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Kindred affiliates at it now, adding quotas

Discussion in 'Affiliate Issues' started by colinsunderland, Mar 21, 2018.

    Mar 21, 2018
  1. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    Logged into my account and got a pop up to agree to stating......

    Dear Affiliate,

    As per Provision 4 of the Introductory Provisions of our existing Terms and Conditions (“T&Cs”), this message serves as notice that Kindred Affiliates is changing part of the Agreement which governs our business relationship.

    The main changes to the Agreement are highlighted below and a full copy of our updated T&Cs (for both Australia and Rest of World) can be found You must register/login in order to see the link..

    Main changes:

    • 1.4. With respect to the European Union Fourth Anti-Money Laundering Directive, laws on the prevention of money laundering and financing of terrorism and in line with Kindred Group’s policy of Supplier Due Diligence, the Affiliate will be required to verify their identity by providing copies of personal and, where applicable, company identification and registration documents.
    • 2 At all times the Affiliate agrees to be bound by the Kindred Affiliates Advertising Guidelines, a copy of which is available You must register/login in order to see the link.
    • 6. The Company reserves the right to reduce the Commission/change the Reward Plan if:
    1. the Affiliate does not generate a minimum of 6 New Depositing Customers in a period of 3 months, except in markets where affiliate activity is restricted (e.g. Netherlands)
    • 2. The Company may terminate this Agreement immediately by written notice if:
    1. If the Affiliate does not generate any New Depositing Customers for a period of 6 months, except in markets where affiliate activity is restricted (e.g. Netherlands);
    Other changes:

    • Term 3.10, point 8: provided additional examples of how affiliates might seek to ‘alter monies payable to the Affiliate’
    • Term 3.10, point 13: added ‘regulatory requirements’
    • Term 6: Clarification on when and how to invoice Unibet Services Limited/Betchoice Corporation Pty Limited.
    Please carefully review these before accepting them to continue. An email has been sent to your registered email address, please take this opportunity to ensure we have your correct contact details on file.

    A copy of our previous Terms and Conditions is available upon request.

    Kind regards,

    Your Kindred Affiliates Team

    Another added to my 'fuck you' list. Funnily enough there wasn't a 'I do not agree' button, so I clicked the 'x' to close the message, will be interesting to see what they do as I 100% didn't accept the new terms.

    Presumably this will affect their status here?
     
  2. Mar 21, 2018
  3. Mark_32Red

    Mark_32Red Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos

    Occupation:
    Head of Marketing
    Location:
    32Red Marketing Dpt
    Hi Colin,

    I hope you are well.

    32Red isn’t yet integrated into the Kindred affiliate programme and I have limited knowledge of the changes, I did however get the email associated with the change and thought it might be useful for those reading to see part of the email regarding the start of a dialogue relating to the changes.

    Here is the relevant part from the email:

    What we are not doing:
    1) Closing any part of our affiliate program or reducing our commitment to work with affiliates to achieve sustainable growth and shared success.

    2) Automatically applying any changes to how you are currently rewarded. Communications relating to Terms 6.6 point 3. and 13.2 point 5. will form the starting point of a dialogue, not the end point.


    The email goes on to say to contact your affiliate manager with any concerns about the change. I’d suggest that’s a good starting point.

    Thanks
    Mark
     
  4. Mar 21, 2018
  5. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    With respect to Mark, it is a load of old rubbish to put it politely.

    Those existing customers were earned (perhaps by hard graft) and you are meant to have them for life on whatever commission they signed up through.

    You are shifting the goal posts, simple as.

    Why the negotiation? It is rogue behaviour in my opinion and shafting the affiliate attempting to put some bread on the table.
     
  6. Mar 21, 2018
  7. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    So if I contact my affiliate manager there won't be any quotas added to my account, or for that matter, any other affiliate? SkyVegas were put in the rogue pit for doing this exact thing.

    Given the numerous complaints about affiliate managers not replying to emails on other forums, will they actually reply if people do contact them?
     
  8. Mar 21, 2018
  9. Mark_32Red

    Mark_32Red Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos

    Occupation:
    Head of Marketing
    Location:
    32Red Marketing Dpt
    I can only suggest you drop them a mail and I am sure they will talk you through the process and options/future. I am not aware of complaints on forums regarding no response, if that happens I am more than happy to take a PM and see if I can assist.

