Is this player entitled to a payout?

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
IMO:

1) The first account woud be paid in full by a reputable operator.
2) The second account would normally just have deposits refunded and winnings confiscated.

If the player has a chat transcript that shows he said he was going to open a 2nd account and there was no objection, I think he might have a slim case if he went down a legal route myself. However, standard practice as everyone has pointed out doesn't allow this so I think it would be futile.

It would be reasonable to expect to receive back everything that was legitimately accrued from the first account prior to the 2nd account being opened and deposits from the 2nd account. A sportsbook that doesn't do this is of questionable repute in my opinion.
 

babyjoker

Dormant account
Joined
May 1, 2014
Location
UK
as an experienced sports gambler, me and a friend noticed our max bet amounts were being reduced on the sport we win on alot and immediately indentified we were winning too much for the bookies liking, what did we do? We went to another bookie and bet there, the thought of opening another account to get a new players limits at the SAME place seems obsurd, let alone taking a new player bonus on the account lol

I have no idea how they should deal with it but it seems very odd that an intelligent capable gambler would risk there bankroll in that manner, it's a gamble that you will more often lose than win.
 

gokkie

Senior Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Location
Netherlands
Imo the player should have asked for a written permission from the casino which states he is allowed to open a second account to play on untill the 'problems' on his first account are fixed.
However why not open a new account at another casino. If the player is in any way experienced, he should be with a balance of over 15k, it is a big mistake to open a second account. Why take the risk????:confused: This what I really do not understand at all...

From the info so far, I think he should get refunded the winnings on his first account before he opened te second account. Everything won on both accounts after he opened the second account should be voided, only deposit returned.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
If the player is in any way experienced, he should be with a balance of over 15k, it is a big mistake to open a second account. Why take the risk????:confused: This what I really do not understand at all...

one word: greed...he took the (apparent) SUB on the 2nd account...$500 worth..
 

partyhummel

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Location
betty ford clinic
management is always responsible for actions (or non actions) of the staff!!!!

reputable companies take responsibility for their staff. which means - if the player can prove the non complaint of support staff about opening a new account BECAUSE THE CASINO WAS HAVING ISSUES(!!!) - then the casino would have to pay. acceptable was a reduction of the balance at the second account in relation deposit to bonus because it was granted as a mistake i guess.

One man one word. if a casino redpresentative (and support staff represents the casino!) cantbe hold responsible for the actions they can trick and betray players however they like.

btw - i am very interested in the name of the company in this case...
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
reputable companies take responsibility for their staff. which means - if the player can prove the non complaint of support staff about opening a new account BECAUSE THE CASINO WAS HAVING ISSUES(!!!) - then the casino would have to pay. acceptable was a reduction of the balance at the second account in relation deposit to bonus because it was granted as a mistake i guess.

One man one word. if a casino redpresentative (and support staff represents the casino!) cantbe hold responsible for the actions they can trick and betray players however they like.

btw - i am very interested in the name of the company in this case...


again, proof is needed. And besides, I still say we're not getting the whole story. The player tried to defraud the sportsbook, so I take his words with a grain of salt.
 

irishgilly

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Location
I live in the Pacific Northwest.
Is This Player Entitled to...

Dang! I am so sorry I missed replying to this when it counted, I was having trouble logging in due to some glitch with my password, so I opened a second account...lol, jk...I can't think of one single common sense reason that the sportsbook would confiscate his legal funds from the first account. Yes, he seems to be an extraordinarily lucky winner, but as any gambler can tell you, no one is lucky all the time, so if they were concerned about losing a lot of money to the player, well that was pretty short sighted on their part. The player should not only be allowed to keep the funds with his first account, he should be allowed to continue to play there. The second account should not be paid, the player knew damned well that he had no right to accept another welcome bonus when he had all ready accepted one. Any winnings resulting from that second bonus belong to the sportsbook as they were obtained under false pretenses. The sportsbook is definitely responsible for any mistakes made by their support crew, but since it was a phone conversation the player cannot even prove it took place. I do think that any deposited funds from the second account should be returned to the player, but as for the winnings- not at all. I really have a problem with all casinos and any other betting venue that allows a player to open a second account. It can and does happen by accident. I keep a book so that this does not happen to me, but I started keeping a book because it did happen to me a couple of times. My fault, yes, BUT- in this day and age any gambling venue has the ability to use some software that recognizes a gamblers I.P. addy. They should use this to prevent a person from opening a second account for any reason. It is my personal opinion that they allow second accounts just so that they can claim "breach of contract" and confiscate a persons winnings if they don't feel like paying. It aggravates the hell out of me that all of the gambling venues allow a second account to be opened when they could easily prevent one from being opened by a person using the same I.P. address. That's my story and i Am sticking to it :)
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
I do not get it

