kaave.com has plainly threatened a member .here is the mail

[dreamtheatre]

The mail below was sent by kaave.com to Nursen Bulut.Nursen was an ex member of kaave.com.her member name was herpess. we met today.

Her membership had been terminated because kaave claims she had cheated at a BACKGAMMON game.For anyone familiar with the game, it is impossible to cheat at an online backgammon game. You do not throw the dice do you?She had about 600 in her account when her membership was terminated.

she found a way to take her money back. and then she recieved the following message from kaave.com it says:

YOU HAVE TWO HOURS TO STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING

THIS IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST MAIL THAT WILL EVER BE SENT TO YOU

GOOD LUCK

This site displays a Kahnawake logo and claims a kahnawake license.

Thanks!!!!

From: "Destek" <destek@kaave.com>
To: "nursen bulut" <bulut1972@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kimlik Bilgileriniz
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 19:02:59 -0000


Yaptiginizi durdurmaniz icin 2 saatiniz var.
Bu size atilan ilk ve son maildir.
Bol Sanslar
----- Original Message -----
From: nursen bulut
To: destek@kaave.com
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Kimlik Bilgileriniz


kımlık bılgılerımı bana neden gonderıyorsunuz. bende zaten var o bılgıler???

 

[TheBloke]

You should translate her email at the bottom, too.

Now I may be way off here - but:
You said she had found a way to remove her money
He said "You have 2 hours to stop what you are doing", Good luck"

To me that doesn't sound like a threat. To me that sounds like one employee saying "get it finished within 2 hours!". If it was a threat, why would he say 2 hours? Why wouldn't he say "stop immediately!!" Also, why would he sign off with Good Luck if it was a threat?

So it sounds like, whatever she was doing, if she could finish it in less than 2 hours, she was ok. So this email may have actually been a helpful email, perhaps from an employee who didn't agree with the way the casino had screwed her.

Just a thought.

Did she get her money out in the end?

 

[dreamtheatre]

the lines below belong to Nursen she says:

why are you sending me my identity information. i already have it.

if you have not interpreted kaave's message as a threat i think you have recieved no threats in your life.

 

[soflat]

...
So it sounds like, whatever she was doing, if she could finish it in less than 2 hours, she was ok. So this email may have actually been a helpful email, perhaps from an employee who didn't agree with the way the casino had screwed her.

Just a thought.

Yup, it looks like she had someone on the inside helping her, and that email was warning that she only had two more hours before the opportunity would end. Was it more like a guardian angel rather than a threat?

 

[dreamtheatre]

now i am sure my English sucks.

when i read it in Turkish ,it is a plain threat and she has no guardian angel inside and people are STILL taking their money back using the same method.

another attempt to translate.

you have two hours to quit what you are doing. this is the first and the last mail we shall send .good luck.

the good luck part may seem strange. but i think that is the way they are trying to conceal the threat or soften it.

 

[winbig]

now i am sure my English sucks.

when i read it in Turkish ,it is a plain threat and she has no guardian angel inside and people are STILL taking their money back using the same method.

another attempt to translate.

you have two hours to quit what you are doing. this is the first and the last mail we shall send .good luck.

the good luck part may seem strange. but i think that is the way they are trying to conceal the threat or soften it.

How about translating the question she posed to them?

Personally I have to agree that there's someone on the inside working *with* her. If there wasn't, her account, along with her money she was trying to get out, would have been locked immediately. Not 2 hours from then.


Also, was your original problem with them ever resolved? Bryan asked you not to keep creating many many many many threads (which you are doing) until it was...but yet you keep bringing up dirt on them? Why? Fighting fire with fire doesn't really work...usually works against you in the end..

 

[dreamtheatre]

i think i am very bad at expressing myself in English

everybody here agreed that the mail recieved by Nursen was a threat.

everybody there agreed that someone inside was trying to help.

i am at the moment talking with Nursen.and she absolutely has no friends inside. and yes she took her money back 45 days after her membership was cancelled. one person i referred to in my previous treads who claimed that 4000 dollars was withdrawn from his credit card without his permission also took his money back. and kaave.com did not pay these willingly . i have followed these members methods and made my application. i am sure i WILL get my money back too.

and these are ABSOLUTELY the last words i am writing.

i found much more understanding in my fellow ex-members than i found here.

thanks everybody and sorry if i have offended anyone unwillingly.

 

[chuchu59]

The beauty of this forum is that there are many,many members who try to take a balanced view in order to be as objective as possible. Slamming casinos/organisations without realising the whole picture is easy but will not result in issues being resolved. If enough information is provided then the members here can arrive at a conclusion and I am sure that you and the player in question will generate much sympathy.

As for the e-mail, well it's difficult to say it's a threat but to say it's a warning would be more appropriate. If, in kaave.com's view, the player is cheating or something like that, they are fully justified to warn you to STOP.
What else could they possibly say?

Dreamtheatre, please continue to post. Remember, the guys here are not fine-weather friends. Rather, they tend to look at the full picture before deciding simply because they are veterans who have heard many weepies before only to find out later that they have been conned into believing tall stories from roguish players. Dont worry about your English. It is perfectly understandable.