    Regards
    Mark
     
  10. Mar 22, 2018
  11. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Saw this coming - but what can you do?

    Just yet another shafting - I guess you are supposed to get used to it after a while...
    Ladbrokes
    Grand Prive
    Bet Victor
    Sky Vegas
    10 Bet
    Paddy Power
    Club World
    Genting (this week)
    ... just some of the programs who have screwed their affiliates without so much as a "by your leave"... :mad:

    Yes, I'm sure Kindred will keep old deals... for the BIG BOYS.
    But us "small time Joe's"... I seriously doubt it :(
    I am quite willing to be pleasantly surprised - but I ain't holding my breath!

    KK
     
    PaaskeDenmark likes this.
  12. Mar 22, 2018
  13. PaaskeDenmark

    PaaskeDenmark Always think positive CAG PABnoaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Clerk with shipping discounts worldwide
    Location:
    UnKnown
    i emailed them exact thing back as reply on that email i received not had any quick responses from them no surprise :) As i was typing email on my mobile it messed up lot of words for me omg or else would had posted the email i sent but will give example later of reedited version :) But agree in all that absolute joke.

    I also received from Genting Affiliate shutting down now and will only pay out affiliate earnings for next 12 months and anything that is earned or refered from tomorrow will not count.

    PS i have wanted to post this for long time. Why is there no law protecting affiliates? Why do we not have a contract and termination clause that helps us? So like they would have to pay us an estimate of earnings for lifetime or at least something for certain amount of years.
     
    interlog likes this.
  14. Mar 22, 2018
  15. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    So, I missed this when I replied earlier, but when 32Red is integrated into Kindred, will the same terms apply to 32Red affiliates too?
     
  16. Mar 22, 2018
  17. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    My account is suspended this morning, for no activity apparently and not responding to an email I didn't get. Funny how that happens 12 hours after I post this.
     
    KasinoKing likes this.
  18. Mar 22, 2018
  19. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Have you seen: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/affiliate-union.83179/

    This COULD potentially change the landscape, IF enough affiliates get on board. We'll never know unless we try.
    I'm in!

    PS: This is another soon-to-be NOT Accredited group - now including 32Red as well! :eek:
    What are things coming to???

    KK
     
  20. Mar 22, 2018
  21. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    My Kindred account is now open again, to be fair the affiliate manager did respond very quickly.
     
    Mark_32Red likes this.
  22. Mar 22, 2018
  23. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    My affiliate manager responded very quickly too...

    I wrote a quite long, reasoning, polite & considered e-mail to "open the dialogue" as they put it in their mailer...
    His reply basically said - "I can't do anything - you HAVE to accept the new terms" :mad:
    Great.

    KK
     
  24. Mar 22, 2018
  25. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    Let us remind us again:

    "The email goes on to say to contact your affiliate manager with any concerns about the change. I’d suggest that’s a good starting point."

    Starting and finishing point more likely.
     
  26. Mar 22, 2018
  27. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Just an angle to consider:

    I have been talking to a lot of operators recently regarding compliance and the affect on the program. What I am hearing over and over is the word "relationship" and the dialogue above suggests that is the case here. Because of the way the UKGC have said the operator is responsible for their affiliates and the content they put up, I get the very real feeling that many operators want to work ONLY with affiliates that they know 100% they can trust to be compliant.

    That suggests to me that the operator and the affiliate will need more than just an "online" relationship as we move forward in regulated markets (of which there will be many more). I bet no-one here can really say they trust someone implicitly that a) they've never met and b) don't know much about their personality. If I was an operator who faced the prospect of a large fine or even a loss of licence over what someone I'd never met has or hasn't done, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want that risk.

    If I was still an affiliate, I'd be a) trying to arrange face-to-face time as much as I possibly could and b) I wouldn't be giving those programs any reason to think I'm difficult to work with. I've always worked off the notion that if i don't like the way I am being treated, I'll deal with it privately, in a non-confrontational way and face-to-face. I don't believe being confrontational gets you anything longer than a short-term win with long-term detriment. And it's human nature to be nicer to people you like. Personally, if I come across someone confrontational I do often give in: but I'll make a note never to do anything with them again. That's probably how many affiliate program managers and operators think too. Some people just aren't worth the hassle.

