kevinhopf vs Royal Vegas

[kevinhopf]

sorry abiut the above post

I will spend more time.. I would just like everyone t know I would have rather this not have happened but I realised because of the amount of money involved and the reponces I was getting I really didn't have a choice even now I would rather have a private conversation with the casino rep, where where this concern could be resolved as we are both happy.

I am not trying to run down the casino its just that there might be one or two employees that are putting they players money before the player. I am not sure.

I think most of the information to what occurred is now available if there is any questions let me know.

 

[brianmon]

The thing is though...

If a player makes a withdrawal of 29k, the first thing the casino is going to do is check the game play.
So they will have known for a fact that it was a progressive win, which AFAIK would be paid by MGS, after confirmation.

That 29k should have been held as pending if verification was needed, then paid IN FULL, NOT reversed back into to the account.

The money belonged to MGS initially, then after the win it became the property of the OP. It never at any stage belonged to the casino. It's not like a normal win, which would have come from the casino's 'kitty'

So the casino have either tried to delay paying the winnings to prop up their business or to help reseed the progressive, or tried to confuse and tempt the OP into playing it back.

And consequently, because of the casino's ineptitude or questionable 'practices'. I think the OP should be Paid in full, whether he played on or not

MGS have paid what has been fairly won, and the casino have lost nothing (apart from a nice 29k cash injection)

 

[kevinhopf]

what do i mean legit online casinos

I mean that all big payouts don't occur only small wins are paid because I feel all complaint like mine are hidden because if I am getting treated like this from a casino with a good rep one I could only emagine what the bigger winners went through, and if this is not so, then why was I picked on? Now the big question is, will I get paid or not? and if not, then everyone must ask themselves the question, If casino is willing to do that to a player and the player proves he has been wronged and still does not get paid then who even does pay and do you want to go through the same treatment when you win a large jackpot? Hear! here! is a fact, if I could have withdrawn the money don't think I would have withdrawn the whole amount or most of it and received it it by now!! if I thought I could accually withdraw it but I could not withdraw on my progressive win!! and thats a little shady to me! if never I see more then 5000 of my winnings this will prove to me no large payouts are paid because I would have been paid. please if any question I will be happy to answer. I am very confadant that I was truly wronged and feel no body will come up with anything I will not have a good answer to prove my case.

 

[kevinhopf]

I find it strange that i am give no advice or words of encouragement

as it seems most responces involve me being the bad guy and the casino being the victim. I find that very strange. The lack of words can speak volumes. Am I correct, time will tell. everyone can read the whole story and ask was a progressive winner treated like a progressive winner or a mark, a loser to be taken advantage of.

 

[Deeplay]

as it seems most responces involve me being the bad guy and the casino being the victim. I find that very strange. The lack of words can speak volumes. Am I correct, time will tell. everyone can read the whole story and ask was a progressive winner treated like a progressive winner or a mark, a loser to be taken advantage of.

I think as the Meister himself has advised best wait now for the casino rep to reply to this. I personally would heed his advise

 

[kevinhopf]

I have no more comments

I have also sent a screen shot of the payments made to microgaming that I have yet to receive.

 

[KasinoKing]

Now the big question is, will I get paid or not?

NOT - if YOU gambled the money away - the question you have been asked at least 10 times in this thread, but have refused to answer directly with a simple "Yes or No".

Also I STRONGLY advise you to STOP posting in this thread - the Casinomeister has given you a final warning to shut up for a bit and see what his investigation reveals - ignore him and you will soon find you are banned from the forum and that there is no-one else who can help you.

Casinomeister is THE best way to sort out disputes like this, bar none - it's best not to piss him off!

KK

 

[dunover]

I have also sent a screen shot of the payments made to microgaming that I have yet to receive.

OK, we get the picture by now. Can you please give any further information in instalments (small paragraphs) instead of a lump sum (1000-word diatribe.)

If the matter is in mediation via CM and the site, then try not to prejudice your case by ranting uncontrollably - yes, we can understand why you're pissed-off but impatience won't solve anything. Stand back a bit.

