Jackpot Factory/Affiliates and Players

derelict

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
....
Pinababy69 said:
BB1Webs, no offense, but why don't you read the last two or three pages of the main JF thread, stuff that's just been posted in the last hour. Then come back and tell me that JF had no knowledge of what was being done. Thanks.

I believe they knew exactly what they were doing, but still agree with the sentiment. Yes, it's undesirable, especially from a search engine/affiliate point of view, but please, call it what it is. Tricky SEO.

Nobody was going to believe that playing slots would cause their deceased pets to come back to life. They were playing the optimization game and they did it well. Amazingly well. In fact, after I saw this thread I started noticing their results in some of my own searches. Is this bad? Absolutely. But from my perspective as a player, there are far worse things to be concerned about.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
derelict said:
But from my perspective as a player, there are far worse things to be concerned about.

And how do you think Goodlatte and his anti-gaming lobbyists in Washington are going to view this? As harmless? Targeting and making light of disadvantaged groups of people? If you believe this is no more important than a simple "bad strategy" marketing campaign, no amount of debate will ever convince you I guess.
 

Linus

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Location
TX
I suspect Goodlatte & Co. are at least as concerned about foreign casinos ripping off Americans, as they are about scummy marketing campaigns.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Goodlatte and co are not the least bit interested in protecting Americans - though obviously they would like everyone to think so, and they will take any ammunition they can get. Their only objective is to hang their hats on some issue they can call their own.
 

bb1webs

Webmaster
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
BondedCasinos.com
Hi again,

first let me say that I totally respect your work in this niche Pina; and I respectfully choose to disagree on this matter; while overall I still have issues with the aff side that JF uses; because they choose to bundle their network.

second I have to say that I find the text so absurd that its tempting to say that anybody stupid enough to fall for that crap deserves what they get .... but in fact I can understand how it is possible that somebody so very down on their luck/life that they might actually believe ... but realistically I think it is unlikely any reasonable thinking person is going to read such an insult to one's own intelligence and come away inspired by anything that I have read ...

that said; the best thing I can offer to show that I believe JF did not in fact know what was going on; is not by a current explanation of things, but rather by an explanation I had sent a player over a recent issue involving ... allslots (or all jackpots, I forget which, oh well, I'll copy enough you can see what's going on) ... anyway, I since it will likely be a bit long, I will put in red the more important parts.

... before I add the quote I think the fact that JF came and posted the pages were taken down when in fact they were not ... more so proves my point because who in their right mind would be stupid enough to come here and boldly make such a statement .... knowing it is not true? I just don't see it happening. What I very much DO see happening is what i have come to expect from almost every online casino. The right hand making promises or claims that the left hand has no idea about: or perhaps its that the right hand orders a job done, then the left hand claims it is done when in fact it is not... but eventually it is my experience that the matter usually does get attention. Just not in a timely fashion.

anyway, here's the quote:
Steve, thanks for keeping in touch; All Jackpots did deposit the $100 in my account and of course I wagered and lost it; they also sent me an email late last night or this morning saying that they will cancel the check and deposit the money in my Neteller account. I'm sure they are waiting to make sure the check is cancelled before paying. If you could just stay involved until they actually pay, by the way, they didn't ask for the check back and can cancel it without me returning it so I guess I have a souvenir from Lebanon. I also took the $200 you gave me and wagered it at Spin Palace ($50) and All Jackpots ($140) and have about $20 left on the All Jackpots, I figured that after all of this and my new Neteller account, I should be gold but alas I didn't win. As soon as I receive my payment I will let you know and if you could just recommend a few places I'd appreciate it as I would like to gamble some of it.

David
----- Original Message -----
From: steve from bondedcasinos.com
To: David
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with Check


Hi David,

ya Proc-Cyber has been a hemorrhoid for MGS for a long time because they are a separate entity they don't worry about a casino's rep the way the casino itself would.

If you could,... please let me know what casino you sign up and play at? and how you did in the end.

