Kahnawake Gaming Commission and UB/Absolute Poker

[threescatters]

Editor's Note: this thread was split from this one:
Link Outdated / Removed

Not sure I follow, can you elaborate?

Well they are one of the most corrupt and joke regulators in our industry imo. You only have to look at the AP/UB scandals to see that they dont care and they look after their own, even if their own are stealing tens of millions from the players. I am sure you dont need me to elaborate on that but if you do then I will.

They have been recently trying to pretend to be on the players side by doing what they so proudly were shouting at this ICE thing (the report about them resolving 80% of players complaints in the players favour). I just find this lol given their history. People like them and AP/UB are exactly why legit casinos get a bad name and cant get regulated in places like the USA, we need their sort out of the industry for good.

 

[jetset]

I have been watching the KGC closely for the past two and some years because I was a strong critic of their performance as one of the biggest regulators in the industry.

I was initially sceptical that they could change their unresponsive ways and become a more player-friendly and effective jurisdiction, but I have to say I agree with Max's assessment that there has been a substantial improvement in both commitment and action, with the present board actively involved, responsive and clearly determined to maintain a revitalised fair and efficient regulatory structure.

These guys are serious, and a growing number of their licensees are on board, recognising the need for real regulation in a changing industry.

I think if you travelled to industry events and interacted with them on their stand (they're quite prepared to have a conversation with anyone who stops by) it would perhaps help you in better assessing their approach.

As far as I can see, there is no smoke and mirrors about their dispute stats - those are hard figures and represent a commitment to fairness not just by the KGC, but by the licensees who have to accept the decisions of the dispute mediator - who btw is a highly respected formed operator who ran one of the best online casinos groups in the business at one time.

As to the AP/UB issue; they were slow off the blocks initially, but if you follow the issue's history they eventually got it right and not only secured payments amounting to tens of millions of dollars, but also levied very heavy fines on the offending operator.

I guess it is inevitable for critics to remain convinced that an entity is incapable of change and is perpetrating some huge sort of con job, but in this case...and in my opinion based on both observation and interaction ... the KGC has made serious and honest changes to the benefit of the industry and the player, and is proving its intent by its actions.

I hope that they continue to do so, because that is a very positive development for us all.

 

[maxd]

Well they are one of the most corrupt and joke regulators in our industry imo. You only have to look at the AP/UB scandals to see that they dont care ....

I respectfully suggest you need to clean your classes and take another look. For the last few years there has been a new management team in place and they've made HUGE steps toward changing a lot of that history you speak of. The bottom line AFAIC is that you're talking about the old Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) -- and what you've said was perfectly appropriate for things back then -- not the new KGC which is a whole different story.

Trust me, there were no bigger sceptic about this KGC make-over than I, but the fact is that they're doing great things and have been for a couple years now. It may be hard to accept that things have changed, I totally understand that, but change they have. If you don't believe me then file a PAB on any KGC licensed property and I guarantee you that your case will be handled swiftly, fairly and professionally. Go on, do it now! All you've got to lose is your preconceptions.

Here's a fact: over the past two years KGC casinos have produced the lowest number of PABs per casino of any licensing body. And they've got the best complaints response team of anyone in the business should I have a PAB issue that I need to take to them. That's no coincidence! As we've said elsewhere, quality service like this doesn't happen by accident.

As to the AP/UB situation we have data that shows that over 700 non-US cases were resolved by them this past year, most of them player payouts. There are about 300 US cases in the works. If you want more detail I can probably get it but the accusation that they are doing nothing is simply unfounded and unfair.

In fact I'll go so far as to say this: failing to recognize the changes the KGC has made and the quality of service they now offer actually encourages other licensing agents to carry on with business as usual, however bad that may be. Try taking a complaint to Cyprus or Malta or the Netherlands Antilles licensing people. Then you'll learn what crappy, dead-end service really is. If the efforts the KGC people have gone to mean nothing then what incentive is there for the other guys to ever change? None, and they won't, because they don't have to.

At the KGC you've got a highly capable and dedicated Complaints Officer who has handled a few thousand cases in the past couple years since she came on board and the majority of those resulted in full resolutions with the player. You've also got a management team fully committed to turning things around and supporting that Complaints Officer.

If I was in trouble with a casino today I'd hope it was KGC licensed because if it was I'd have very good reason to believe that I'd get a fair and speedy resolution.

 

[threescatters]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replys, sorry if I offended anyone with my comments or derailed the thread.