 

[dreamtheatre]

one last post and thanks chuchu59

one last post due to chuchu59's very nice words.

i think i failed to give the whole picture and now that i have read my posts once again i think i am responsible for the misunderstandings. here is what happened with Nursen. We have met just yesterday so i will write only what she has said without any comments of my own. If she is lying then both of us must endure the consenquences since i have brought this subject here.

1) nursen's membership was cancelled. she had 600 dollars in her account then. and she had lost at least 10.000 during the one year period while she was a member.

2) the reason was stated as alleged cheating in a backgammon game

3)Nursen sent lots of mails to destek@kaave.com and recieved no reply

4)she applied her bank and asked all the withdrawals made by kaave.com to be returned back to her.

5) the bank cancelled all the withdrawals by kaave.com in the last three months.!!!!!!!!

6) Nursen began telling everyone she knew to be an ex member how she took her money back.

7) Many people took back their money the same way.

8) Nursen recieved the notorious mail i have TRIED to translate

9) i saw a post by nursen at the address

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

10) i found her msn and got in touch with her. we become friends quickly.

11) she told how to apply my bank

12) i did my application

13) now i am waiting.

Thanks

 

[caruso]

I entirely agree with you - I would interpret this as a threat also, although a weak one with no consequences I can see. The "two hours to stop" refers to the word-spreading to other players who instigated the same deposit-cancelling process - it plainly does NOT refer to stopping game play. This tallies exactly with the line of events described in the above post.

Three months to cancel deposits from your bank account? I didn't know they had such long clearing periods, and it certainly adds quite a layer of protection. Of course, this is the bank account equivalent of credit card charging back, and is only a last resort as you'll quickly get blacklisted.

Although you didn't get your winnings, I'm delighted you managed to exact such punishment on them, albeit one which won't have done you any favours in your future online play.

Did they actually give any details of this claim of backgammon "cheating"?

 

[suzecat]

I have been a backgammon player for 30+ years and can't recall anyone cheating at this game of rolling dice. So I would very much like to hear how this was done if it was in fact done. Kaave.com - care to share?

Dream -- thanks for the clarification -- it makes complete sense to me now. Veiled threats are still threats.

 

[spearmaster]

I have been a backgammon player for 30+ years and can't recall anyone cheating at this game of rolling dice. So I would very much like to hear how this was done if it was in fact done. Kaave.com - care to share?

Dream -- thanks for the clarification -- it makes complete sense to me now. Veiled threats are still threats.

Perhaps the player managed to find a pair of loaded dice online?

 

[johndes]

Sorry for spoiling your fun but

Actually, you can easily cheat in backgammon by opening backgammon analyser on the same computer and play the moves that the software's AI system tells you to do. I play in gammonempire and they easily catch these guys as they know how a computer would play (perfect moves).

 

[jetset]

I'm not a backgammon player, so please educate me...I don't see the harm in what you have suggested above if it is freely available to everyone. Some of the established casinos offer automated play for basic strategy on blackjack, which would seem to be the same sort of thing as you are suggesting here?

 

[The Dude]

Actually, you can easily cheat in backgammon by opening backgammon analyser on the same computer and play the moves that the software's AI system tells you to do. I play in gammonempire and they easily catch these guys as they know how a computer would play (perfect moves).

Geeze -- that sucks! So there are real cheats out there that are screwing this casino over by playing "perfect play".

Is this really cheating though? I thought that cheating is more or less concerned with players peeking at each others cards, hacking the software, etc. Could you explain this further?

 

[The Dude]

Ahem, class - pay attention.

Actually, I think this is a good opportunity to stop and define "cheat".

What does "cheat" really mean?

Well to keep things simple, let's just look at some definitions of the verb:

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
Well that doesn't really apply here. Nobody was overcharged, underpaid, etc. Let's skip to the next one.

To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
Possibly - I don't think anyone was defrauded out of anything really, but perhaps the casino felt that using software (if indeed it was used) is a form of trickery. But then, aren't the players who are expert players and play perfect games tricksters?

To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
Ah ha! Perhaps this is what we're looking for. Being mislead. Perhaps the casino was mislead into thinking that the player was a real player, and not a player who was using some sort of AI software. How misleading.

To fool...illusions that cheat the eye.

How about casino managers who pose as players in message boards defending the acts of casino waywardness. Isn't this considered misleading? An illusion that cheats the eye? (metaphorically speaking)

Trying to fool people into thinking you are someone that you are not. That my friend is an example of a cheat.

johndes About you: just a player
IP 81.129.157.63

Kaave.com manager's emails (from my correspondence)
IP 81.129.157.63

An exact match.

So who is being mislead or cheated here?

 

[Macgyver]

Trying to fool people into thinking you are someone that you are not. That my friend is an example of a cheat.

johndes About you: just a player
IP 81.129.157.63

Kaave.com manager's emails (from my correspondence)
IP 81.129.157.63

An exact match.

So who is being mislead or cheated here?

In memory of when I was in grade school ...

"Ooooooohhhhh, busted!!"