I'm still awaiting a reply from my contacts which I'm certain they are waiting on Proc-Cyber.

I also gave jackpots a bunch of shit about making promises not kept, so you're $100 may be in the account by now.

... David I've no excuse for all this except to say that if you visit my pages where I've posted the jackpots I've hit: you'll see that probably there are more jackpots won at Allslots than any other MGS casino. And they've always paid me and those were amounts far exceeding $800, (I've sometimes cashed in as much as $5000 at one time), and many of those were before I was well-known to the casinos. Link Removed (and pages following. links are at bottom of the pages)

you've just hit a bad run of luck on getting paid but (and I've no reason to back one bunch of casinos over another ... of the ones i list), I wouldn't write-off jackpots ... I mean once they get things made right and prove to you they are a quality casino despite their failings this time around.

Its been my experience that i for some reason or another, will get a casino that I am luckier at; for a stretch of time anyways. And jackpots might be yours. Your experience sure jives with what i could expect from finding my lucky casino, lol.

.... nothing easy in this life. :)

before I go I will ask if you are in correspondence with Jackpots and have worked something out or do i need to stay involved? Also please know that aside the fact they've written the wrong date (still wondering how they arrived at that?) that simply due to the fact the US feds are always pressuring: that complications do happen with all online casinos finding a way around the obstacles that the feds put up ... in order to be able to take and send money. Because of all the different avenues they must use; it is not hard (once you've been around online gambling for while) to understand how there are so many instances that don't end up coming out the way they should have.

I am certain they would pay you thru NETeller if you choose that route; but as I said before they may want the check back before letting go the funds.

just let me know what i need to be doing. I don't want to be in the way but also don't want you feeling I left you hanging. So you know i am at your service.

and I very much will want to know when/if Jackpots satisfies you. I do know they'll pay you what is owed. whether or not that is satisfaction would be up to you.

.... I forgot to mention to my contacts that you had since gotten a NETeller account but will be sending a letter to them about it now. However if that sounds good to you as a payment method you should mention to them rather than wait for them to ask you (because my contacts are not the same as you are likely to be in touch with; and often times (the bonus $100 deal is a good example) ... the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing ... in the same time frame as you are going to have. meaning that if someone promises a $100 bonus, ... that it is then sent to another branch of the casino where after someone at that branch looks over the situation; they then add the bonus.

This can sit on somebody's desk for a few hours, even a day's time before it gets actually done and thus ends up making the casino look bad. * I've tried to get them to address this in the past but I think what happens is that the process gets better attention for a while but then people get less adamant and all of a sudden you have stuff sitting on their desks again for too long.

What I am always ultimately worried about is having casinos listed that are going to pay the big wins. The rest of it in my opinion is stuff that a person is likely to come across at any online casino at any given time. People are people and therefore you're going to come across those support agents which are nicer, more competent, etc. At any and all the casinos. Nothing much can be done about that.

Of course I realize my saying that and that fact you haven't yet been paid by jackpots is contradictory but I truly am confident they will get things made right for you. Hell I've already invested $200 in it and if that's not confidence I don't know what is? :).

so rest assured if they do fail you, in the end I'll pay up the difference. But please allow time for them to do so. And it will take a little time I'm afraid so don't lose faith.

Steve.
----- Original Message -----
From: David
To: steve from bondedcasinos.com
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with Check


Thanks for the response and you're right, Proc-Cyber is the company that cut the check drawn on a Canadian-Lebanese bank and the Bank of NY. I"ll hang in there and thanks for the Neteller money.

DAvid
----- Original Message -----
From: steve from bondedcasinos.com
To: David
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with Check


Hi David,

I have used a little detective common sense and found that you used the same email address at NETeller and have as such transferred to you the amount of $200 (I think it will come as like $196)

I feel this is enough of an effort on my part to have teeth and show that i am not going to let you down on this ... so please bare with me as I get it all made right.

Please know anything i send is from myself and nothing to do with the casino so please never confuse the two when in correspondence with the casino as we don't want to get those idiots (apparently from the competence they've shown so far) at the banking center any more reason to hold things up than already has been done.