I'll reply later, it will be a detailed reply where I cite some sources etc as I feel I need to show my point somehow

Taken everything thats been said on board tho.


threescatters.

 

[threescatters]

Hi Guys,

Well I guess I sparked a debate, one in which I am in a minority in. I hope to at least show here why I believe what I wrote before, and that they did not do everything claimed of them.

Ok so reading above it seems there has been a change of personnel and attitude at the KGC. The change of personnel I had no idea about before I read this morning I will be honest. We will start with the old KGC, which it seems we are vastly in agreement about having been awful. However I will have to disagree with the following.

As to the AP/UB issue; they were slow off the blocks initially, but if you follow the issue's history they eventually got it right and not only secured payments amounting to tens of millions of dollars, but also levied very heavy fines on the offending operator.

Being a poker player I have followed this issue extremely closely since I had an argument with UB security team in 2005 when I used to play there.

Let us start with this thread here, which compiles everything into a nice summary

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A key point from early on in the first post of that thread

"Ultimate Bet is owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, a privately owned company that also owns and operates Absolute Poker.

Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG is run by Joe Norton, the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake. Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker are overseen and licensed by the “independent” Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission is a regulatory arm of the Mowhawk Indian tribe in Canada"

As you can see through Joe Norton the Kahnawake gaming commission and UB/AP are linked anyway from the start. Not exactly an independant and fair regulator for starters.

Next up Jetset you said they were "slow off the blocks initially".

If you read the link above, you will see AP/UB absolutely flat out denied any wrongdoing despite overwhelming and absolutely undeniable evidence of the cheating going on. Despite this evidence the KGC did nothing when pressed either, backing the sites all the way. Funny that because when the "break" came and the hand history was accidently sent out by AP itself they found this about the suspicious account looking at the players hole cards.

"The e-mail address and IP address linked to #363 was the same as that of another observer using the e-mail address scott@rivieraltd.com, the owner of which was allegedly Absolute Poker co-founder Scott Tom.

Further investigations revealed that rivieraltd.com’s mail server IP (66.212.244.147) was allocated to Absolute Entertainment SA at Mohawk Internet Technologies data center (po12.dr4.kdca.mohawk.ca. Two hours after this discovery was posted on twoplustwo the DNS information at rivieraltd.com had been deleted. Tracks were being covered.

Mohawk.ca should also sound familiar to those of you paying attention so far. To refresh your memory:

Quote:
Ultimate Bet is owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG , a privately owned company that also owns and operates Absolute Poker .
Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG is run by Joe Norton, the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission is the regulatory arm of the Mohawk Indian tribe in Canada.

The superuser account that cheated and stole money on Absolute Poker was being operated by Absolute Poker's founder and it also had direct ties to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission and Ultimate Bet. It was no wonder why Absolute Poker tried to cover up the cheating.
"

When they were eventually forced to admit to the cheating thanks to the overwhelming evidence the following things happened.

1) The KGC only released superuser names that the players had found themselves, long after the fact. They did absolutely nothing to further the investigation

2) They named Russ Hamilton as the perpetrator but refused to name the other superusers (these are starting to come out now). They claimed legal action was taken on all those guilty but when pressed refused to name exactly what who or how.

3) The refunds were hugely inadequate. Tournament players were not refunded (many superuser accounts won seats to aruba for one), Closed accounts were not refunded, Accounts on skins such as the hugely popular pokershare were not refunded, Fixed Limit players were not refunded properly, Rich players would not notice the difference were not refunded - specifically Ben Affleck was one of these. Hand historys were promised but not provided, almost certainly because these refunds were inadequate and there was the 2nd type of cheating going on that they did not want outed. They paid back far less than the minimum acceptable, taking everything they thought they could get away with.

4) They promised at the time that there was a complete change of management going forward and no former owners were involved. We now know this to be a complete lie from the black friday indictments (Scott Tom).

5) As already mentioned they promised full hand historys to everyone affected. Given all the issues I have talked about above it will come as no surprise that this was a lie and they never made good on this promise.

these issues were investigated by Haley Hintz here

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(read the "just conjuncturin" posts) as well as a lot more in depth on the coverup/ownership of the site.

Sorry for the long winded start of the post but I hope you can see jetset the KGC never has from then until now "got it right". If they got it right then

1) The guilty parties would all have been named, this has never happened
2) Everybody who was cheated would have received a FULL refund, this has nowhere near happened.
2) Complete hand histories would have been provided for everyone, to check the refund process was done correctly , this has never happened
3) All former owners and those involved in the cheating would have been removed from ownership/management. Not only was this not done but it was actively lied about right up until black friday.