 

[caruso]

johndes About you: just a player
IP 81.129.157.63

Kaave.com manager's emails (from my correspondence)
IP 81.129.157.63

An exact match.

Haaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha.

Too funny.

Amazing they're still trying to pull these stunts.

 

[johndes]

Cheating in Backgammon

I think you don't understand what is cheating in backgammon.

They don't play against the casino or the company.

These guys by getting help from the computer they beat other honest people at the multiplayer tables.

Backgammon is not played against the casino, members play the game with each other.

So they do cheat, and there is nothing wrong that we post here to tell the truth.

 

[The Dude]

So then you're both all screwed up. Dubious players that do baaad things to unlicensed casinos (?) that employ shills.

Okay, I finally get it.

 

[soflat]

I think you don't understand what is cheating in backgammon.

They don't play against the casino or the company.

These guys by getting help from the computer they beat other honest people at the multiplayer tables.

Backgammon is not played against the casino, members play the game with each other.

So they do cheat, and there is nothing wrong that we post here to tell the truth.

Do your T&Cs specifically mention that you will confiscate funds of players using computers to aid their play?

Is that why you confiscated the funds of the players that have posted here?

How do you determine that a player is using a computer program to aid their play?

 

[caruso]

I think you don't understand what is cheating in backgammon.

They don't play against the casino or the company.

These guys by getting help from the computer they beat other honest people at the multiplayer tables.

This isn't cheating. Assuming backgammon is a multi-player skill-based game like poker, I've had my ass whipped enough by players playing poker with their mega-bots to never touch the game online again. Nobody "cheated" me, they simply played optimally with additional, legal resources.

Also, listing yourself as "just a player" is example of the most spectacular deceipt. You are the manager, you claim to be "a player", and you calmly try to justify yourself??

As the manager, why do you lie about your identity? How do you think this makes you look to the community?

 

[soflat]

Also, listing yourself as "just a player" is example of the most spectacular deceipt. You are the manager, you claim to be "a player", and you calmly try to justify yourself??

As the manager, why do you lie about your identity? How do you think this makes you look to the community?

At least he came clean about his identity now.

Maybe we can get a little dialogue going and find out why they are confiscating so many players' money.

 

[dreamtheatre]

cheat?

i had told that i would never post again but after i read certain things i felt obliged to clarify some matters.i know i am contradicting myself and maybe losing confidence in your eyes but i have to make this final post.i have to remind some facts.

1)i had 836 dollars in my account when kaave.com cancelled my membership.and the reason was not CHEATING. i have never cheated in my life even at monopoly.i would never lose software to win whether it is allowed or not. i share my house with my boyfriend İlker. He used to be a member too .His membership was cancelled too. And the reason was just like mine . inappropriate behaviour(no details as to what this behaviour is) but i myself never threatened any player nor swore at anyone.and i am sure nor did he. but even while he was a member he thought kaave was a dubious place although he won much more than he lost while he was a member.

2) two people whose membership has been cancelled RECENTLY due to inapproprite behaviour (hasan8137,caldion34)had not logged in their kaave account for at least two months. did they attempt inappropriate behaviour using telepathy.

3)two people were caught red handed while cheating(codi,depbluesea).their membership was NOT cancelled. They were telling each other their hands.

4) there are at least 150 members whose membership has been cancelled for trivial reasons other than alleged cheating.Most of them had money in their accounts.Many were not warned even once.

5) i am not a dubious player trying to cheat an unlicensed casino.The only LIE i have written here is this: i do not need this 850 dollars cause i come from a very rich and reputable family.and i am not afraid to reveal my identity here. but half of the money belonged to my boyfriend and he does need the money.

6) this money was stolen from us so we have every right to pursue it.

7) the tread titled help me i really need this money was written soon after the tread kaave.com does not pay my money. when i saw that nobody was interested in the first tread i tried a more romantic approach and it is a very white lie since ilker is unemployed at the moment and is need of this money.



I will not take any post questioning my honesty too kindly. please avoid using accusations unless you have proof. I myself have always taken great care in selecting my words not to offend others. but as for thieves i will fight till the end.

 

[The Dude]

He said she said

The casino contacted me several days ago stating that you had more than one account. Here is an excerpt - the names have been changed to protect..er, oh well - the names have been changed:

Coming to the player Mr. White on your forum. His actual name is Mr. Blue and his previous account (former Mr. Green) has been closed because he used to abuse all the players in the rooms and also our customer service representatives. He swears a lot and also creates a lot of problems in the tables. His account used to be closed temporarily many times. And a month ago we closed his account permanently.

So some time after, he opened an another account under a different name but from our system we did understand that this account is actually his account. (As a matter of fact he already told that he was Mr. Green in the chat rooms to his former buddies in the system). That's is why we closed his account as this player is trouble and we no longer want him in our system.

The first time we closed his account we sent his money back but as he is forbidden to open a second account, (it is our corporate policy not to encourage second accounts as all the gaming web sites do) we didn't refund his remaining balance in the second time. It took 2 days to discover that Mr. White was actually the former bad guy Mr. Green.