Kahna-whacky?

[uungy]

I'm on Malta at present but no further progress made.

I believe Uungy's suggestion above has some merit - if enough complaints are made about Malta's white listing in spite of its lack of player sensitivity, the Commission will sit up and take notice - but we're talking more than two or three complaints here imo.

I am not sure how many you would need. I dont think its the numbers, I think its the proof that they are non respondant, and its for "consumer protection" they should not be an accepted license

 

[Pinababy69]

Hi Pina, I get myself into enough trouble online. Imagine letting me loose elsewhere


Cheers



Dave

Oh dear....how well I relate to that, lol.

 

[Pinababy69]

Thought I'd browse the Kahnawake site, both the main site and the Gaming Commission site. Came across a couple of interesting things.

The first was that the Province of Quebec has decided to venture into online gaming, and is going to open an establishment offering a casino, poker and "other games of chance". I'm interested mainly because I'd like to see what software they decide to use. I hope it's not like the Harrah's (or was it Caesar's) venture, that is nothing more than an 888 clone (using Dragonfish software). Microgaming or RTG would be good, lol.

The article for anyone interested (especially from Canada):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Mohawk Council of Kahnaw:ke responds to Qubec's announcement that Loto-Qubec will develop online gaming

02/05/2010

On Wednesday February 3, 2010 the Qubec Minister of Finance, Raymond Bachand, announced that the government of Qubec has authorized Loto-Qubec to offer online gaming and games of chance. The Minister's press release, as well as comments attributed to him in the media, seem to imply that the Loto-Qubec initiative will negatively impact Kahnaw:ke and the initiatives it has taken in the online gaming industry over the past 12 years.

Minister Bachand either does not understand how the online gaming industry works - or is simply using the opportunity to take a gratuitous swipe at Kahnaw:ke for his own political reasons.

Loto-Qubec has been authorized to "offer online gambling" and will therefore become another online gaming operator offering casino, poker and other games of chance. Loto-Qubec will therefore be competing with other established online gaming operators such as: PokerStars, Party Gaming, Full Tilt Poker and Ultimate Bet. Many of these operators are licensed by and operate from jurisdictions such as Isle of Man, Gibraltar and Alder nay. Even for those online gaming operators that are licensed by and operate from Kahnaw:ke, it is difficult to understand how Loto-Quebec's late and limited entry into the market will negatively affect - let alone "cannibalize" - these sites.

Cont'd at above link...

The second thing that caught my eye was on the Gaming Commission part of the site. I was just browsing the pages, and checked out the link for Players. I have to say that it all seems very well written, and the guidelines seem spot on the money. I especially appreciated the fact that they claim to take the whole "responsible gambling" issue quite seriously....both underage and problem gambling.

A link to the page, and a quoted copy of their policies for players:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The Commission's primary function is to provide for the protection of players who choose to participate in the online gaming offered by the Commission's permit holders. The Commission uses a variety of means to ensure that:

interactive gaming is conducted responsibly, fairly and honestly; and
the operators of interactive games treat players fairly;

that they pay winners promptly and that all information related to player accounts is held in the strictest confidence.

In addition, a variety of mechanisms are provided in the Commission's Regulations concerning Interactive Gaming for the protection of persons under the full age of eighteen (18) years and for persons who are vulnerable to the risks that are associated with gaming. For example, the Regulations provide that:

gaming sites must provide a mechanism by which a player has the ability to limit his or her play - including setting the limit to zero;

a person who is close to a player (eg. family member) may apply to the Commission for an order prohibiting gaming sites from accepting bets or wagers from that player;

the relationship between the operator, a gaming site and players must be contractual and must not contain terms that are unfair or unreasonable;

gaming sites must take adequate measures to protect the confidentiality of player information; and rules of play must be clearly posted in English and any other such language as may be appropriate.

The Commission Regulations also provide a number of dispute resolution mechanisms to address player complaints - including the possibility of third party arbitration. In fact, the Commission's staff includes a full time Dispute Resolution Officer to ensure that all player complaints are addressed in a timely way.

If they actually hold their licensees to these regulations, I see good things all around.

 

[maxd]

Great post Pina! I strongly suspected there was a Canadian side to the "Kahnawake II" story and I think this may be a good part of it.