If you disagree about any of this I invite you to read Haleys blog that I have linked and forthcoming book on the subject. I think most of us are in agreement that the "old" KGC were bad however, so onto the new.

First of all about the "new" KGC I have no idea when this change in personnel happened so I am not sure what time period to start from. I will just go with the most recent and most obvious.

As already stated the KGC right up until black friday claimed no former owners/management were involved with Cereus. This was proven a lie in the black friday indictments

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when Scott Tom was named. How can a safe operator lie about (or allow the places it is regulating to openly lie) who is running/owning them? I thought it was a requirement of all major regulators that nobody with a criminal background gets a gaming licence? Scott Tom was proven (by the players, NOT the KGC) to be the absolute poker cheat just a few years previous.

Even if they did not know that then this is a regulator that allowed the sites to steal from player funds

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We see here that cereus was allowed by the KGC to have a near 50 million shortfall from what it owed to what cash it had on hand. It is no wonder nobody is getting paid out from cereus. This situation was clearly under the "new" khanawake gaming comissions control. They can force some online casinos to pay out in 80% of disputes but the reality is they let the sites take any liberties they want with your money. I cannot see how this is a regulator thats turned a new leaf? Nobody was regulating them and they were clearly doing whatever they wanted with player money.

My apologies that this post is not quite all I hoped it would be (I am tired!) but thanks for reading. I have taken everything thats been said on board. I just cannot comprehend how any regulator worth their salt lets a big poker site have 55 million in player accounts but only 5 million cash. Coupled with the lying about the owners and past history I still feel this is a regulator giving the industry a bad name.

I should also so I believe in 2nd chances and that people/companies can turn over a new leaf. We all learn from mistakes. However if you are turning over a new leaf you should also deal with what you did wrong in the past. I think it is policy here that old legitimate PAB's have to be dealt with if a casino is going to be accreditted again? Thats a great rule. Unfortunately the KGC has never made good on the past of UB/AP

One last thing I forgot to mention is that for the last few months Cereus has not paid ANYONE (even the occasional 250s have stopped)

Yet you can still log in and deposit and play. Your money going into a black void.

What legitimate regulator would allow this? Surely their licence should have been revoked? They are bankrupt, not paying players and not speaking to anyone yet KGC will still allow you to deposit there?

Alderney for all their failings pulled the plug on FTP when it was clear they were bankrupt to stop any unsuspecting players depositing in there.

Clearly, proper regulation of AP/UB is not a concern of the current KGC.

 

[maxd]

Thank you for the detailed post. It certainly sounds like there are some issues here that need looking into. Unfortunately I am still trying to dig myself out from under a PAB backlog and just don't have the time to pursue those issues at this time. That said it is, as you may have guessed, a subject of particular interest to me and I hope to get back to this soon. Until then ... threescatters has suggested that this KGC derail needs to be split off into its own thread and I agree. That too will have to wait a bit but yes, I think a thread split is in order.

 

[jetset]

I don't think there is any difference of opinion on the past history of the KGC, which seems to be the main thrust and content of your post, threescatters - there were a number of things they could have done a lot better in the AB/UB scandal, and that is pretty much common cause here.

That said, imo we should not be blinded by the past to the positives of the present and future, or decry the punitive measures that the KGC eventually took; the remedial measures they embarked on after expert advice following the debacle; the aid they have rendered players since; or of the possibility that they may have been kept in the dark on some elements by the operator - look to Alderney for a similar sort of embarrassment, audits notwithstanding.

Nor should that incident detract from the solid work that the KGC has done more recently in fixing its flaws, introducing a player dispute system that works well, improving communication with the player community and tightening up on both operator conduct and problem gambling exclusion systems.

Not too many regulators are performing to the same level in those spheres, as Max has commented.

I think there is also a danger here of bludgeoning the regulator with the sins of the real culprits in the UB/AB scandal. They may have been dilatory, but they were not the people screwing the players, and they've made a substantial contribution in sorting out the mess to the benefit of players since.

Years ago I was asking the same questions (as opposed to making firm assertions) posed in this thread regarding the relationship and influence of Joe Norton and Tokwiro Enterprises vis-a-vis the KGC, and how the deal that enabled Tokwiro to acquire its lucrative if crooked poker assets was financially structured. I was, and I guess I still am, still frustrated with the paucity of proven evidence that has so far been disclosed.

