Question Is this possible? Or am I crazy?

[Fridayhigh]

random is random is random.
Some of us work on beliefs and feelings, some of us go by maths, facts and game mechanics.
Check the ask me anything thread and make up your own mind. Nearly every point is addressed (and re-addressed) there.
Is there rogue software and dodgy casinos? Sure.
Do the big well established casinos/providers bother? There's no point. There's already a built in edge..the maths take care of it for them without them having to stress it.

Random is random is random - NOT. Random does not exist. Even Ecogra does not support your so called maths, facts and game mechanics. And rightly so, they don't want to be sued. Most RNG's used in online gaming are primitive and outdated compared to those used in other industries. And even those used in the Scientific and Military community have their limitations.

Fact one: With random number generators (RNGs), there are no guarantees. We can only predict what will happen in practice.
This is not because the word ''randomness'' is involved but because the finitely many random numbers we produce and their transformed variates cannot fit every imaginable distribution well enough.
Every generator has its regularities which, ocassionally, may become deficiencies. Hence, in a given application, even reliable generators may fail

Fact two: Although there are no guarantees, there are mathematical safety-measures against wrong simulation results due to inappropriate random number generators.

"Statistically Acceptable" is subjective to the test used, the testing house qualifications, and the governing body/'jurisdiction. In other words the RNG, as with the RTP, and the game structure itself only have to be deemed FAIR. The UKGC is by far the fairest towards the player. The software provider in conjunction with the casinos and that particular jurisdiction and it's testing facilities are the ones that decide what fair is. Not the player, the player's only vote is with his money.

More surprisingly "Accredited sites are subject to regular monitoring of their operation and whilst eCOGRA makes its best endeavours, no representation of warrenty is given that the operation of any games at any accredited site is at "ALL" time in accordance with eGAP requirements" . . . and it goes on to say it doesnot take any responsibility whatsoever of any site they approved of and tested.

So it would be much wiser and beneficial to this site and Bryan if affiliate gatekeeper members were more truthful and just state the UKGC does the utmost to see the player based in the UK gets a fair gaming experience. And I believe they do. This cannot be said of all jurisdictions

 

[funnymunny]

This has been answered various times. Some casinos that have the same jackpot games usually use the same global jackpots. But some casinos have their own progressive amounts for some games. MG for example do not. They are all global. So every casino that have the mega moolah jackpots all have the same amounts. As for currency. I think there is also different jackpots for different currencies. But I am not fully sure on that aspect, someone else would need to post about that.

...

Re highlighted part, jackpots are typically held in the strongest currency (e.g. GBP / £). When you win a jackpot, you are paid in the currency you play in (e.g. USD / $). When a jackpot is won, the jackpot total is then reduced by the value of the currency the winning player plays in.

This thread (from 2012) also answers the same question .

 

[Alsetly]

i've always wondered too, as when you go into a casino you can see what's going on in front of you. For some reason that always adds more security even though a lot of scammers to it right under your nose. If a casino doesnt have the right RTP i'd hope webmasters like the meister would put them into rogue straight away anyway.

 

[trancemonkey]

Random is random is random - NOT. Random does not exist. Even Ecogra does not support your so called maths, facts and game mechanics. And rightly so, they don't want to be sued. Most RNG's used in online gaming are primitive and outdated compared to those used in other industries. And even those used in the Scientific and Military community have their limitations.

Fact one: With random number generators (RNGs), there are no guarantees. We can only predict what will happen in practice.
This is not because the word ''randomness'' is involved but because the finitely many random numbers we produce and their transformed variates cannot fit every imaginable distribution well enough.
Every generator has its regularities which, ocassionally, may become deficiencies. Hence, in a given application, even reliable generators may fail

Fact two: Although there are no guarantees, there are mathematical safety-measures against wrong simulation results due to inappropriate random number generators.

"Statistically Acceptable" is subjective to the test used, the testing house qualifications, and the governing body/'jurisdiction. In other words the RNG, as with the RTP, and the game structure itself only have to be deemed FAIR. The UKGC is by far the fairest towards the player. The software provider in conjunction with the casinos and that particular jurisdiction and it's testing facilities are the ones that decide what fair is. Not the player, the player's only vote is with his money.

More surprisingly "Accredited sites are subject to regular monitoring of their operation and whilst eCOGRA makes its best endeavours, no representation of warrenty is given that the operation of any games at any accredited site is at "ALL" time in accordance with eGAP requirements" . . . and it goes on to say it doesnot take any responsibility whatsoever of any site they approved of and tested.