If the site has failed to pay a progressive in accordance with their terms, i.e. in one lump sum, then yes they have messed up. Payments of this magnitude mean your details will be thoroughly checked and this along with waiting for MG to verify the win and pay the casino means that payment may not be as quick as usual.

If funds were returned to your account whether in error re. above or not and YOU chose to play them back instead of being patient, there is no comeback at all.

So far having read this thread in stages (to prevent my eyes crazing over) I get the impression you HAVE played money back, are having gambler's remorse and are now hanging on the hope that because the casino erroneously applied a weekly w/d limit that somehow they should be held to account for your lack of control. If of course that you suspect that they did this deliberately thinking you would likely play it back, then that's another matter.

Either way IF you have played back any significant amount for whatever reason, it's not CM, the Casino or the posters in this thread you should be mad at, but yourself.

 

[everyday]

OK, we get the picture by now. Can you please give any further information in instalments (small paragraphs) instead of a lump sum (1000-word diatribe.)

If the matter is in mediation via CM and the site, then try not to prejudice your case by ranting uncontrollably - yes, we can understand why you're pissed-off but impatience won't solve anything. Stand back a bit.

If the site has failed to pay a progressive in accordance with their terms, i.e. in one lump sum, then yes they have messed up. Payments of this magnitude mean your details will be thoroughly checked and this along with waiting for MG to verify the win and pay the casino means that payment may not be as quick as usual.

If funds were returned to your account whether in error re. above or not and YOU chose to play them back instead of being patient, there is no comeback at all.

So far having read this thread in stages (to prevent my eyes crazing over) I get the impression you HAVE played money back, are having gambler's remorse and are now hanging on the hope that because the casino erroneously applied a weekly w/d limit that somehow they should be held to account for your lack of control. If of course that you suspect that they did this deliberately thinking you would likely play it back, then that's another matter.
Either way IF you have played back any significant amount for whatever reason, it's not CM, the Casino or the posters in this thread you should be mad at, but yourself.

The question that bothers me is that as players, we must follow the Terms & Conditions that we have agreed to and the casinos have every right to disallow withdrawals based on those terms, whether the error we made was intentional or not. But does not the same apply to casinos in their contract with Microgaming? I believe there are rules for casinos to follow regarding Progressive Jackpot wins, so why should they not be held accountable for their error whether it was intentional or not? Players are held to the strict letter of the law in the majority of "stupid mistakes" cases and suffer the loss of their winnings. I think casinos should be held to the same standard and suffer the loss for their mistakes as well.

I too suspect the OP gambled away the funds erroneously returned to his account but the series of errors in this case originated with the casino. I believe in the old saying "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

 

[interlog]

The question that bothers me is that as players, we must follow the Terms & Conditions that we have agreed to and the casinos have every right to disallow withdrawals based on those terms, whether the error we made was intentional or not. But does not the same apply to casinos in their contract with Microgaming? I believe there are rules for casinos to follow regarding Progressive Jackpot wins, so why should they not be held accountable for their error whether it was intentional or not? Players are held to the strict letter of the law in the majority of "stupid mistakes" cases and suffer the loss of their winnings. I think casinos should be held to the same standard and suffer the loss for their mistakes as well.

I too suspect the OP gambled away the funds erroneously returned to his account but the series of errors in this case originated with the casino. I believe in the old saying "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

That is all well and good, but had the OP doubled his 29,000 we wouldn't even know about this case. By your logic, should the OP then have returned the subsequent winnings he made?

 

[Jono777]

Agree with majority of the content of today's posts in this thread and some good points raised.

Now with relation to 'blame' for this whole scenario.....

Should it have been paid all in one go to avoid this whole instance ? -Looks like a yes ??

Should the funds have ever reappeared in the players account?? - Maybe not??

Should patience by the OP, even extended patience, especially for that sort of monies be applied whilst wrongs were righted ?? - I'd say definatley!!

Are casinos allowed to make mistakes ? ? - yes of course but ideally as long as every effort is made to put things right in a reasonable time frame.

Regardless of everything that has gone on...

Who clicked 'Spin' casino or player ? ? ? ? ?

 

[everyday]

That is all well and good, but had the OP doubled his 29,000 we wouldn't even know about this case. By your logic, should the OP then have returned the subsequent winnings he made?