I have forwarded your letter to my contacts and without having a reply from them to say for certain, I'm pretty sure that their banking is done thru Proc-Cyber or perhaps another of only a handful of institutes that all the casinos using the parent software Microgaming are using: and thus Jackpots isn't really to blame for the mistake on the check in respect to the fact it could have happened to any casino using that particular banking institute.

how the hell they arrived at putting that date on the check is beyond my imagination.

anyway, I know at least now that you've got some positive proof that I'm going to get this made right, and I very much appreciate your patience.

Highest Regards

Steve.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Steve, I give you full credit for going the distance to ensure that your player was looked after. Not all affiliates are so tenacious, or generous.

I don't doubt you when you say that you believe that upper management had no hand in this. But it's here where we disagree. Given what's come to light today, I will never be sold on the fact that this was the work of one overzealous employee. The company that owns the firm who did all this crap, is the same company who owns Jackpot Factory. End of story for me. But hey, I admire anyone whose convictions are as strong as mine, even if we don't agree. I also believe that some of that conviction of yours comes from confidence in Lloyd, and I really believe that the casino has put him out on the front lines for that very reason. He has the respect and trust of the affiliate community, who better to deal with this issue publicly? And yet, he's probably the one person who really didn't know this shit was going on. Sort of ironic.

Anyway, thanks for your post. You have more nerve than me, as I wouldn't post at CAP right now for all the tea in China. I'd feel like I was jumping into shark infested waters with a bleeding cut on my leg, lol.

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds, people's minds are more than likely already made up. What I do want to do is make sure that people do get the whole story, and that this doesn't get swept under the rug as no big deal.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
derelict said:
Nobody was going to believe that playing slots would cause their deceased pets to come back to life.
But someone with gambling problems could believe that the reason he has been losing is that he has been playing the wrong kind of slots, and once he starts playing JF slots he is guaranteed to win. Someone with desperate financial problems might fall for the stories about people giving up their jobs and making a living by gambling. Many of the stories were aimed at vulnerable people who might be clutching at straws and not be able to make a rational decision.
 

TheBloke

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Location
London
GrandMaster said:
But someone with gambling problems could believe that the reason he has been losing is that he has been playing the wrong kind of slots, and once he starts playing JF slots he is guaranteed to win. Someone with desperate financial problems might fall for the stories about people giving up their jobs and making a living by gambling. Many of the stories were aimed at vulnerable people who might be clutching at straws and not be able to make a rational decision.

Agreed. To put it more bluntly - most people are stupid. That's why they call a $5/min premium rate number when a letter arrives saying "You have won a $1m prize ... or a pebble"

Scammers, con-men, and advertising/marketing executives have made lots of money throughout history because of this.

Almost by definition, anyone reading these forums is not stupid. It's the rest of the world that we're trying to protect.
 

bb1webs

Webmaster
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
BondedCasinos.com
thanks Pina.

... and like I said; they're still on my poop list for bundling. So we can at least agree that we both have issue with them if nothing else. :)
 

derelict

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
....
GrandMaster said:
But someone with gambling problems could believe that the reason he has been losing is that he has been playing the wrong kind of slots, and once he starts playing JF slots he is guaranteed to win. Someone with desperate financial problems might fall for the stories about people giving up their jobs and making a living by gambling. Many of the stories were aimed at vulnerable people who might be clutching at straws and not be able to make a rational decision.

I know what you're saying, but in reading the stories, I didn't get the impression that they were written with the intent of being taken seriously. It was pointed out that the text was previously the same color as the background so as not to be readable. I would guess that some search engines had means to detect this trick, so the text was made human readable to appear legitimate to spiders.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with these methods, and particularly not the likes of the depression keywords, but I think it's important to look at the issue objectively. It's certainly possible that someone would have taken a story at face value, but I don't believe that was the intent.

Just sayin. Carry on.
 

dominique

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Location
The Boonies
Ok, I haven't posted on this because I have not decided what to do yet.