As many of you probably know, Quebec and Kahnawake have long tussled over jurisdictional issues of all sorts. Having known Quebec politics first hand I can easily see that their getting into gaming is the beginning of a push by Quebec against sovereignty claims of Kahnawake in the gaming area. It's difficult to imagine how this is going to play out over time but then clear-sighted long-term planning has seldom been a prominent feature of Quebec provincial politics.

 

[jetset]

The friction between the two parties imo comes through in the Kahnawake statement, which the KGC has distributed quite widely following the news stories on the Loto Quebec intention to venture online with other forms of gambling.

Certainly it appears that the potentially major synergy that could be achieved by working together has so far eluded the KGC and Quebec authorities.

The Quebec " liberalisation" is being done in conjunction with the BC and Atlantic provincial loteries btw, and it has the potential to be a significant breakthrough in Canadian provincial government (and maybe federal government too) thinking.

Casinomeister News has been following the Quebec moves for some weeks.

 

[maxd]

Certainly it appears that the potentially major synergy that could be achieved by working together has so far eluded the KGC and Quebec authorities.

Quebec has ever had a difficult relationship with the native councils that attempt to pursue their own financial and economic destinies, especially if they happen to arm themselves, claim sovereignty, and deny unilateral access to Quebec law enforcement. This goes way, way back and although the friction hasn't produced much heat recently you can be sure the underlying issues are still there and still have the potential to heat things up very quickly.

In other words missing an opportunity to "work together" is pretty much par for the course. This is especially true since one of those two parties has a strong tendency to interpret "work together" as "oh goody, you've surrendered".

 

[jetset]

Judging by the tone of the latest Mohawk Council of the Kahnawake statement there's not much love lost on either side, with some pretty abrasive criticism and references to past political 'statements of mutual understanding and respect.'

QUOTE

"Loto-Quebecs online gambling operation could be hosted from Mohawk Internet Technologies. The Regie could work with the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to harmonise their regulations concerning online gaming. UNQUOTE.

The statement draws attention to the pledges that Quebec made to Kahnawake in the October 15, 1998 Statement of Understanding and Mutual Respect.

This statement says in part, Kahnawake and Quebec further agree to participate as partners in some of Kahnawakes economic development ventures. Quebec also agrees to develop financial and fiscal arrangements that would provide for Kahnawakes long term economic stability.

And this was apparently reinforced in June 2009 when Quebec Premier Jean Charest and MCK Grand Chief Michael Delisle Jr., signed a further Statement of Understanding and Mutual Respect that was designed to improve intergovernmental relations and establish economic partnerships between Kahnawake and Quebec.

But in practical terms it is strange that more dialogue is not taking place when there are potential benefits for both sides.

 

[maxd]

... not much love lost on either side....

That pretty much sums it up. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if part of the present activity from Kahnawake re: the new Dispute Resolution Officer (or whatever they're calling it) is a move by them to scoop the initiative. If they're successful that could leave the province playing catch-up, which I'm sure wouldn't trouble the Kahnawake people too much.

 

[Pinababy69]

First Public Test for Kahnawake

Well, we didn't have to wait too long for Kahnawake to be put to the test. Sorry for the cross posting Max and Bryan...but I posted this in another unrelated thread in Online Casinos. I just now updated myself on the situation at the GPWA, where it's been posted about....and realized the tie to Kahnawake. Here's my original post, which gives a very brief synopsis of the situation. I'll link to the thread at the GPWA, in case anyone wants the full details, and to read Casino Rewards replies on the issue.

Hey CBG, I bet you're talking about the guy who played at Casino Rewards right? Deposited and claimed the SUB of $100, and read the BONUS terms and conditions. But lo and behold, Casino Rewards had the term about only being allowed to bet 25% of your initial bonus amount, HIDDEN at the very bottom of the GENERAL terms and conditions. What possible reason could they have for not clearly displaying that particular condition, under the bonus terms and conditions, which the normal player would read when USING A BONUS?

So, now they've confiscated the players 10K winnings, standing steadfastly by their claim that the player should have read all the terms upon claiming the bonus. Rightly so, but it's also the casino's responsibility to act in a forthright, and honest manner. And not hide terms relative to a specific promotion, on a page not specific to that promo. Makes no sense. Belle Rock did the very same thing a couple years back. When asked about it, their lawyers told them they were covered, as long as the term was there. Didn't matter where it was, as long as it was on their website. I guess players should have lawyers as well going through every page, and every term on every page...before they make a deposit, or claim a bonus.