If the OP had doubled his winnings, we would still know about this case. I'm sure the casino's payments and security departments would scrutinize that withdrawal prior to processing and void it.

My logic is to make everyone whole before the series of errors occurred. That means that the OP would receive his winnings in full as originally requested. Anything that occurred beyond that point, as an example, the player loses all the funds or happens to double his funds is disregarded.

 

[Harry_BKK]

My 2 cents

To be honest i lost most of my sympathy with the OP over the days.

Let's look at the facts:

- he won a progressive for about CAD 29k
- tried to withdraw it and the system won't let him do it (he said he cpuld only do 5k max) = first red flag as you can enter any amount in the withdrawal request and the payments team then looks at it. (Supported by the statement he posted where it shows larger amounts than 5k)
- CS tells him 5k max /week - at this point i would have read every line of their T&C's to see if CS is right; OP didn't! !!!!!
- at this same point i would not touch a single dollar of those funds until the mess is sorted, i have spoken to a support manager and the whole sum is paid
- balance minus 1 x 5k payment is credited back to his player account, he keeps playing and he is lucky & makes it to 35K as his statement shows.
- he submits more withdrawals which are all returned to his account because of the 5k rule
- another point where i would have stopped to sort out the whole mess
- he keeps playing, probably annoyed because he can't get the whole sum paid, and keeps doing so until the balance is gone
- now and only now in his desperation he takes the time to read all T&C' s and finds out about the rule exception for progressive wins
- now he wants his money back as he sees the casino at fault

Conclusions:

- did the casino make a mistake? - Yes, they should have paid him in one shot
- did the player make an even bigger mistake? - Absolutely YES - for such high amounts you just don't touch it any further until you get some clarification. And you simply just don't gamble a balance of 30k away without trying to sort it out first with the casino management.

At the end if the day you as a player and only you are responsible for your account balance.

Amen

 

[hhhelllo]

Maybe the op is french since he won in CAD and his english writing sounds like my french speaking friends.
This is still not an excuse for not answering questions directly and posting like a madmen after warnings by CM.

Good luck with that

 

[Deeplay]

Maybe the op is french since he won in CAD and his english writing sounds like my french speaking friends.
This is still not an excuse for not answering questions directly and posting like a madmen after warnings by CM.

Good luck with that

Yup he avoided to answer "one" of the main questions continually.


Did he gamble the funds back or not ?

Gamblers remorse as Dunover said.

And I personally have lost ALL sympathy with him. His attitude sucks. He gambled he lost - move on. Regardless of how the funds "re-appeared" in his account. But thats just speculation until the casino Rep gives some further insight on this.

 

[mina1929]

I cannot wait until we know exactly what has happened as all that confusing back and forth complaints from the op has been doing my head in. lol

It's an interesting story to follow though and I can't help it, I am curious about the outcome. Very strange case the op as he didn't answer some of the questions that has been asked repeatedly. (just ignored)

He even sent me a private message after my last post all in block letters

I actually feel sorry for him as he seems to be a troubled individual and not a clue about a lot of things. Only going on his stories so far that needs to be decoded and pieced together as its all over the place.

 

[KasinoKing]

Yup he avoided to answer "one" of the main questions continually.

Did he gamble the funds back or not ?

After my last post (#82) he sent me a PM which just said "no" (I did not gamble it all back)...
But he still didn't say if he gambled ANY proportion of it back.
The truth will out eventually.
We'll just have to be patient as see... :Read:

KK

 

[fortunelounge]

Hi everyone

My apologies for the late and long reply but it did take some time to do a full analysis on the account and large number of communications on this issue.

Here are the fact regarding this issue;

The player won a progressive of $29 471.74 on 28 September. He withdrew $15 050 later on the same day.
He then started playing with the remaining balance of $14 421.74
On the same day we requested verification documents from him and we received some documents on 30 September, some on 5 October and the final batch on 7 October.
We, however, refunded his account with $15050 on 6 October (this is after a week and when we still did not have all the documents) and this was confirmed with him during a chat on the same day. When the $15050 was returned to his casino account the balance on the account was 85 cents and he was left with $15050.85.