In the nature of things, the full nefarious detail will probably emerge at some point, but in the meantime I am more concerned with the present and what the KGC is doing in the here and now to make the players' lot safer and the industry a more respected space.

I, too have read Haley Hintz and other sources extensively in a bid to definitively discover who was really behind the UB/AB scenes; and like many others I ranted against the failure of all involved to name and shame the crooks who prejudiced so many players - I always thought that the rationale that the police were investigating the issue and that the names had been passed to them was more than a little lame, particularly when nothing seemed to come of it.

I think your post does highlight some valid questions related to more recent times, such as the current interaction between Cereus, the KGC and the DoJ on the reportedly large sums of money seized in the Black Friday action; the consequences of that and its impact on Cereus; the success (or not - depending on your perception) of the KGC in getting hundreds of players paid, with more in the pipeline; and the pros and cons of revoking or suspending a licence or hanging in there in order to maintain leverage over the poker operator concerned and get payments made.

However, it is not my job or desire to defend the KGC, nor have I the time or information available so to do, so I will conclude here by reiterating that I believe from my own experiences already detailed in this thread that the KGC has made significant and concrete improvements and appears intent on maintaining the momentum

In my opinion the folks behind that significant change of approach to regulation deserve acknowledgement, having lifted their standards of player care above less-attentive jurisdictions out there.

I stand on that.

 

[jetset]

Thank you for the detailed post. It certainly sounds like there are some issues here that need looking into. Unfortunately I am still trying to dig myself out from under a PAB backlog and just don't have the time to pursue those issues at this time. That said it is, as you may have guessed, a subject of particular interest to me and I hope to get back to this soon. Until then ... threescatters has suggested that this KGC derail needs to be split off into its own thread and I agree. That too will have to wait a bit but yes, I think a thread split is in order.

I agree.

 

[threescatters]

Wow great post jetset, cant argue with that, my hat is off.

 

[maxd]

Wow great post jetset, cant argue with that, my hat is off.

+1

 

[Jennifer]

All of these companies are complete scum. I dont even think UB exists anymore. I used to be an avid online poker player but I quit after all the scandals. I used to play on fulltilt a tonne, now look at them? The players have been left hanging, the company broke and people up on all kinds of charges.

I was one of the victimes of the potripper super user scandal and I never got paid a dime even though I had proof and hand histories I was taken for in cash games. Kahnwake didnt do much. They gave them a fine and put them pn probation. Hello! The company just cheated millions of players!

So anywho, I closed my account with absolute poker and they sent me an email confirming it. I told them to make sure my deposits were locked etc etc. About 30 days later my account was hacked and a deposit was made on my credit card and dumped all over the site. The hacker played 100% of all hands and went all in. Lucky for me my credit card at the time only had a $2000 limit. Needless to say Absolute poker were at complete fault here.

They refused to take care of the situation and repay the stolen funds. I called the fraud department on my credit card and they did thei rinvestigation. The conclusion was someone from Nigeria made a deposit and absolute poker confirmed the IP address. During the investigation, I spoke to the kahnwake gaming commission. They investigated and didnt do a thing. They told me there was nothing I can do. Are you serious? Given all the information and findings, you still wont do anything?

So my credit card did a chargeback or whatever its called. Even though AP admitted I was scammed and it was their fault by not actually closing the account, they sent ,y bill to an aggressive creditor. I had a lot of work to do but after some time, the creditors were contacted by my cc company and given all the proof. They apologized and made sure it wasnt put on my credit report.

So ya, they (are?) were! scummy.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I was on the first "player's panel" that Bryan did at the LAC, and the topic of Kahnawake was raised, and they had a rep in the room. At the end, the Kahnawake rep came up to the panel to "clarify" the panel's rather negative view of how effective they were at being a regulator. A short while later, we had "new Kahnawake", launched with the appointment of an external and very experienced compliance officer, and a revamp of the complaints handling process. This may have been coincidence, but maybe hearing this view aired by a player at the LAC prompted them to rethink how they did business. Since then, they have come out with the most player friendly decisions I have ever seen coming from such a body, many of which don't even deal with individual player complaints. They had applied for UK whitelist status, but were rejected. This could have been another motive for them to change, as acceptance to the UK whitelist would have allowed their licensees full access to UK and some EU markets. After they were rejected, many of their licensees moved to Malta, even though this meant they would no longer be allowed to accept US players (officially, that is ).

Malta have decided to model themselves on "old Kahnawake", and have demonstrated no real committment to change. They got on the whitelist simply because Malta is part of the EU, rather than because they were considered better than Kahnawake.

