ah right, when was that deal accepted?

Alluding to your reference to 'after Brexit'. Perhaps I should have stated 'proposed deal' to make it more obvious. The deal we end up with will be May's with some backstop wording different or we will leave without one. Either way, we will have the control of our borders and migration again. The EU have already conceded that, when it actually happens. Therefore it will not be a Norway, which is about as bad as we could get.

 

[colinsunderland]

Alluding to your reference to 'after Brexit'. Perhaps I should have stated 'proposed deal' to make it more obvious. The deal we end up with will be May's with some backstop wording different or we will leave without one. Either way, we will have the control of our borders and migration again. The EU have already conceded that, when it actually happens. Therefore it will not be a Norway, which is about as bad as we could get.

Right so thats not guaranteed then? And its pretty much what we have now, we just choose not to control our borders properly, even though we have the power to. Why will leaving make a difference to that? Current EU rules state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months.

Aside from that, most migrants are from outside the EU, so again, how will leaving the EU stop that? Do you think the people emigrating from the UK to EU countries should be stopped too, which isn't far off the amount who come to the UK from the EU?

 

[dunover]

Right so thats not guaranteed then? And its pretty much what we have now, we just choose not to control our borders properly, even though we have the power to. Why will leaving make a difference to that? Current EU rules state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months.

Aside from that, most migrants are from outside the EU, so again, how will leaving the EU stop that? Do you think the people emigrating from the UK to EU countries should be stopped too, which isn't far off the amount who come to the UK from the EU?

Not far off

3.8 million EU citizens in the UK
Around 3.8 million people living in the UK in 2018 were citizens of another EU country. That’s about 6% of the UK population, although these figures exclude people who live in communal establishments. Similarly, 6% of the UK population were born in another EU country.

1.3 million people from the UK live in the rest of the EU
Figures for 2017 suggest that 1.3 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries.


So I'd hardly call 3x more 'not far off the same'.....

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[colinsunderland]

Not far off

3.8 million EU citizens in the UK
Around 3.8 million people living in the UK in 2018 were citizens of another EU country. That’s about 6% of the UK population, although these figures exclude people who live in communal establishments. Similarly, 6% of the UK population were born in another EU country.

1.3 million people from the UK live in the rest of the EU
Figures for 2017 suggest that 1.3 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries.


So I'd hardly call 3x more 'not far off the same'.....

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The very first paragraph on that page states

An

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219,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK in the year to June 2018, and about 145,000 emigrated abroad. So EU ‘net migration’ was around 74,000—the lowest level recorded since the year to September 2012.

219000 is not 3 times 145000

Again though, whatever the figures, you ignored the rest of my post. Typical 'leave' voter, very selectively answers questions, ignoring the ones that don't suit your views.

 

[mack341]

I don't trust this 'full fact' site

the following taken from their own website is very revealing:

"Full Fact, the UK's independent, non-partisan fact checking organisation has secured $500,000 in funding for two new automated tools to transform fact checking and the international battle against fake news. They are called LIVE and TRENDS.

Both tools will be based on one powerful and modular fact checking engine. Key fact checkers from around the world will be able to plug in custom components that make their work more effective.

The game-changing investment comes from the Omidyar Network, the leading philanthropic investment firm established by eBay founder Pierre Omidyar and Open Society Foundations, the largest philanthropic funder of human rights in the world, founded by George Soros. "[and funded by him too]

 

[dunover]

The very first paragraph on that page states

An

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219,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK in the year to June 2018, and about 145,000 emigrated abroad. So EU ‘net migration’ was around 74,000—the lowest level recorded since the year to September 2012.

219000 is not 3 times 145000

Again though, whatever the figures, you ignored the rest of my post. Typical 'leave' voter, very selectively answers questions, ignoring the ones that don't suit your views.

One year in isolation is hardly the issue it? The figures still show a medium-sized town's population entering the UK net, an unsustainable amount which stretches services, makes more demands on housing and has made our country the most densely populated in Europe.
So as I said the freedom of movement rules have resulted in 3x more entering than emigrating, from the EU. This is what voters were concerned about and you have chosen the lowest year's figures to conveniently justify your argument. Even allowing for that, that's still a massive net migration into the UK and the voters were certainly not focussing on any particular year, but the cumulative effect. Whatever figures you choose, it was the primary reason for many leave voters. A staggering 2.5 million extra people living here in this already overcrowded country. Go to the constituencies they settled in and then see where the biggest leave votes occurred.