Player broke all the rules. Period. He is entitled to NOTHING. It is amazing how so many say sports book should do this , sports book should do that, if it is a legit casino, but yet...the player broke all the rules. Why in the world does anyone think he should be rewarded with ANYTHING for doing something that is totally wrong??? I mean...really???

Player is entitled to nothing, just as you or I would be entitled to nothing if we broke the rules. He took monies offered in good faith as a bonus and decided...he wanted more...well he deserves all monies confiscated and ONLY his deposit back if at all.

I don't think he should get that back because he KNOWINGLY did what he did thinking he would get by with it...it affects all players when one does such things and we are all looked at like we are trying to rip casinos off by getting bonuses. Many real players, faithful players have been bonus banned for following the rules but yet, what I see here bogles my mind....So many think he should be REWARDED for doing something so wrong....Those that do feel that he should get back funds is WRONG in so many ways.

.
 

Ragnaros

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Location
America
Given it's clearly Bovada we're talking about here, I will easily stand with the casino on this one. Bovada is by far the best casino I've dealt with in my experiences with US facing casinos.
 

Ragnaros

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Location
America
I found an article on google regarding players like this and their relationship to sportbooks
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


I agree with winbig, looks like player clearly knew his limits were not "technical glitch" and decided to open a second account to circumvent it.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Ragnaros, thank you for the link about sportsbooks limiting bets for sharp bettors. I'm not a sports bettor, so I didn't know about that. My guess now is that his bets were indeed intentionally limited, and that the Support agents he talked to were simply clueless.

BTW, the player mentioned to me that the operator records Support calls, so he thinks there should be audio evidence to back up his claims his claims that Support told him repeatedly that his bets weren't intentionally limited, and that they didn't object when he talked about opening a second account.

Many of you are insistent that the player knew he shouldn't open a second account, but that's not so clear to me. He says he didn't read the fine print, and *openly advised Support* that he was going to open the second account, both of which are certainly possible. It may be that he *did* know, but I don't think any of us really know what he knew or didn't, one way or the other.

Before I started this thread, my position was the one that Simmo! then articulated, and I've seen nothing here to change my mind:

(1) The operator should pay the first account, or at least the $4k from the first account that he had at the time he opened the 2nd account. ($6k when the 2nd acct. was opened, less a subsequent $2k withdrawal)

(2) The operator should refund the deposit from the second account.

This assumes that the player has relayed all the details accurately, of course. I won't be surprised if they haven't been.

I've written to the operator, and I'm waiting to hear back. I'll let you all know how it goes.
 

Ragnaros

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Location
America
Regarding your earlier question on why so many people here answer in terms of what's allowed in the T&C. Well, it just seems that in online mediation industry T&Cs are all that ever mattered. T&C violations = automatic no case for the player, unless the T&Cs were vague/predatory.

I remember reading a quite extreme case here some months ago. A player deposited and got his winnings confiscated at Club world(?) because of a wrong phone number. The player already spoke to the casino on the phone and verified, so many people asked "what difference does it make", and the answer is absolutely nothing. But since the T&Cs said casino can confiscate funds if player's phone number is incorrect, the casino indeed kept the money.

I don't think people here purposely gave you "legal answers" instead of their personal opinions. It's probably just due to everyone's past experiences personal opinions never mattered and T&Cs trumps all at the end of the day.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
He says he didn't read the fine print
You really believe this? For someone so good at sports book in the amount he won in such a short time..... you would think he would read every line on every page to make sure he did not misstep to jeopardize any of his funds...but he blatantly went and opened another account because his betting was decreased by the casino (his own words)...

