Kiss Casino

[florst28]

I still have not been paid by these guys. They asked me to send in forms, which i did. They said they approved them and i would receive my money shortly. Its been another 5 days and no money.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

You HAVE to look at all terms. It's not a question of anyone telling you to do so or not. It's deceiptful and misleading, no question about that. It's designed to con players, no doubt about that either. All that aside, they still take precedence, and an experienced player should know to check and record them EVERY time he plays. And I DID post warnings about this lot some time ago, as I keep saying.

If a casino sends me an email with terms and conditions in it and without mentioning that other terms and conditions exist then as far as I'm concerned these are the terms that should take precedence. Similarly if I email support to ask what the terms and conditions are, then the reply that they give me should take precedence - that's just common sense to me. Personally I don't trust websites so I email for T&C's if I'm not sure about the casino and these are the terms I expect to be held to, a website can be changed anytime but an email always stays the same

By your reasoning a casino can put some randon T&C anywhere on it's website and this should take precedence - surely this can't be right. I mean I've never even been informed by Kiss that they have a website - every offer I've played there has been sent by email.

Even cj from Kiss thinks that the casino should send either the full terms or a link to the terms in the email.

The email should contain either a ) no terms but a link to the website terms page or b ) all terms, general casino and promo specific should be included with the email.

What are other people's views on this?

 

[jerseyguy11]

sorry but i agree with dirk. its not your responsibility to assume the role of detective and investigate every inch of the casino website to locate what possible could pertain to the bonus offer by email.

if a casino includes terms and conditions in a bonus offered via email, then does not include a "please refer to promotional rules on our website for full terms and conditions" or "all promotional terms and conditions on our website apply" then the player cannot be expected to include the terms on the website.

 

[caruso]

By your reasoning a casino can put some randon T&C anywhere on it's website and this should take precedence - surely this can't be right.

Of course it's not right, but it's a fact of life. It doesn't matter what you "consider" correct by normal standards. These tin pot RTGs don't exist to offer quality online gambling, they exist to rip off their customers with bogus promos, retroactive term changes, conflicting terms...the list is endless; remember Angelciti? They sent out one Email, realized it hadn't done them any good, re-did it and tried to claim the first one had never been sent. Remember Gaming Club? They advertized a promo for allcomers, then tried to claim it was Email only, in spite of it being posted on the website - and that's one of the better groups. There are scores of other examples. These are ripoff joints, and if you choose to patronize them you have to have EVERYTHING in place for when they pull the ripoff on you and you need evidence for mediation.

Either you play their game their way or you don't play at all. Never take any RTG up on anything without taking copies of every relevant page of the website. Preferably, copy the ENTIRE website - then they can't slip anything in somewhere you'd never think to look and claim it was there from the beginning. Time consuming but worth it.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I agree with what you say, but surely this is what Montana has been started for - to make sure this doesn't happen.

I'd be amazed and disgusted if they find that I should be held to the max cashout term when Kiss have never informed me of it (or even mentioned that T&C's exist on their website).

With Bryan also welcoming back RTG casino's to his recommended list this also gives me hope that RTG are finally getting themselves sorted.

 

[cj.]

sorry but i agree with dirk. its not your responsibility to assume the role of detective and investigate every inch of the casino website to locate what possible could pertain to the bonus offer by email.

if a casino includes terms and conditions in a bonus offered via email, then does not include a "please refer to promotional rules on our website for full terms and conditions" or "all promotional terms and conditions on our website apply" then the player cannot be expected to include the terms on the website.

What if you were an existing customer of the casino, had played there after coming in via the front page (with terms & promo's all present on the site), then were sent a *special* existing player offer via email which only contained additional terms specific to that offer.

Would you assume the coupon was free of all standard playing terms, with no mention of max cashout or wagering requirements?

I agree that the process appears deceptive, but that wasn't our intention - it was carelessness on our part to not simply add 'please ensure you have read and understand the full site terms by clicking here'. We assumed that existing players were already aware of the terms as they had played in our casino prior to receiving email offers. Montana's solution was in favor of the player in this instance, so we are taking steps to prevent confusion in the future.

I have made a couple of new coupons this week and have included all terms physically on the coupon ... ie, as part of the actual graphic so we don't have a similar issue again. This ensures that even if the coupons are saved separately from the email that the terms are always attached.

But with this said ... I am happy to take bets on how long it will be before a player crops the terms off the graphic and tries to claim they were never there in the first place. My bet is a few weeks!

Jetset ... we've tried to call you several times, left a message with a family member, sent you our number, emailed & pm'd you, but you seem to be avoiding us everywhere but this public board? The more information that gets sent to me about you & your position in the industry, the less it appears that your concern is the players ... you seem to only care about players who have issues with RTG casino's?

I'm taking the complaints on this board very seriously, as they deserve - you do not need to point out to us how serious it is when players have concerns with the stability of a company. All but Florst28 has been solved (age verification issue which I am working on). And obviously Dirk isn't happy with the mediated solution either, but there's nothing further I can do about that.

Your concern for the wellbeing of the players is admirable, however you have been given the opportunity to discuss the situation verbally and have not bothered to return phonecalls or emails. There are certain details that I am not comfortable discussing on a chat board as they involve a third party - not all sensitive issues are financial, despite what you seem to think. If you care so much about the players as you claim to, I would have thought you would be going out of your way to find out as much as you can with our open offer to contact you, but instead you ignore our messages and don't return our calls?