So it would be much wiser and beneficial to this site and Bryan if affiliate gatekeeper members were more truthful and just state the UKGC does the utmost to see the player based in the UK gets a fair gaming experience. And I believe they do. This cannot be said of all jurisdictions

We use the Mersenne-Twister (similar version to the SFMT-variant) in most games. It's accepted by all the homologation laboratories, including those for the strictest of jurisdictions. So yes, it's not TRULY random, but it's more than random enough to be unbeatable and pass all testing criteria. As you say, it's all about "fairness" and making sure the games are not predictable (unlike some famous Novo machines).

However, this statement "Even Ecogra does not support your so called maths, facts and game mechanics." makes little sense, so feel free to expand on how eCogra don't support it. If you're stating that they will not guarantee the maths are fair, well of course they won't - they are not GLI or NMI or BMI and have not undertaken the tests required to prove it.

 

[Fridayhigh]

We use the Mersenne-Twister (similar version to the SFMT-variant) in most games. It's accepted by all the homologation laboratories, including those for the strictest of jurisdictions. So yes, it's not TRULY random, but it's more than random enough to be unbeatable and pass all testing criteria. As you say, it's all about "fairness" and making sure the games are not predictable (unlike some famous Novo machines).

However, this statement "Even Ecogra does not support your so called maths, facts and game mechanics." makes little sense, so feel free to expand on how eCogra don't support it. If you're stating that they will not guarantee the maths are fair, well of course they won't - they are not GLI or NMI or BMI and have not undertaken the tests required to prove it.

Ecogra's so called "white papers" can be found on line, confidential of course and I am not at liberty to link or state them according to forum rules here. But I am sure with a Tor browser you will find what I am referring to with little trouble. But people make too big a deal about the RNG, when the game structure can be changed on a whim. Leading to a bonus round that constitutes 30 percent of the RTP, and a reload later of the same game accounting for say 70 percent and base game only 30 etc. this could leave anyone blaming the RTG which is working perfectly random so to speak. Changing the virtual Reel (par sheet) has a greater impact on players then even the RTP or RNG, as bonus rounds have become an anticipated (addicting) force in modern slots. And that ability to change constitutes a fairness which is very subjective. . . . . Regarding Ecogra's generally accepted practices (eGAP) Nothing I stated above would be contrary to it, The closest would be under software development and maintenance ; 9.37 . .Reports shall be generated for all changes made to game parameters. This is vague and does not discount any changes.

 

[trancemonkey]

Ecogra's so called "white papers" can be found on line, confidential of course and I am not at liberty to link or state them according to forum rules here. But I am sure with a Tor browser you will find what I am referring to with little trouble. But people make too big a deal about the RNG, when the game structure can be changed on a whim. Leading to a bonus round that constitutes 30 percent of the RTP, and a reload later of the same game accounting for say 70 percent and base game only 30 etc. this could leave anyone blaming the RTG which is working perfectly random so to speak. Changing the virtual Reel (par sheet) has a greater impact on players then even the RTP or RNG, as bonus rounds have become an anticipated (addicting) force in modern slots. And that ability to change constitutes a fairness which is very subjective. . . . . Regarding Ecogra's generally accepted practices (eGAP) Nothing I stated above would be contrary to it, The closest would be under software development and maintenance ; 9.37 . .Reports shall be generated for all changes made to game parameters. This is vague and does not discount any changes.

Except games don't change pay sheets on a whim... So that's just pure rubbish and tin foil hattery

 

[Fridayhigh]

2a

Except games don't change pay sheets on a whim... So that's just pure rubbish and tin foil hattery

PAR Sheets , I think you mean, and RTG do it routinely, pretty common, and it goes against no jurisdiction or governing body not do so. So I'll keep my woolly hat on if you don't mind.

 

[funnymunny]

2a

PAR Sheets , I think you mean, and RTG do it routinely, pretty common, and it goes against no jurisdiction or governing body not do so. So I'll keep my woolly hat on if you don't mind.

You've previously quoted an eCORA white paper & then state RTG don't abide by their guidelines... RTG aren't accredited or approved by eCOGRA (see

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) or use their services for game approvals, so unless any Regulator their licensees are governed by Regulators that stipulate it, there's no reason why they would comply with eCOGRA.

The RTG business model also allows for the use of their software in countries which other (arguably more reputable) providers avoid. A lot of that has to do with the legality of the activity. Read into that what you will, but I think this could be a reflection of their views on sticking to the rules.


Trance has previously stated, games don't change pay sheets on a whim - based on his experience and knowledge, I think it's safe to assume he's referring to games from reputable providers that steer clear of black markets.