So...I'll tell you what I think Casinobonusguy. It stinks to high heaven. And if Casino Rewards were accredited here, I'd be signing up at the GPWA and advising that player to PAB. And also campaigning to get Bryan to get them to put the bloody term where it belongs...WITH the specific bonus terms.

Never played at Casino Rewards, I've read too many instances of shitty treatment of other players. But if I did, I'd be closing my accounts ASAP. Shady IMO, no other way to describe a practice like this.

A link to the thread at the GPWA:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

After just now reading the last few pages of the thread, the affected player has posted there (Hans). He has said that he has filed a complaint/dispute with Kahnawake, and someone else mentioned that they claim to have a seven day turnaround on disputes.

So I for one, am very anxious to see the outcome of this, and how Micki will handle it. I fear that she may side with the casino, and say that as long as the term is present ANYWHERE on the website, it's up to the player to read everything. I still say it's deceptive.

Let's see how it plays out.

 

[thelawnet]

Well, we didn't have to wait too long for Kahnawake to be put to the test. Sorry for the cross posting Max and Bryan...but I posted this in another unrelated thread in Online Casinos. I just now updated myself on the situation at the GPWA, where it's been posted about....and realized the tie to Kahnawake. Here's my original post, which gives a very brief synopsis of the situation. I'll link to the thread at the GPWA, in case anyone wants the full details, and to read Casino Rewards replies on the issue.



A link to the thread at the GPWA:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

After just now reading the last few pages of the thread, the affected player has posted there (Hans). He has said that he has filed a complaint/dispute with Kahnawake, and someone else mentioned that they claim to have a seven day turnaround on disputes.

The guy told me 48 hours.

 

[maxd]

From what we heard from the Kahnawake guys at ICE the 7 days number is more realistic. I'm sure they can respond within 48 hours -- as in "we have received your issue" -- but as I understand it the decision making is done at a weekly meeting of the council so ... a week seems the better estimate.

 

[maxd]

It seems I may have assumed wrong. This just in from Micki, the Dispute Management person at Kahnawake:

I acknowledge receipt any query or complaint within a maximum of 24 hours. As stated in our regulations we allow a permit holder up to 7 days to respond to a query or complaint. Sometimes, the response results in an immediate resolution or closure of a case, but many times it is the start of a discussion from which a final ruling will be made. As we both know this can take consideably longer depending on the complexity of the case.

[Quoted with permission]

 

[Pinababy69]

Ruling from the KGC

Well, there may be hope yet for this industry, and for Kahnawake. They have released their ruling, and because the player himself chose to make it public...have also made their ruling public.

The player will get 50% of his winnings (5K Euro) deposited back into his casino account, which can be withdrawn. Given the fact that the player DID contravene the T&C's, this is a fair ruling IMO. It does NOT excuse the fact that the casino HID the most important term on a page not specifically related to that bonus. So, I think...fair for all. And Casino Rewards has been instructed to clarify/modify their terms as well.

Link to the ruling:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Should be able to download the PDF file...if not, I can copy and paste the decision here. Well done Micki et al.

 

[BingoT]

The public ruling for all that can't view it.