As so much time elapsed since he won the progressive and kevinhopf continued to play with the refunded funds, the system did not recognize it as a progressive win and the $5000 rule was applied.

After receiving all his documents we attempted to pay him the first payment of $5000 on 9 October but it failed due to incorrect information being entered on the Preferred Method of Payment. After we rectified the information a second attempt was made on the same day to pay the amount and payment was successful.
The agent that kevinhopf spoke to on did say that two payments were made but she saw both attempts and did not realize that the first attempt, due to the details captured on the preferred method of payment, was unsuccessful.
By the time the payment was made there was only $5 243.96 left in the account. After making the payment, only $243.96 remained in his account.

Progressives are paid in full and are not subjected to the 5000 credit per week rule. The reality, however, is even if the progressive was paid in full by the time we made the payment, the only amount we could have paid was $5 243.96 because that was all that was left in his account.

kevinhopf was aware that he did not withdraw the full progressive amount and that we returned the withdrawal to his casino account. He was also aware that we were applying the $5000 a week payment rule and did not have any issues with it until he realized that he only received the one $5000 payment.

In an earlier post he mentions withdrawals of $15 050, $7060 and $13850. These are withdrawals made on the reversed amounts he played with and which we also reversed to his account because of the $5000 rule. These withdrawals happened before the $5000 was paid to his account. As stated before there was only $243.95 remaining in his account when the payment was made.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

As kevinhopf lodged a complaint with the MGA at the same time he started this thread we will, unfortunately, not be able to continue replying here until the matter has been concluded.

Regards

Wim
Fortune Lounge

 

[hhhelllo]

I don't know who's worst... The casino that keeps doing mistakes on purpose on the problematic player that burns 30 K when this amount could have changed his life.

 

[Ntarvi]

No conclusion yet - it's still ongoing.

It's not 100% clear from all the rants and raves exactly what happened, but it sounds like the player won a big progressive jackpot, had problems withdrawing the money, and instead of working with the casino to sort out the issue and get the money - he just gambled it all away (less the $5,000 he was paid), claiming he "had no idea where the money in his casino account had come from"

One of the strangest cases I have ever read on CM!

KK

Hmm...hope he didn`t spend them.. think it could say casino to hold their money.. Otherwise I don`t understand what purpose he follows.. Don`t think he wanted to spend the winning amount for meaningess game.. As he won, I thinks he is not a newbie and knows than better to withdrawal his money as soon as tit possible.. Even I know..

 

[Casinomeister]

I don't know who's worst... The casino that keeps doing mistakes on purpose on the problematic player that burns 30 K when this amount could have changed his life.

What evidence is there that the casino made a mistake on purpose? Please clarify.

 

[hhhelllo]

You are absolutely right.... There is no evidence. It just sounds wrong. I am sorry about my comment.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Hi everyone
Progressives are paid in full and are not subjected to the 5000 credit per week rule. The reality, however, is even if the progressive was paid in full by the time we made the payment, the only amount we could have paid was $5 243.96 because that was all that was left in his account.

kevinhopf was aware that he did not withdraw the full progressive amount and that we returned the withdrawal to his casino account. He was also aware that we were applying the $5000 a week payment rule and did not have any issues with it until he realized that he only received the one $5000 payment.

In an earlier post he mentions withdrawals of $15 050, $7060 and $13850. These are withdrawals made on the reversed amounts he played with and which we also reversed to his account because of the $5000 rule. These withdrawals happened before the $5000 was paid to his account. As stated before there was only $243.95 remaining in his account when the payment was made.
Regards

Wim
Fortune Lounge

Thank you Wim for the clarification, more or less what we thought and/or suspected.

Another OP coming to the forum and posting only half of the story and asking for help. ... and wasting our time

 

[Deeplay]

As suspected the OP in the end decided to play down funds that were in his account. Sure the casino made the error of not recognizing it as a progressive but seems they communicated fully to the OP during this time. I know if I had won such an amount and documents were requested I would have made sure these would have been in place ASAP. And not a chance I would have continued to play not even 1 cent with such a win.