 

[SpinUk]

2a


PAR Sheets , I think you mean, and RTG do it routinely, pretty common, and it goes against no jurisdiction or governing body not do so. So I'll keep my woolly hat on if you don't mind.

2a


PAR Sheets , I think you mean, and RTG do it routinely, pretty common, and it goes against no jurisdiction or governing body not do so. So I'll keep my woolly hat on if you don't mind.

Apart from RTG, who lets be honest operate all areas of their business in very grey areas of legality, have you got any evidence of other providers/casinos doing this? Even from hearsay?

 

[Fridayhigh]

You've previously quoted an eCORA white paper & then state RTG don't abide by their guidelines... RTG aren't accredited or approved by eCOGRA (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) or use their services for game approvals, so unless any Regulator their licensees are governed by Regulators that stipulate it, there's no reason why they would comply with eCOGRA.

The RTG business model also allows for the use of their software in countries which other (arguably more reputable) providers avoid. A lot of that has to do with the legality of the activity. Read into that what you will, but I think this could be a reflection of their views on sticking to the rules.


Trance has previously stated, games don't change pay sheets on a whim - based on his experience and knowledge, I think it's safe to assume he's referring to games from reputable providers that steer clear of black markets.

Unless the UKGC has changed their rules again, it goes against NO software provider to have a multiple of game engines for the same game, and matter of fact they do. Many software providers have multiple game engines with regard to RTP for different jurisdictions and as such have multiple game engines of the same game with the same RTP. Each one has to reported and approved as an individual game nonetheless But to the end user the customer, the name of the game and interface is neither changed or displayed any different, except in the case of RTP requirement to display by a jurisdiction. A different game engine with the same RTP, need not have a different pay table, That virtual reel stop will still show a physical reel stop matching the exact payout as before. What percentage of the game engine that particular virtual stop plays in the games overall RTP will not be available to the user. and never will. Unless they are privy to that particular par sheet of the particular game engine being loaded at that particular time.

 

[Fridayhigh]

Unless the UKGC has changed their rules again, it goes against NO software provider to have a multiple of game engines for the same game, and matter of fact they do. Many software providers have multiple game engines with regard to RTP for different jurisdictions and as such have multiple game engines of the same game with the same RTP. Each one has to reported and approved as an individual game nonetheless But to the end user the customer, the name of the game and interface is neither changed or displayed any different, except in the case of RTP requirement to display by a jurisdiction. A different game engine with the same RTP, need not have a different pay table, That virtual reel stop will still show a physical reel stop matching the exact payout as before. What percentage of the game engine that particular virtual stop plays in the games overall RTP will not be available to the user. and never will. Unless they are privy to that particular par sheet of the particular game engine being loaded at that particular time.

There are firms that employ such architecture which account for this in todays multiplatform casinos. And state openly so, if the software provider offers them and the casino wishes to incorporate them.

 

[trancemonkey]

Unless the UKGC has changed their rules again, it goes against NO software provider to have a multiple of game engines for the same game, and matter of fact they do. Many software providers have multiple game engines with regard to RTP for different jurisdictions and as such have multiple game engines of the same game with the same RTP. Each one has to reported and approved as an individual game nonetheless But to the end user the customer, the name of the game and interface is neither changed or displayed any different, except in the case of RTP requirement to display by a jurisdiction. A different game engine with the same RTP, need not have a different pay table, That virtual reel stop will still show a physical reel stop matching the exact payout as before. What percentage of the game engine that particular virtual stop plays in the games overall RTP will not be available to the user. and never will. Unless they are privy to that particular par sheet of the particular game engine being loaded at that particular time.

i can't work out if you simply don't know what you're talking about, you have experience in some grey / black markets where (and i know they exist) some software can do this (like RTG), or you are just totally misinformed.

However there are no games providers I'm aware of that produce multiple variants of the same RTP. It's pointless, costly and has no benefit. Random games swing enough and go hot and cold just purely because of random. They don't need to do this.

There are without question places where illegal, dodgy software is used. And I wouldn't like to comment on what they get up to... but for all the major providers it just simply isn't worth it.

Just on RTG - Why do you think RTG have their games badged as Blueprint in the UK online sector...it's because they simple can't get a UK licence.

 

[Fridayhigh]

i can't work out if you simply don't know what you're talking about, you have experience in some grey / black markets where (and i know they exist) some software does this, or you are just totally misinformed.

That's for you to decide, it's neither here or there for me. What is - is what is. Many that are employed in this business are on a need to know basis, and rightly so. Anyway good luck, nearly the 17 and time for a drink. I enjoyed the conversation, but the weekend is now here.