P.O. Box 1799
Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
Quebec, Canada J0L1B0
Telephone +1 450 635 1076 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************+1 450 635 1076******end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Facsimile +1 450 635 1139
Direct email: complaints@gamingcommission.ca
TO: Hans Niemz
UK Casino Club
FROM: Micki Oster, Dispute Resolution Officer
DATE: Wednesday, February 17, 2010
RE: Hans Niemz complaint against UK Casino Club
As the Commissions Dispute Resolution Officer, I have had numerous communications with the complainant, Hans Niemz, and with UKCasinoClub (the Casino) concerning a complaint lodged by Mr. Niemz against the Casino.
We have now finally completed our investigation into this complaint and are prepared to direct Mr. Niemz complaint be resolved as follows.
We have taken several factors into consideration in reaching our decision in this matter.
Clause 13 of the Casinos Terms & Conditions (the T&C) states as follows:
The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. 'Irregular play' includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:
i. Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play - through requirement for that bonus having been met;
ii. Using the double-up feature to increase bet values;
iii. Even money bets on Sic Bo, Craps and Roulette
Mr. Niemz specifically accepted the Casinos T&C, including Clause 13, at the time he registered his account.
After registering his account, Mr. Niemz engaged in a pattern of play that breached Clause 13(i). Mr. Niemz does not dispute this fact.
Mr. Niemz dispute centres on the argument that, at the relevant time, some additional terms and conditions that were posted on the Casinos site regarding signup bonuses (the
2
Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion) did not clearly incorporate the provisions of the Casinos T&C.
However, given the fact that Mr. Niemz did accept the T&C and that his pattern of play subsequently breached Clause 13(i) of the T&C, we cannot conclude that it is reasonable to direct the Casino to reimburse Mr. Niemz for 100% of the amount of the disputed amount 10,000 Euro.
We do accept that the Casino must bear some responsibility for failing to make it clear that the Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion incorporated the provisions of the Casinos T&C.
In view of the foregoing, we hereby direct that:
1. The Casino must, on or before 8:00 p.m ET on February 18, 2010, deposit 50% of the disputed amount i.e. 5,000 Euro into Mr. Neimz account and permit him to withdraw this amount, and
2. The Casino must immediately amend its Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion to clearly indicate that they incorporate the provisions of the T&C.
Given that Mr. Niemz previously chose to make his dispute with the Casino a public matter, we do not consider the terms of this decision to be confidential.
The Commissions file in this matter is now closed.
KAHNAWAKE GAMING COMMISSION
Per: Micki Oster, Dispute Resolution Officer

 

[Pinababy69]

Bumping so that discussion ongoing in the Realplayer/CasinoClub thread re: Kahnawake, can continue here.

 

[jetset]

KAHNAWAKE PUBLISHES PLAYER DISPUTE STATS

Licensing jurisdiction shares information.

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission built on its more open and player-sensitive policies this week with the inaugural release of player dispute statistics over the past year.

After years of criticism for lacking player sensitivity and bad communications, the Commission last year refocused and restructured its efforts as one of the industry's biggest licensing jurisdictions, and the results of the significant change in approach are now becoming more obvious.

In order to address the important issue of providing a fair player-disputes channel, the KGC engaged Micki Oster, a respected former operator of integrity, to advise it and operate an unbiased dispute resolution service linking players with KGC-licensed operators.

This week the KGC published Oster's first annual report on its website, illustrating its commitment to a more communicative and transparent policy.

The report can be viewed in full here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, but highlights include:

* Over the year 2010, 607 complaints were filed, of which 169 were screened out due to no KGC jurisdiction etc.

* With 17 disputes still active as the year ended, 421 had been resolved - 228 or 54.6 percent in favour of the player. 148 (45.8 percent) complaints were found to be without foundation after extensive investigation.

* October and November were the busiest months for complaints.

* Main causes for complaints were: Locked Accounts - 81; Slow-No pay - 173; Fairness issues - 105; Miscellaneous - 62.

 

[LinkinFart]

Your post jetset made me look to previous posts and that Hans related ruling.

I`m speechless. Really. They`ve been high on my personal list of jurisdictions but I think this puts them at the very top. I really wonder what the ruling would have been by any other regulatory body. Speechless. :notworthy

 

[jetset]

Over a year ago (at post #7 in this thread, I wrote the following:

"Time will tell if this is a genuine and sustained initiative; I for one hope that it will be, because a more regulatory KGC means a lower liklihood of bad operators, and a better system for looking after player interests."

That was after discussing the turnaround initiative at the KGC with its main drivers, and I have to say that since then I have seen more responsiveness and more transparency than at any other time previously from these folks.

When I met with them again this year at ICEi there was more progress to report, and now they have followed up as promised with the first of their player dispute results.

In the past I, like many others, have been deeply critical of the KGC, but from what I have seen of the pudding so far, it's proving to be a lot more positive.

Now....compare this commitment with the LGA in Malta. It would be great if we could find a way to similarly motivate those folks in player sensitivity instead of their apparent present obsession with issuing licenses and hauling in the cash.

 

[LinkinFart]

I believe that only thing that will force Malta to make positive move is if players stop playing at sites licensed by them combined with no other EU based regulatory body being worthless as they are now. Hope I`m wrong or that every player adopt French protesting habbits.