Some random thoughts:

I have not had player complaints for this group, with the exeption of two that were my own fault because I had an outdated bonus listed on my site.

I have not had affiliate complaints for this group except about an accounting method - bundling - that many other programs share.

I have played there myself and found nothing to complain about.

The SEO work they contracted was totally assinine and the writer should be shot.

It was so stupid it would likely have harmed them more than done them good and y'all did them a big favor catching this.

I can't imagine anyone believing any of that BS about playing slots.

They did move quickly to get rid of that stuff.

It really was the worst, immoral, unethical and idiotic dribble I have ever seen.
 

bb1webs

Webmaster
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
BondedCasinos.com
The company that owns the firm who did all this crap, is the same company who owns Jackpot Factory.

so you're saying they didn't outsource, but rather an employee did this? That still doesn't really surprise me that upper management didn't know what the employee was doing.

of course I don't know for certain, but I imagine the web design/upkeep is done by someone different than the person who manages the casino side of things and if that is true then for me ... its no big step to believe that ONCE AGAIN (because I've harped about this very thing to Lloyd, and now its finally come back to really, really bite them in the ass) that poor (and obviously tardy) communication combined with lack of double-checking before opening mouth ... has put JF exactly in the position they find themselves.

but its just too hard for me to buy that the owner read (that crap) and said, "wow what a really good idea to target people who would likely have no money". because from where I sit I would confidently say that anybody who is going to read and believe the likes of ... "play our slots and you will become rich, famous, .... and bring back any loved ones from the dead you may desire ..." is not going to have any considerable sum of money lol.

what to me is more believable is that somebody said make a lot of pages that have casino-related keywords in them ... and you should try to make the text something that isn't total random sentences which combined have no real point besides being a bunch of words strung together with the casino keywords placed amongst them.

So then some (in their own mind) rocket scientist gets ahold of the reigns and starts writing and ... well lets face it: there are only so many subjects which one can cover that relate to gambling .... and apparently this is what you get when those subjects are diminished. :)

true, its not the direction I personally would have chosen to forge ahead; but I can see where it might have been somebody else's.

If it had been me ... I could see writing stuff like that just out of boredom, mistakenly thinking that nobody was ever going to read them anyway ... what lost in amongst all those other (somewhat more legit) pages.

at the time when the text is being created: keeping in mind its a task that has been ordered to be done over and over and over again, merely changing the words which are not keyword important ... that the person writing it is apt to think "who is really going to be reading this? shoot its not like its going on the front page of a site ... its a SEO-created page not one that is created for people to be actually reading it.

and surprise! turns out those pages do get read after all.

That to me just makes more sense; and combined with what i already know for a fact about the way they communicate it totally fits for me.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
bb1webs said:
If it had been me ... I could see writing stuff like that just out of boredom, mistakenly thinking that nobody was ever going to read them anyway ... what lost in amongst all those other (somewhat more legit) pages.

Steve, have you read the other thread? They advertised for people to write this stuff, seriously. I'll find you the link, but it's on the last four or five pages of the thread. A company called Spinspark actually advertised for stay-at-home moms, etc. to send them "samples" to see what they could come up with.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada

Scooter7

Meister Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
dominique said:
Ok, I haven't posted on this because I have not decided what to do yet.

Some random thoughts:

I have not had player complaints for this group, with the exeption of two that were my own fault because I had an outdated bonus listed on my site.

I have not had affiliate complaints for this group except about an accounting method - bundling - that many other programs share.

I have played there myself and found nothing to complain about.

The SEO work they contracted was totally assinine and the writer should be shot.

It was so stupid it would likely have harmed them more than done them good and y'all did them a big favor catching this.

I can't imagine anyone believing any of that BS about playing slots.

They did move quickly to get rid of that stuff.

It really was the worst, immoral, unethical and idiotic dribble I have ever seen.


Re: Bold comments.