In my view, players are MUCH better protected when playing at a Kahnawake licensed casino than at one licensed by most EU jurisdictions.

I hope this continues.

It is clear that Kahnawake send reps to ICEi and the LAC, so are available for anyone who wants to have a face to face chat. Contrast this with RTG, who just can't be bothered any longer, yet are one of the major software suppliers, and have many operators using their product.

It's possible that some earlier issues remain unresolved, and maybe review and clarification is needed so that closure can be obtained by those affected.

 

[jetset]

The best closure for screwed players is to get paid imo - let's hope that the KGC continues to make headway in that mission.

 

[Casinomeister]

I don't understand why they aren't white-listed by the UK Gaming Commission. The last time I checked, the Queen was still profiled on Canadian currency.

 

[threescatters]

For the "old" KGC I would like to see

1) Full discloure of who did the cheating, and the passing of the evidence onto relevant authorities

2) Complete refunds. This includes Fixed Limit players, accounts that were cheated out of money and closed afterwards, tournaments players, and those passed up for other reasons.

3) Complete lifetime hand historys for anyone who requests them. This is a big one, and sadly will never happen IMO.

For the "new" KGC I would like to see.

1) Them to shut down the current UB/AP sites. They are bankrupt, have no withdrawl options and are still accepting deposits. They are allowing unsuspecting players to deposit into a void. This is unethical and wrong, I cant believe they are ignoring this.

2) Them to explain why they allowed UB/AP to have such a shortfall of player money. Reports at subject poker suggest they had as little as 10% of it on black friday. That is completely unacceptable and I think players deserve an explanation of why this was allowed, even if the end result is "theres no money".

3) Them to explain why Scott Tom was still allowed to be an owner, when it was constantly promised no such thing was happening.

Only in an ideal world would all of these happen, but I think it is a reasonable list of requests.

threescatters.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don't understand why they aren't white-listed by the UK Gaming Commission. The last time I checked, the Queen was still profiled on Canadian currency.

I suspect "politics" played a part. They approved Tazmania, but I have not seen any online casinos licensed there, so my suspicion is that the inclusion of Tazmania was again "political", so that they couldn't be accused of only allowing EU jurisdictions on the list.

The KGC will have to overcome pressure from the US, who do not recognise it as a country in it's own right, and therefore not legally allowed to license anything. Canadian authorities have already tried to shut down the KGC's ability to host online gaming sites that accept Canadian players, again on the grounds that Kahnawake is simply a territory that is legally part of Canada, and subject to Canadian law. Other native territories have objected to the KGC licensing online operations because they didn't think of it first, and the KGC have cornered the market.

If the KGC can overcome these political obstacles, they should reapply to the UK Gaming Commission, who are happy to have Malta on board, but not the KGC. Experienced players will see right through any further rejection of "new KGC" as the "stitch up" of the EU market that it most likely is, and expect a proper explanation for the rejection.

In any case, the UK are consulting on making changes to the current scheme, and this could (with any luck) have unfortuate consequences for Malta's useless LGA.


The former KGC were not the only regulator caught asleep on the job, Alderney have also been ambushed by the more recent collapse of three poker operators, one at least of which was found to have breached the rules that Alderney were supposed to have been enforcing.

The problem with minor territories licensing online operations is that they need the income, and may have a conflict of interest when it comes to shutting errant operations down. I doubt many have much in the way of money in Kahnawake that could be frozen, the best the KGC can do is fine them, and hope they will pay up rather than jump ship to another territory as Grand Prive did when the KGC decided to act over their failure to inform them of the change of software. I doubt Grand Prive ever paid the fine, as they moved to another territory over which the KGC had no influence. The KGC also lost future income from the group.

 

[jetset]

I suspect that it may be the Quebec provincial government that could be putting a spoke in the KGC wheel when it comes to white list recognition. The Kahnawake Mohawk enclave sits just outside of Montreal and its insistence on maintaining the autonomy it was granted by First Nation treaty has led to several clashes with the provincial government, some of which back in the past resulted in violence.

And with Quebec changing course from being against online gambling to actually operating its own Espacejeux.com internet venue, I imagine the antipathy has hardly decreased.

The KGC's pre-makeover and unfortunate history - as we have discussed in this thread - will not have helped, I guess.