Let us know if you change your mind and want to chat - we'll be happy to pay for the international phonecall if that's why you are avoiding calling us back ...

 

[The Dude]

I'm back in the saddle again after a week's hiatus.

So you got your money according to the rules and youre still crying???

... Grow up!

... Just how much influence does a board guy and that pompous consultant guy have!!??..very little Ill bet.

Be mellow on the personal digs. They are unwelcome here. Thanks!

Looks like we're learning via the school of hard knocks here:

If a casino sends me an email with terms and conditions in it and without mentioning that other terms and conditions exist then as far as I'm concerned these are the terms that should take precedence. Similarly if I email support to ask what the terms and conditions are, then the reply that they give me should take precedence - that's just common sense to me.

I agree, this addresses the common sense factor - which many of us toy with when taking up a special offer at an online casino. This makes total sense to the player: the player receives an offer that includes T&Cs, to the player these T&Cs are the ones that apply.

And then we have the casino's perspective:

What if you were an existing customer of the casino, had played there after coming in via the front page (with terms & promo's all present on the site), then were sent a *special* existing player offer via email which only contained additional terms specific to that offer.

Which makes sense as well - but from a marketer's standpoint. By the way, thanks CJ for your participation in this matter - it's very much appreciated.

So we clearly have two viewpoints butting heads against each other. But this is going to happen when casinos set up certain T&Cs to prevent player abuse, and players are adamant against being taken for a ride by the casinos. Too bad it's taken so much energy to have this resolved.

Running a casino is a tricky business and takes a lot of foresight. One slip-up concerning making T&Cs clear can seriously backfire--and the casinos know this. In most cases (like I believe applies to this one), it's not an intentional oversight on the casino's part in order to trick the player. It's just an oversight because of the casino not "seeing" through the players' eyes - viewpoint.

Caruso mentioned the Angelciti fiasco which was merely a laughable attempt by the operators to try and cover up a major screw-up in their T&Cs. I think the operators hadn't a clue that a number of sharp players would hold their (the operators) feet to the fire when it comes to changing T&Cs retroactively and pretending it didn't happen.

It appears that Caruso has had a number of learning experiences in this arena

Either you play their game their way or you don't play at all. Never take any RTG up on anything without taking copies of every relevant page of the website.

Valid point - but I still don't feel that the majority of casinos intentions are to rip off players via this road - it's too easy to get caught.

 

[The Dude]

Admin note: renaming thread to reflect "non-pinching"

 

[jetset]

CJ, I am going to ignore your totally inaccurate personal comments here because you do not appear to be sufficiently informed to know what you are talking about.

I have been in contact with both RTG copied to your boss, and further discussion with the latter will take place when it is on the record and on email.

The best thing you can do with your unfortunate attitude and penchant for unfounded personal insults is to concentrate on getting the owed players paid imo.

The issue of your waiting for investor-owner monies is seperate from getting these players paid, but it is nevertheless of interest to the player community for the reasons posted beforehand. If those monies are now available and you anticipate no further problems with delayed payments to players, why not offer that reassurance?

QUOTE I agree that the process appears deceptive, but that wasn't our intention - it was carelessness on our part to not simply add 'please ensure you have read and understand the full site terms by clicking here'. We assumed that existing players were already aware of the terms as they had played in our casino prior to receiving email offers. Montana's solution was in favor of the player in this instance, so we are taking steps to prevent confusion in the future.UNQUOTE

I think your comment right there says it all. You were careless. That's not the player's fault, and a reputable casino should take care of the outstanding $400 by which he has been prejudiced imo.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Just to let everyone know I still haven't received a $ from these.

CJ - you say:

I agree that the process appears deceptive, but that wasn't our intention - it was carelessness on our part to not simply add 'please ensure you have read and understand the full site terms by clicking here

In regards to this, you still send me offers every week and I noticed that shortly after I had started making my complaints that you changed the terms on the email and included the max cashout term. I thought that that was fair enough and that you'd learnt from your mistake.

However the next week you only included certain terms again (not the max cashout term) and provided a link to the general terms. This instantly made me think that you were once again trying to hide the terms - obviously you can't have had enough takers when you made the terms obvious.

There's also been no satisfactory explanation for the amount of people reporting slow payment at both you and Giant Vegas.

You also state:

And obviously Dirk isn't happy with the mediated solution either, but there's nothing further I can do about that.

Er, how about paying me the amount according to the terms and conditions you sent me - that should cheer me up, and would be what any reputable casino would do.

 

[florst28]

I'd just like to note that kiss payed me in full this morning. Better late than never.

 

[the5thellement]

An update on my situation. I sent in my faxback and ID which I recieved an email that said all the docs were approved and that I would be paid in 3 days. It has been 1 week and I still have not gotten paid to neteller. CJ, I was wonderng when I will get paid.
Thanks

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Well I've just received an email from Montana saying that Kiss has sent me $3,850 ($400 short of what my balance was) by cheque - with no reply to my email regading the terms.

I've mailed them again but seeing as they never reply to my emails I doubt I'll get a response.

 

[the5thellement]

I still havent been paid, all my docs have been approved. Any help CJ?

 

[the5thellement]

Another week has past and I still have not been paid. I highly recomend no players go to this casino as they are unwilling to even payout small cashins of 350$.

 

[jetset]

Another week has past and I still have not been paid. I highly recomend no players go to this casino as they are unwilling to even payout small cashins of 350$.

Did you try these emails?

bgood@xmsg.com

email: carlaj@giantrevenue.com
icq: 3422430