    Business relationships work best when both parties realise that the other side understands their position and a conversation takes place.

    There is a another problem too: not all affiliates are engaging with the compliance process in regulated markets and instead are waiting until they are told what they are doing wrong, rather than making the effort to find out. You just can't do that now. It's only going to take one affiliate issue to get found out by the ASA/UKGC and everyone's going to suffer - not just the operators. In fact, my guess is that's probably what is happening here: cut out the affiliates that don't respond and who aren't showing interest in a "relationship", before it's too late.

    My advice would be do as Mark says; get in contact, show you are willing, professional and compliant and work something out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  28. Mar 22, 2018
  29. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    But isn't that with KK did and he didn't get anywhere?
     
  30. Mar 22, 2018
  31. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Super post and I cannot reiterate enough what Simmo! says about the importance of face-to-face meetings too with aff. managers at the various conferences throughout the year. Another thing, whenever possible add them on Skype and maybe ask them to give your site a quick perusal of their particular banners and description. They'll soon put you right and it's also easier to be guided as well as showing willingness to comply as stated above.
     
  32. Mar 22, 2018
  33. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    But picking up the phone is only the start of the process. It's then down to the two parties to work out how it can work going forward. Everyone is different.

    Oh and it needn't always be about getting immediate results. You have to earn and build trust and I hope KK doesn't mind me saying, but he has been pretty *cough* ...'vocal'... on the forums at times ;) At the end of the day, people can only judge you only on what they see. The good thing is he also goes to the conferences so he has another (better!) angle. If he's never met Kindred, he can and like I say, you can't beat face-time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    KasinoKing likes this.
  34. Mar 22, 2018
  35. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    I agree in some ways however, not everyone can get to conferences. I can't.
    As far as communication, I have had NO communication from these apart from 'we are introducing quotas, agree or we close your account'. It wasn't even an email, just a pop up when I logged in. It has to go both ways, if an affiliate manager can't be bothered to email me personally, why should I make the effort to get in touch with them? My site has been compliant well before the ASA fines, I have had to make small changes since then due to the way certain programmes have interpreted things, but the rules have been there for years, problem was, lazy affiliate managers couldn't care less as long as the FTD's were coming in thick and fast. Look at my long running threads with Casumo and LeoVegas in particular where I was quoting rules well before any fines. Other casinos I attempted to engage with at the time, basically didn't care, and some still don't (AG Communications are one example where I've reported spam recently and they just told me to speak to the affiliate & use the unsubscribe button, after being told the unsubscribe doesn't work and the affiliate is using a fake email address).

    This whole situation has been brought about by lazy affiliate managers, and affiliates who couldn't be arsed to check the rules, or did and decided they shouldn't apply to them.
     
  36. Mar 22, 2018
  37. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Hi Colin. Perhaps consider tools like Skype video-chat as an alternative. Whatever you decide, I firmly believe it's important to find a way to make the relationship stronger. Typing emails, PM's etc or waiting for affiliate programs to contact you isn't enough anymore IMO. Be pro-active and let programs know you understand your compliance obligations. Ask them questions about what you need to do, show them what you have done and make them see that you are ahead of the game.

    If you're a small affiliate, explain how you work - I used to send an "Intro" document to all my affiliate managers when I started out explaining my ethos, how I worked, what I did and where I was aiming. It went down really well and many relationships started there.
     
    Mark_32Red likes this.
  38. Mar 23, 2018
  39. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Yes, and I will continue to be pretty vocal! Where I see an injustice, I will speak out.
    I am biting my tongue very hard right now - for a few days at least.

    My primary concern has always been seeing fair play and fair treatment of players above all else. Next comes fair treatment of affiliates.
    This predatory retroactive un-agreed change by Kindred is unacceptable to me and in conflict with Bryan's accreditation conditions.
    So where does that leave their 11 brands? Time will tell I guess...

    KK
     
    SpinUk and sapit222 like this.

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