There's an act just introduced in the British parliament which made it through under the Ten Minute Rule for its first reading and is now headed for a second reading in March. That act carries the secondary taxing intentions of the government forward, which means that as far as the Brits are concerned, online gambling takes place at the player (and not the operator server) end, and any internet operator wishing to access the UK market will have to get a licence from the Gambling Commission and pay a tax yet to be decided. The advantage of having a white listing will be that licensing evaluation will be somewhat easier, from what I can see.

Kahnawake operators, along with other offshore operators, will be faced with the choice of licensing and paying tax in Britain; eschewing the British market; or just saying F$&#@ it and going after the market anyway - but they will be constrained from advertising in terms of the new act.

It's a frustrating thought that (from a player viewpoint) useless jurisdictions like Antigua and Malta have the white listing advantage, whilst the KGC has not...for whatever reason....despite its makeover.

 

[maxd]

... the best the KGC can do is fine them, and hope they will pay up rather than jump ship to another territory....

As I understand it they can (typically) do a whole lot more than that. KGC is one of the few licensing agents that generally requires their licensees to have their casinos hosted on servers within their own territory, namely Kahnawake territory. In other words an operator can have the plug pulled on them if they get so far out of line that the KGC needs to take serious action. I can't say if this is applicable to all KGC licensees but I believe it does apply to the majority of them.

 

[threescatters]

I don't understand why they aren't white-listed by the UK Gaming Commission. The last time I checked, the Queen was still profiled on Canadian currency.

I am extremely glad of the fact Khanawake did not get the white listing when it was drawn up a few years back.

I think most of us are in agreement here that the "old" Khanawake were terrible. This was the time period when the white list was drawn up and say what you like about the others on the list or the UK government in general, they got this call right.

The UK always has tried to ensure organised crime does not infiltritate gambling over here like it has done in other countries. Steve Wynn is portrayed as being the ultra clean face of the new Vegas in the USA but in this book here

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it is revelead he was denied a gaming licence in the UK for ties to organised crime.

When you consider the links going from the superusers that stole millions from players and the top of the Khanawake gaming comission (see the links in my post a few posts back) then it comes as no surprise they were denied the right to advertise to UK players IMO.

Malta might be hopelessly ineffective, ignoring all player complaints, but they have not helped cover up/hide the guilty partys of such a massive organised theft. It is a step beyond simply ignoring the players.

Now I am not saying there is not, as is heavily suggested in this thread, a "new" gaming commission. With new people in charge, and new ideals. But they have to name the guilty partys from these thefts and release the evidence to the correct authorities, under full view of everyone. Nothing else is acceptable IMO. Otherwise they surely are still tied to organised crime?

 

[maxd]

Malta might be hopelessly ineffective, ignoring all player complaints, but they have not helped cover up/hide the guilty partys of such a massive organised theft.

You have stated more than once that Malta is somehow doing a better job than Kahnawake. Yes, we get your issue with the AP/UB thing and yes that needs to be looked into further to decide if the CURRENT KGC people have work undone there. However this is no justification for misrepresenting who these agencies CURRENTLY are and what they are doing for players TODAY.

The current KGC people are handling hundreds of player issues and, as has already been pointed out, many many players are getting paid because of it. Malta on the other hand is receiving and/or acting upon zero player issues, big small or otherwise. Who would you prefer to turn to? A place where the chances are very good you will get a fair and timely hearing or a place where you are assured that nothing will ever be done, regardless of the circumstances. That would seem to be a no-brainer IYAM: Malta is in no way, shape or form performing better than the KGC. Malta is a black hole for player issues, deep dark and produces nothing. The KGC is very proactive on player issues and getting players paid. Please don't distort the truth simply to forward your cause regarding the AP/UB case.

Now I am not saying there is not, as is heavily suggested in this thread, a "new" gaming commission.

It hasn't been "suggested", it has been stated as a fact with stats and a track record to back it up. No need to obfuscate here, the "new" KGC is not a "suggestion" or a rumour, it is a fact. You can see their annual Complaints report

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. You can contact their very experienced and capable Dispute Resolution Officer here. These are facts, not suggestions. Again, don't belittle the KGC and what they are doing because you have an axe to grind regarding the AP/UB thing.

... they have to name the guilty partys from these thefts and release the evidence to the correct authorities, under full view of everyone. Nothing else is acceptable IMO. Otherwise [highlight]they surely are still tied to organised crime[/highlight]?

That's an outrageous statement! Because they are not doing what you think they should be doing they are suddenly "tied to organized crime"? Sorry, but that's going way over the top and without hard evidence to back that up you are seriously discrediting yourself.