The op continually dodged the all important question of did he spunk it all back into the casino which is now clear he did. Hard lesson to learn for sure! But can not blame anyone else but the OP for HIM deciding to press that button and place a bet. An annoying run around by the casino for sure but don't think they did it with intent. And not one that would have held up the payment in the end. My view only.

 

[kevinhopf]

rushed rebuttle and be sure i never new how much i truely ever had!!!

My apologies for the late and long reply but it did take some time to do a full analysis on the account and large number of communications on this issue.

Here are the fact regarding this issue;

The player won a progressive of $29 471.74 on 28 September. He withdrew $15 050 later on the same day.
---I called in regards to the win and that if i needed nto give any more information i was told no.
-- and it was also menttion to me that the mmeny woukld be made in payments of 5000 per week.
He then started playing with the remaining balance of $14 421.74
---correct and i still had totaal control over my account
----and yes that is correct as the whole amount would have be withdrawn but the casino did not allow me to enter in the whole amount also the casino told me i was under the 5000 per week rule in a progressive win which they were fully aware of.

On the same day we requested verification documents from him and we received some documents on 30 September, some on 5 October and the final batch on 7 October.

yes on the very day being 3 days after in which i call three times the first 2 times i was put on hold so long ui hung up the last time i called i begged to not be put on hold there was something thaat had occured in my account to cause me to call in which i was conserned --

---also i sent my picture ID a bill and the front and back of my credit card..





We, however, refunded his account with $15050 on 6 October (this is after a week and when we still did not have all the documents) and this was confirmed with him during a chat on the same day. When the $15050 was returned to his casino account the balance on the account was 85 cents and he was left with $15050.85.

0- the casino kept asking for documents and if i was not yet verifieed why would they put it into a person who is unverified


As so much time elapsed since he won the progressive and kevinhopf continued to play with the refunded funds, the system did not recognize it as a progressive win and the $5000 rule was applied


---- rule was told to me right from the start! or i would have withdrawn it all at once !!
and no the system still saw it as a progressive win bcecause it alloowed mme to still withdraw any amount i wanted to!!!

After receiving all his documents we attempted to pay him the first payment of $5000 on 9 October but it failed due to incorrect information being entered on the Preferred Method of Payment. After we rectified the information a second attempt was made on the same day to pay the amount and payment was successful0


know that i was never aware of this fact and niether were the reps aware of this or were not admitting to being aware if this because in chat i had with a rep it was said that there were two payment made of 5000 each and this was known because when they reversed the last time in which i did not request the reversal except for the 300 i withdrew not even 10 hours befor seperatly from the rest of the cash which had been withdrawn days befor and it was not untill the 23rd oct as i was was sending emails and chatting .to the where abouts of the 5000

The agent that kevinhopf spoke to on did say that two payments were made but she saw both attempts and did not realize that the first attempt, due to the details captured on the preferred method of payment, was unsuccessful.


how could she not be aware of it i made a big deal about it because i could not withdraw the five thosand and she said it was sso that means she had to ssee a second 50000 dollars as processed and i should have also had a record that the first payment fail and there was 5000 being poroceassed By the time the payment was made there was only $5 243.96 left in the account. After making the payment, only $243.96 remained in his account.

Progressives are paid in full and are not subjected to the 5000 credit per week rule. The reality, however, is even if the progressive was paid in full by the time we made the payment, the only amount we could have paid was $5 243.96 because that was all that was left in his account.

kevinhopf was aware that he did not withdraw the full progressive amount and that we returned the withdrawal to his casino account. He was also aware that we were applying the $5000 a week payment rule and did not have any issues with it until he realized that he only received the one $5000 payment.

In an earlier post he mentions withdrawals of $15 050, $7060 and $13850. These are withdrawals made on the reversed amounts he played with and which we also reversed to his account because of the $5000 rule. These withdrawals happened before the $5000 was paid to his account. As stated before there was only $243.95 remaining in his account when the payment was made.

you are incorrect as the systejm was not the thing that was not allowing me to withdraw it what the casino employees. do you think 9i would have left that money in the account if i thought i would ever beable to withdraw it!! i asked another casino about just such a thing here is the thread it is a microgaming casino:
To celebrate our 15th birthday, Casino Rewards is giving away $15 Million over 10 weeks in the $15 Million Giveaway - ask me for more information on how to grab your share!