1. Quality of software and day to day customer service handling is a totally separate issue to the ethics issue that has rightly caused such an uproar. Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmiero are/were phenomenal baseball players, but they have both had their accomplishments tainted by steroid use accusations and/or proof. Great players, but people put a mental asterisk beside their achievements.

2. It's got nothing to do with belief or disbelief. People searching for information on serious issues are liable to be presented with completely off-topic gaming related material. Additionally, the people who would likely be making such a search are more likely to be easier targets to sell to. A good analogy would be setting up a crack-house near a junior high school. In fact, many U.S. cities have increased penalties for drug dealing in designated 'school zones' to protect those who are less likely to be able to protect themselves.

3. They said they were removing the offensive material, but forum members are finding and posting current links on a daily basis. Even if the JF rep was sincere about intending to remove the stories, the job isn't getting done.

I'm not flaming you here, just noting that you haven't made a decision on your personal course of action. If I can convince you to take a firmer stand on the issue, then I have succeeded in my personal course of action. I'm just a loud guy with a Don Quixote complex that writes reasonably well. :D
 

bb1webs

Webmaster
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
BondedCasinos.com
Hi again,

you know Pina I must have read the first 15 or 20 pages and then gave up because it was all or most was the same.

now after reading only a couple of pages (I think 30 and 31) ... well after reading that and viewing for instance ...

To: Job Applicant
From: Boaz Sassoon ("Vidal" to his friends)

Subject: Writing Sample


Dear Sir

Further to your recent application, please complete the following assignment in no more than twenty minutes.

You are required to write a brief story, about a one legged cross eyed leprosy sufferer who likes to play at All Slots casino. The more morally abhorrent and offensive the better.

It's important that whilst at the beginning of the story the main character seemingly has nowhere to turn, the introduction of All Slots casino should turn the characters life around and make everything better in the world and happy and rosy!

Please note: Extra credit will be given for indicating how playing at online casino's can prevent bankruptcy, unhappiness, criminal activity and death.

Good luck!

Boaz

It looks to me like from reading the above ... that they were shooting for a "tongue in cheek" approach ... much like some commercials you see on tv which make such outrageous and bold claims that nobody in their right mind would believe them .... and they didn't stop to think that since they are targeting the down on their luck that the outrageous claims might not be viewed as so outrageous: that they might actually believe.

Its just very hard for me to lend credibility to this whole situation since the text is so absurb.

Now that all said: even assuming they are guilty of knowingly using such tacky text: I don't have a big problem with them unless/until they don't pay somebody or their games are proven to not return random fair-odds results.

the thing is: is that if you are going to blacklist every program for having bad judgement, then in my opinion these programs are not only guilty of that: but also of intentionally setting out to break contracts they themselves made. And I'm speaking of Referback, Fortune and it seems like there was another,... oh I remember, and vegas partner. All three tried to change terms retroactively on contracts they held with us affiliates. In each case the programs were called on their actions and eventually (after considerable hell being raised) they made things right. And in my opinion breaking contracts is much worse than a tacky SEO campaign.

That is just a sample. Nearly every program at one time or another has been way out of line and then when we affiliates called them on it: they changed things back or made them right and affiliates kept on promoting them.

I have considered this heavily long before this issue ever came up and I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to have anything to list on my sites that i was gonna have to come down off my high horse .... so to speak.

That was when I decided to look for the most important aspects of a program and judge it accordingly ... from strictly a player's standpoint. Because ultimately that is what the player is concerned about.

And what is a player's biggest concern? Is it the casino's standing amongst the community (ie - whether or not the casino is using questionable SEO tactics), or is it that the player gets a fair-odds game and then IF able to beat the odds, get paid?

of course that answers itself.

JF's aff program doesn't do me any favors. That's why i only list them on the page where I list all the casinos i promote. they enjoy almost no other exposure.

But I can't see blacklisting them for this matter, as unsavory as it may be.

It would be different if they hadn't agreed to take down the offensive material. That would be a no-brainer reason.

But they've aknowledged and taken full responsibility for the matter, and as long as I don't find out they are still up to no-good a month from now; I won't be taking them down.