 

[colinsunderland]

One year in isolation is hardly the issue it? The figures still show a medium-sized town's population entering the UK net, an unsustainable amount which stretches services, makes more demands on housing and has made our country the most densely populated in Europe.
So as I said the freedom of movement rules have resulted in 3x more entering than emigrating, from the EU. This is what voters were concerned about and you have chosen the lowest year's figures to conveniently justify your argument. E

Well no, I used the most recent figures available, from the site you linked to. It also states lowest since 2012, so presumably 2012 was lower, so again, you are cherry picking what justifies your argument. You say its a medium size towns population, but is also less than 1% of London's population.
We have the 5th highest number of people who have left the UK to live in other EU countries, out of all EU countries, hardly insignificant.
Still waiting for you to answer how leaving the EU will stop the immigration problem though considering we have the power now to limit the number of people coming in by quite a substantial amount.

 

[mack341]

lets be honest most of the brits living in other EU countries are retirees living in spain

 

[colinsunderland]

lets be honest most of the brits living in other EU countries are retirees living in spain

Yeah, they actually are

 

[dunover]

lowing for that

Well no, I used the most recent figures available, from the site you linked to. It also states lowest since 2012, so presumably 2012 was lower, so again, you are cherry picking what justifies your argument. You say its a medium size towns population, but is also less than 1% of London's population.
We have the 5th highest number of people who have left the UK to live in other EU countries, out of all EU countries, hardly insignificant.
Still waiting for you to answer how leaving the EU will stop the immigration problem though considering we have the power now to limit the number of people coming in by quite a substantial amount.

Well there's a shock!! Being one of the top 5 most populous nations in the EU.
To help you identify the obvious, after Brexit the pressure will be incumbent on any administration to ensure the concerns that lead to the Brexit vote are met. Yes, I am aware we could have limited migration, removed scroungers and criminals (as the French and Italians did with the Roma when their activities pissed too many off) under existing EU rules. The clowns in charge, of both parties, chose not to. If they had, I believe sincerely that enough of those voting leave would have not done so and remain would have narrowly won. So the irony in my view is that the liberals who can't even now accept we're leaving are reaping the rewards for their inaction.

 

[colinsunderland]

lowing for that


Well there's a shock!! Being one of the top 5 most populous nations in the EU.
To help you identify the obvious, after Brexit the pressure will be incumbent on any administration to ensure the concerns that lead to the Brexit vote are met. Yes, I am aware we could have limited migration, removed scroungers and criminals (as the French and Italians did with the Roma when their activities pissed too many off) under existing EU rules. The clowns in charge, of both parties, chose not to. If they had, I believe sincerely that enough of those voting leave would have not done so and remain would have narrowly won. So the irony in my view is that the liberals who can't even now accept we're leaving are reaping the rewards for their inaction.

ok, serious question, and to move away from the pointless arguments that neither of us will win , do you think we will actually leave at the end of March? I don't. There's no way a deal will be in place by then, and I would be amazed if we left with no deal. May doesn't want to leave and never has, so I am certain she will do whatever she can to stop it happening, especially bearing in mind the referendum is not legally binding so she has no legal obligation to carry it out.

 

[dunover]

ok, serious question, and to move away from the pointless arguments that neither of us will win , do you think we will actually leave at the end of March? I don't. There's no way a deal will be in place by then, and I would be amazed if we left with no deal. May doesn't want to leave and never has, so I am certain she will do whatever she can to stop it happening, especially bearing in mind the referendum is not legally binding so she has no legal obligation to carry it out.

No, but it's politically binding. Hence her getting us a deal, which ironically even the Gradinua paper has stated fulfils pretty much what the leavers voted for. I think she's playing the timeout on Parliament hoping that faced with her deal or none, MP's will pass it. To be fair to her I think she is genuinely trying to honour the result even if she didn't support it. The general election messed things up and immediately without an overall majority and a Con-UU coalition, the EU spotted a way to thwart us leaving.

I wouldn't be surprised if at the last minute a deal was approved in Parliament, if not I believe an extension will be applied for. I don't want to leave without a deal at all, but if the alternative was remaining I would take it.

 

[trancemonkey]

Oops... what did Mac72 do? I thought they were calm and reasoned in here... oh well.

 

[geordiecolin]

Oops... what did Mac72 do? I thought they were calm and reasoned in here... oh well.

I had not noticed any possible infractions from him since his last ban alongside thepogg. Its getting to be a little bit like dodge city

 

[mack341]

It's not a very good name that they've chosen 'the Independent Group' sounds odd, people will think they're linked to the newspaper.

They also seem really pleased with themselves, as if its all a jolly jape, sixth form stuff.

edit : All the while they've disenfranchised their constituent's voters, who thought they were electing a labour or conservative mp, aligned to that party's manifesto and beliefs, not hitched up to chuka's new brainchild party.

 

[pinnit2014]

It's not a very good name that they've chosen 'the Independent Group' sounds odd, people will think they're linked to the newspaper.

They also seem really pleased with themselves, as if its all a jolly jape, sixth form stuff.

They’ve got a certain twang of Lib Dem about them