You are now chatting with Caitlin.

Caitlin: Welcome to the Casino Rewards support chat. How can I help you today?

you: ii was wondering if a payment has been processed and a player has been verified can the processed withdrawal be reversed

Caitlin: Yes you can reverse a cashin

you: no I asked a=can an already processed withdrawal be reversed\

you: having a legit claim on the money

Caitlin: It has already been sent out to you? May I please have your account number?

you: yes

you: vgmr0165015103

Caitlin: Thank you One moment please

you: I just want to kow how progressives get payed out if I were to win

Caitlin: I am sorry, I am unsure as to what you mean. You do not have a withdrawal?

you: i know i don't i am wondering the rules if i were to wi

you: win

you: i think its implrtANT INFORMATION IF I WERE TO WIN THAT KIND OF CASH SO I WILL NOT RUN INTO ANY PROBLEMS

you: sorry about caps

you: accedent

Caitlin: The withdrawal will go into pending for 48 hours, and then be sent out to your preferred method of payment. We may ask for verification documents to process this.

Caitlin: It's okay.

you: so what if i did not have correct documents

you: at the beginning and you requested them

Caitlin: You would need photographic ID, a proof of address, and also the copy of what what used to make the deposit.

you: and i was able to provide them

Caitlin: You have these?

Caitlin:

you: what if i did not supply them quick enough would the transaction be put back into the casino account

Caitlin: It is put back into the casino account if it is in pending for 30 days.

you: till the docuents were verified or would you wait until the verifacation

Caitlin: It is put back into the casino account if it is in pending for 30 days.

you: now if any bets aree made on that progressive winning woud that vouid the payment in one lump sum

you: void

Caitlin: You mean if you bet with your winnings?

Caitlin:

you: after it was put back into the account and if so to you inform the player that they should not spen any of it or loose the lump sum pauyment

you: yes4

you: yes if i bet with the winning put back unto the account

Caitlin: I am sorry I do not understand your question.

you: and then only be payed out in sums of 5000 per week

you: ok if i won and the money was put back into my casino account and i played some of the cash would that void the lump payment

Caitlin: This rule doesn't apply to progressive wins.

you: causein it to only be payed out in 5000 per week sums

Caitlin: No, it wouldn't.

you: ok cool cause i did win at another casino you are not affiliated with and they are trying to screw me out of a legit amate winnings

you: royal vegas

Caitlin: I am sorry to hear that.

you: it could be getting cleared up now i had received two payment of winningh pryer to winning jackpot

Caitlin: I am sorry to hear you are having difficulties, you will be able to read more about us in the terms and conditions of the casino.

you: i asked on the day of the win is there any more information you need i called them andchatted i was very very diligent in asking them if there was anything else and i was not informed that o would need anything else

you: then 3 days later my withdrawel was reversed

Caitlin: Our withdrawals go into pending for 2 business days, and we can tell you how long it should be until you expect to receive this. If it is any longer, please contact us and we will be able to tell you why.

you: so i called them up and they said they needed paperwork then tod me the progressive was no longer considered on time pay out when i gambled a bit and say i was under a 5000 a week pay out

Caitlin: I see.

you: accuallly thy hadc said this in the very first day that i was under a 50900 per week payout

you: 5000 per week

you: i later was going through there terms and conditions and found out that progressives don't apply

you: i looked in my account and i had all verification identified 1qand three payment totaling 35800 dollars all processed but i had only received 5000

Caitlin: You can read our full terms and conditions here

Caitlin: Terms and Conditions

you: i contacted econgra and put in a complaint

Caitlin: Thanks for holding. I'll be right with you.

you: so i feel i have a good case do you think i have a rteasonable dispute if it may go that far?

Caitlin: I am sorry I cannot make a comment on a case that has happened in another casino.

you: a progressive pay out is a progressive payout out it does not mtter if someone gambles some of it it still can be payed in a lumo sum correcty

you: thankyou for the information it was very helpful

Caitlin: You're welcome Can I help you with anything else?