But I totally respect anybody else's decision to do so.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
... oh boy, my friend BB (long time no see!)

You better slow down and read again. That quote you made above was a post by someone making FUN of JF...

... and you know I wouldn't say this if I didn't mean it - but the proverbial garden path comes to mind. You are either being led wildly astray, or you have let your thinking be completely distracted by something else.

Please - for your own sake - study the evidence at hand.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
We also now have an indicator that JF may have been economical with the truth in its original reaction to this debacle, in which it claimed that the SEO work at the root of this evil was outsourced:

Quote from PinaBaby, substantiated by some cool sleuthing recently:

QUOTE:The company that owns the firm who did all this crap, is the same company who owns Jackpot Factory. End of story for me. UNQUOTE
 

bb1webs

Webmaster
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
BondedCasinos.com
I guess I am missing something Spear. *(its been a long couple of weeks. My grandfather passed away 2 days ago, and for the last 2 weeks I've been sitting up nights with him and then someone else took over for me in the mornings, but its still been a strain. so I admit I'm a bit off my usual.)

thus the reason you or anybody hasn't seen me around much lately.

Anyway, as I understand it, JF has created a bunch of SEO pages with silly text like ... play at allslots and win and you can dump your wife-beating husband, or we guarantee you will win and become rich by playing at allslots .

or stuff to that effect. Completely absurb text stuffed with keywords in an attempt to get some free traffic.

and then when caught although they took responsibility for the situation: they took too long to take down the offending pages.

what else am I missing?

I mean I admit its sleazy stuff but why doesn't JF deserve the same benefit of doubt that has often times been given to other programs which after being caught doing something questionable and they give some lame excuse? Unless somebody has positive proof that a decision was made by the upper management of JF to go ahead with this SEO campaign ... then when they claim not to have known, whether it was their company or somebody else's,... I just don't see where they don't deserve the same benefit of doubt as everybody else.

but I'll get some sleep and come back tomorrow and sort through this all again.

sorry if I was so off the mark.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
bb1webs said:
I guess I am missing something Spear. *(its been a long couple of weeks. My grandfather passed away 2 days ago, and for the last 2 weeks I've been sitting up nights with him and then someone else took over for me in the mornings, but its still been a strain. so I admit I'm a bit off my usual.)

Sorry to hear that; my condolences.

Anyway, as I understand it, JF has created a bunch of SEO pages with silly text like ... play at allslots and win and you can dump your wife-beating husband, or we guarantee you will win and become rich by playing at allslots .

or stuff to that effect. Completely absurb text stuffed with keywords in an attempt to get some free traffic.

No one has any argument with reasonable attempts to gain more traffic. However, the issue here is that they deliberately and maliciously targeted vulnerable people, and went out of their way to try and trick people into believing that they could get rich by playing online casinos.

I mean I admit its sleazy stuff but why doesn't JF deserve the same benefit of doubt that has often times been given to other programs which after being caught doing something questionable and they give some lame excuse? Unless somebody has positive proof that a decision was made by the upper management of JF to go ahead with this SEO campaign ... then when they claim not to have known, whether it was their company or somebody else's,... I just don't see where they don't deserve the same benefit of doubt as everybody else.

My question to you is - how in the world could anyone believe that this huge, malicious campaign could have been done WITHOUT the knowledge of the management? And not only that, how could it have gone unnoticed so long without them knowing?

Obviously the scale of this campaign alone makes it quite difficult to believe that it was a rogue employee.

Now - based on the evidence alone - it is very hard to believe their explanation in the first place. Naturally, I automatically checked with a number of other sources - and there is nothing to substantiate their claim that it was a rogue employee or employees that caused this problem.

Any other information I have is speculation - and typically confidential - but the sources are highly reliable in my opinion. I have not spoken of any of this additional information because I believe the truth will come out anyhow. And nearly all the evidence here has been gathered by other parties.

So, for me, it's simply a matter of putting two and two together. YMMV.
 
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