 

[threescatters]

No offense intended but you have stated more than once that Malta is somehow doing a better job than Kahnawake. Yes, we get your issue with the AP/UB thing and yes that needs to be looked into further to decide if the CURRENT KGC people have work undone there.

On the other hand the current KGC people are handling hundreds of player issues and, as has already been pointed out, many many players are getting paid because of it. Malta on the other hand is receiving and/or acting upon zero player issues, big small or otherwise. Who would you prefer to turn to? A place where the chances are very good you will get a fair and timely hearing or a place where you are assured that nothing will ever be done, regardless of the circumstances. That would seem to be a no-brainer IYAM and as such Malta is in no way, shape or form performing better than the KGC.



It hasn't been "suggested", it has been stated as a fact with stats and a track record to back it up. No need to obfuscate here, the "new" KGC is not a "suggestion" or a rumour, it is the flat-out truth.



That's an outrageous statement! Because they are not doing what you think they should be doing they are suddenly "tied to organized crime"? Sorry, but that's going way over the top and without hard evidence to back that up you are seriously discrediting yourself.

Hi Max,

Sorry if you think I made an outrageous statement, or that I am discrediting myself. I am trying to provide links for everything I say. I'll start from the top.

Malta/KGC. I agree KGC is handling current player complaints way more effectively. I also never said Malta is doing a "better" job than KGC. What I said was historically Malta has never been implicated in anything like the scandal the KGC has, which is correct.

the New KGC. Ok well I have never read about a complete change of staff there but I accept what you say.

The ties to organised crime thing. Well there is absolute concrete evidence here

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of that link. You cannot deny that. Yes, it was the old KGC, but it was the KGC nonetheless.

 

[maxd]

... What I said was historically Malta has never been implicated in anything like the scandal the KGC has, which is correct.

One of the realities of this business is the numbers. Kahnawake licenses many, MANY times more casinos than Malta does. That alone dramatically increases the chances that there will be scandal at one of their licensees. Furthermore there is no point equating the AP/UB operations with the KGC itself. They are not the same thing. AP and UB were licensees of the KGC that did some dirt. That's not the same as the KGC perpetrating that dirt. The KGC's culpability after the fact is something very much to be determined AFAIC.

... Yes, it was the old KGC, but it was the KGC nonetheless.

You're not much of a fan of reform are you? Yesterday's crime does not make today's people criminals. I should think that much would be obvious. Sure, be sceptical, demand proof, but don't just repeat the past because is was true once. If everyone in this business who ever had a brush with the criminal element was beyond forgiveness simply because of that proximity I assure you that the vast majority of us would be damned beyond hope. Back in the day I sat down at the table with known gangsters. Did I do it because I thought it would be great? No, I did it because telling them flat out to "piss off" could well have been bad for my continued health. Then they went their way and I went mine. Am I beyond redemption because I took that meeting? I'd say no: AFAIC it's history, as it should be.

As I've stated before, continuing to paint the new KGC with blame for what the old KGC did is not only unfair it is damaging to this industry. Imagine how happy the truly shabby licensing outfits would be to read your posts. If I was someone at Malta or Cyprus or any of a dozen other bent and/or enfeebled licensing agencies I would be delighted to read your posts because they would, in effect, be saying "be crappy because doing a better job will never pay". Giving support to these worthless entities only ensures that they will continue to prosper and make the business as a whole much worse than it could be if people actually gave a damn about results instead of ... say, large booths at industry conventions.

And FWIW the "organized crime" thing in Quebec and its connection to the Indian territories is a much more complex issue than the casual observer or amature sleuth would like it to be. I lived there back then, the "bad guys" were all over the place. It was far easier to run into them than it was to avoid them. We're not talking about a completely civilized time and place here, things were complicated.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I suspect that it may be the Quebec provincial government that could be putting a spoke in the KGC wheel when it comes to white list recognition. The Kahnawake Mohawk enclave sits just outside of Montreal and its insistence on maintaining the autonomy it was granted by First Nation treaty has led to several clashes with the provincial government, some of which back in the past resulted in violence.

And with Quebec changing course from being against online gambling to actually operating its own Espacejeux.com internet venue, I imagine the antipathy has hardly decreased.

The KGC's pre-makeover and unfortunate history - as we have discussed in this thread - will not have helped, I guess.

There's an act just introduced in the British parliament which made it through under the Ten Minute Rule for its first reading and is now headed for a second reading in March. That act carries the secondary taxing intentions of the government forward, which means that as far as the Brits are concerned, online gambling takes place at the player (and not the operator server) end, and any internet operator wishing to access the UK market will have to get a licence from the Gambling Commission and pay a tax yet to be decided. The advantage of having a white listing will be that licensing evaluation will be somewhat easier, from what I can see.