I would not touch this one at all simply because it will lower your stance in the casinos eyes when you have a true problem you need to deal with to help an honest player.....

I will be interested in knowing the final result as everyone else is.

.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
You really believe this?

No. What I *actually* said about this was, "I don't think any of us really know what he knew or didn't, one way or the other."

silcnlayc said:
I would not touch this one at all simply because it will lower your stance in the casinos eyes when you have a true problem you need to deal with to help an honest player.....

(1) I don't *know* that the player is being dishonest (and neither do you).

(2) Whether he knew about the restriction on multiple accounts or not is irrelevant to the point that he's owed the winnings on his first account plus his deposit on the second (assuming his timeline and $ figures are correct). I take up his case for that reason alone.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Case Closed

I spoke with the operator. They referred me to another part of their Terms of Service:
6.2. Fraudulent Activity. If, in our reasonable discretion, we determine that a player has engaged in fraudulent, unlawful, dishonest or improper activity (including, without limitation, the provision of false or deliberately misleading information), we reserve the right to immediately terminate or deny a player access to their Account. In such event, all Account balances (including both deposits and any winnings) shall be forfeited and we reserve the right to disclose information (including the identity of the player) to applicable parties including but not limited to; the Gaming Commission, banks, credit card companies and/or any person or entity that has the legal right to such information, and/or taking legal action against such player.

However, they say they typically don't confiscate deposits anyway even though they can, and they didn't do so in this case, either: Player made a total of $1250 in deposits, and $2500 in withdrawals.

They also say that:
(1) Player didn't advise CS that he would open a second account, he said that he would have "a friend" open an account.
(2) The second account had an address in a different state, but it was really the same player.
(3) The player did an extreme amount of past-posting. (Don't ask for more details, I don't have them.)

They said that if the player is unhappy they can take it up with the gaming commission where the operator is licensed.

I believe the operator. Incidentally, I was skeptical of the player from the beginning because he opened with, "You have been listing Bovada as the top site for online sports wagering...", when actually I do no such thing: I advertise casino only, not sports.

Those of you who doubted the player, you were right. I was skeptical but reserved judgement until I heard both sides of the story. Now that I've heard both sides, I believe the operator. They're more credible.

Thank you very much to everyone who weighed in on this case.
 

givi2me

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Location
adelaide
a question in regards to opening another account

was just wondering in relation to opening the second account, how was this attained as to my knowledge the system software on any up to date software in the gambling industry will not even let you create another account in the same name, date of birth,email,and so on. If any of these details are matched the software denies the account being opened anyway and the only way around opening another account would be to provide some sort of fraudulant information to open it ?would it not? if this is the case anything to do with the second account is void and deemed fraudulant i would think and may lay question to any winnings made at all in the first account.I think more information would be required hear to make any word of advice really,but just a thought
 

Ragnaros

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Location
America
They also say that:
(1) Player didn't advise CS that he would open a second account, he said that he would have "a friend" open an account.
(2) The second account had an address in a different state, but it was really the same player.
(3) The player did an extreme amount of past-posting. (Don't ask for more details, I don't have them.)

oh lmao, this is hard core fraud in every way possible. Gotta say, for Bovada to act this way the player almost certainly must be at fault.
 

asm

Experienced Member
PABinit
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Location
Finland
There are some things that I find very fishy in this one.

I find it kind of incredible that someone can win enough from a book and get limited and:

1)not understand he is being limited
2)opening a second account

I've had my share of limits from sportsbooks back when I practically made my livelihood from sports betting. When you get limited, it is ABSOLUTELY the time to withdraw all funds and never look back. No exceptions. If they're not f***ing you out of your money, it's pretty certain that you will never get any reasonable action anyway.

Besides, if you're the kind of guy that bets a lot and consistently makes money out of it, there's a handful of places (which I won't mention because I'm not in the advertising business) that do not limit you and offer better odds, that are considered very reliable in the industry.
 
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