Kahnawake operators, along with other offshore operators, will be faced with the choice of licensing and paying tax in Britain; eschewing the British market; or just saying F$&#@ it and going after the market anyway - but they will be constrained from advertising in terms of the new act.

It's a frustrating thought that (from a player viewpoint) useless jurisdictions like Antigua and Malta have the white listing advantage, whilst the KGC has not...for whatever reason....despite its makeover.

Now this UK act is on it's way to being made into law, UK players may soon be exposed to the same "no notice overnight account closures" as recently experienced by Spanish players at Jackpot Factory, and players from France and Greece earlier.

I can't see the UK government sitting back while the offshore casinos simply move back to the KGC, and accept that losing the right to advertise is a price worth paying for not paying the tax.

If the ONLY sanction the UK is going to use is the removal of advertising rights from operations without this secondary license, I can see operators deciding to use the internet for advertising, and not worry about UK media being lost to them.

The legal definition that gambling takes place at the players' PC is a great help though, as this means it comes under UK consumer law, rather than that of their licensing jurisdiction. This means that for those operators having a UK license and media advertising rights, entities like Betfair can no longer hide behind Malta's courts when it comes to disputes like "Happy Hour", and the recent horse race mishap.

The worry is that the tax will be set too high, and like the original licensing regime, no-one will be interested.

What remains to be seen is what the UK government will do about operators that take bets from UK players outside of this system. Will it still be up to the player to make the choice as now, or will they make efforts to have the transactions, or even the domains, blocked so that UK players cannot play.

It also seems that the whole idea of the whitelist will become redundant, as individual operators, rather than jurisdictions, will be licensed.

 

[jetset]

If this act passes, and there's no reason to suppose it won't, I can't see the Brit government sitting back and letting operators prepared to chance it continue to operate. There will, imo, be ancillary measures designed to make life difficult for illegal operators.

On a side note regarding the printed word; I think one has to be careful in assessing what is real evidence capable of standing up in court, and what is an 'indication', 'implication' or 'circumstantial' set of statements and what these are based upon, however well presented in often authoritative and assertive tones. This is not infrequently the case with internet message boards, and it sometimes makes it difficult for objective readers to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I mention this because it was something that again occurred to me earlier when there were references to 'organised crime' - a sensitive definition in itself - and implications that because former chief Joe Norton had once held an influential position among the Mohawks, it followed that the Kahnawake Gaming Commission could be subverted in his private and corporate interest despite its separate charter and management structure.

I think it's important for accuracy and fairness to distinguish in one's own mind what is provable fact (as was the case in much of the admirable AP/UB detective work by players) and what is speculative or implied.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If this act passes, and there's no reason to suppose it won't, I can't see the Brit government sitting back and letting operators prepared to chance it continue to operate. There will, imo, be ancillary measures designed to make life difficult for illegal operators.

On a side note regarding the printed word; I think one has to be careful in assessing what is real evidence capable of standing up in court, and what is an 'indication', 'implication' or 'circumstantial' set of statements and what these are based upon, however well presented in often authoritative and assertive tones. This is not infrequently the case with internet message boards, and it sometimes makes it difficult for objective readers to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I mention this because it was something that again occurred to me earlier when there were references to 'organised crime' - a sensitive definition in itself - and implications that because former chief Joe Norton had once held an influential position among the Mohawks, it followed that the Kahnawake Gaming Commission could be subverted in his private and corporate interest despite its separate charter and management structure.

I think it's important for accuracy and fairness to distinguish in one's own mind what is provable fact (as was the case in much of the admirable AP/UB detective work by players) and what is speculative or implied.

As far as Joe Norton and the KGC is concerned, it is nothing more than a "potential conflict of interest". It is not the same as him actually abusing his influence in order to persuade the KGC to grant him undue favour. Most UK MPs are in similar positions to that which Joe Norton finds himself in, and there is often speculation that they have misused their position and influence, and sometimes this becomes proven fact with MPs suffering sanctions and finding themselves having to resign to save at least some degree of respect. Transparent procedures and clear separations of interests are often used to prevent such speculation getting out of control. The KGC was set up under a separate charter, and have brought in an external member to hold the high profile post, not another member of the Mohawk, which might generate further speculation that internal interests are being served.


As for the UK, has a specific date been proposed for this new regime becoming law?